In the event that something looked strange on your account the 'HSBC Fraud Department' would text you and ask them to call you on a phone number.

A phone number that didn't appear anywhere on their website. "We don't want it public.

OK,well at least put it on a non-linked page so that if you SEARCH for the number on the website search tool, it returns a page with the number on "Well, I suppose that's an idea I could pass on".

Even when I said to them "You are training your customers to accept potentially fraudulent text messages" they didn't get it.

Infuriating.

When I told them I wasn't comfortable doing this, they reiterated that this was the only way my credit card would be restored immediately and once I hung up the phone I would no longer have this option. They did give me another way to verify, they would send me an email to a web portal I could upload the photos to. After uploading I would have to wait 7-10 business days for them to review and restore my card.

Thankfully, I had another credit card I could use. I did submit via the web form after doing my best to make sure it was legit. Weeks later my credit card wasn't restored. When I later called them, it was immediately restored after a few simple questions. I sent an email to their security department describing how weird and sketchy this process was and I never got a response.

I believe some banks even skip the call entirely, and just prompt you to call the number on the card.

However the scammers don't hang up they just play a fake dial tone so the victim dials the number thinking they're contacting their bank but they're actually just speaking to the scammers again

In the Netherlands, in the 80s-00s at least, hanging up cleared your line, so picking it up again would get you a fresh dialtone even if the other side didn't hang up (and the other side would get a modified "busy" signal if you hung up on them).

I personally recall people ocassionally being able to hang up one phone before picking up a different phone if they wanted to take the call in a diffent location in the house. Although, I don't remember it ever being very effective, over time (in my corner of the US), it became never effective, so you'd just leave the first phone off the hook and have to hang it up later.

On your smartphone, it's easier to not fall in this trap, as the screen is making it harder to type a phone number while the call is still going.

It used to be the case that the party who made the call - being the party who is paying for it - was solely responsible for terminating it; then timeouts were introduced; and on many landline exchanges there is still a timeout before the call is actually terminated if the callee hangs up but the caller does not - although these days it is just a few seconds, that may still be long enough that you stay connected to the original caller if you hang up then immediately try to place a call.

Google "called party clear" for gory details.

I also wonder if it's a contract call center or fraud prevention company and the caller ID value was just bad... at some point their phone number may have gotten put on a listing for one of the banks that uses them and now it's stuck in the Google Caller ID database or whatever. Google's caller ID is frequently pretty out of date and it's unclear how you would get it fixed (e.g. my husband has had his phone number for years and Android phones still show someone else's name when he calls).

With Citi: * it's non-native-English support. No judgement of course but I don't appreciate the language barrier when the entire job of customer support is communication. * Support generally seems to be very low-context and low-power. The person you talk to generally can't actually do anything, only escalate. * Support seems very disjointed and prone to missing details.

I was burned by Citi support in a pretty big way:

1. I was moving cross-state, and we were selling (under contract) our old house and not yet closed on the new one. In between, we were living with my parents.

2. Literally the first day we were at my parents, some fraudy charges showed up on my citi card. I called, they cancelled the card, etc. I told them I was not currently at my address on file, I was at my parents, is this OK, etc. They said yes, that's fine, they'll send replacement cards to the new address. I very specifically verified with them that they were sending them to the right place, and the person even got a little tired of me being so tight about it. Ok, I figured, I feel like I've gone above and beyond on my end to make sure this works right.

3. 2 days later, I see on my security camera that the old cards have been delivered to the front door of the old house, 300 miles away.

4. I call back, and they tell me they don't see any record of me having requested a different address. Sigh. I ask if they can cancel those cards and re-send them to the right address this time. They say yes, we go through the loop again, etc.

5. I wait a day or two and no cards show up at either location. I call back again. I get told there's no record I asked to cancel these cards or re-send them. This rep finally tells me they can't re-issue the cards again so soon, and need to wait 5 more days. In the meantime, these active cards are just sitting on my porch in a big envelope that says "CITI - URGENT - PLEASE STEAL ME" written all over it.

And, you know, I really needed to use this card since I was trying to buy appliances for the new house.

I ended up resolving this by just making an extra trip back to the old house anyway just to finish cleaning it up and to grab the cards since I needed to go one more time anyway. I called back to make sure they weren't going to cancel these cards, and of course there was no record I'd ever asked to cancel them, etc.

Compare this to AMEX support. Native english speakers, they seem to have the power to actually just fix things for me, etc.

So, while I still use my citi card just to keep the credit line open, my Amex card is my pinch hitter and cornerstone.

In the UK the tax-free savings account allowance is per tax year. I paid the money into a not-so-great bank offering excellent rates a few days before the deadline one year and called to create a savings account. Weeks later they've got no record of the savings account, and when I call they explain I'm too late now for "last year's" allowance. I point out that I made the transaction before the deadline and they explain that oops, sadly they don't have that call recorded, and so there's no evidence I actually authorised account creation back then. So I play back my recording, and what do you know, suddenly the bank has a new explanation for what went wrong and wants to pay me compensation for their mistake in not making the account.

A better bank would have eaten the cost of this mistake up front of course, but I already knew this was a lousy bank, that's why they're offering by far the best rates. To attract customers despite the reputation.

I have more than a few credit cards, and I've never encountered a card issuer in the US that mails active cards. All of them require some sort of activation process before they can be used. That way, it doesn't matter if they're stolen.

The current "We don't need you to tell us where you're going we can figure it out" leads to me getting locked out 100% of the time i use the banking app on my phone with the VPN on and then try to use the card at a nearby store. Obviously there's two different sources of my location incoming and that causes issues.

I guess it's an edge case to have a VPN on your phone but it's very very frustrating.

One large bank I do business with doesn't care, or recognizes that pre-'rona I used to do a lot of international travel.

Another large bank I do business with locks me out if I'm on VPN.

I also suspect it has to do with bank balances. The more money I have in my accounts, the better customer service I get, even to the point of them answering the phone more quickly.

It also seems to help to have a business account with a bank, too. I get all kinds of free perks on my personal accounts with the bank I do my business banking with.

You pretty much have to these days, preferably with the second one being from a different bank and potentially different payment processor. Between random fraud triggers and cards being frozen because of fraudulent charges or attempts, you really need a backup.

I've never had trouble dealing with the problem by phone but I'm still out the credit card in a foreign city for a few days and I may not even be at a location where I can easily have something sent to me.

Then a month later, Amex mailed me a check for the money I paid because it had no account to credit it to, because it cancelled the account.

To be fair, I did because my card had been rejected literally 30 seconds before while trying to make a purchase. But it was only after the phone call ended that I realised what I had done. I phoned them back on a number listed on their website, asked them to confirm that I had indeed spoken with HSBC fraud detection, and they confirmed. I then lambasted them for asking me all the questions they tell their customers never to answer.

They're just training their customers to give out information, and even alert customers like myself can sometimes have a moment of panic and comply.

I've supported a call center. We had specific escalation routes where problems could be sent to higher levels. The most obvious is the "I want to talk to your manager" escalation, but the agents, managers, and QC agents could push buttons that flagged additional review.

My advice for getting attention: don't be rude (EVERYONE is rude, this won't get any one's attention), be CLEAR about the problem AND solution, evoke emotion in the listener (remember, the listener is a QC person who reviews the call days later)

Try something like: I'm on vacation and my daughter was REALLY looking to see a musical. Do you have kids? Mine LOVE Beauty and the Beast - she has her backpack and t shirt, she is adorable. Every time we try to buy a ticket, it gets rejected. I think I forgot to notify you that I'm traveling. I'm so sorry - it just slipped my mind!

[1] https://www.hsbc.co.uk/help/security-centre/report-a-problem...

[I just learned that the FCC is considering not allowing calls made outside the US to be spoofed as numbers originating inside the US. I thought that was the whole point behind STIR/SHAKEN, silly me].

"A fraudulent transaction has been detected on your credit card no. *1234, please call the number written on the back of your card", and you're done.

People usually get scammed when they have the card with them... when they lose the card, they're the one actively looking for a phone number, and not presented with one from a scammer.

- "Can you send me back the card?"

- "I'm in a train, I won't be able to do that for a while. You should really call"

- "But I don't have the number"

- "I can read it to you"

Pwn

That my bank insists on using essentially now public information now to verify (and refuses to use anything else, even after being repeatedly asked!) is also infuriating. Last 4 of SSN and DOB? Really?

Additionally, bank account ‘internal’ account numbers are pasted on every check that goes out and any ACH transfers also include that information, so it’s not like they are hard to cross reference with any of the other major breaches.

SSN, dob, which banks people use (and other financial institutions), which loans they have with whom, etc. also got leaked for pretty much every US adult with the equifax hack.

Other banks purposely break my password manager so I have a high chance of pasting my password into a phishing site because I am in a habit of pasting my password for that bank.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/09/stop--hang-up...

I mentioned to a fewer older family members and they were all for a simple number to call.

You were talking to a call centre worker making close to minimum wage and who's job is to get shouted at by customers all day. Even if they wanted to help you, their opinion would count for nothing.

No wonder they didn't give a shit.

I can't verify that the text is from Natwest, but it seems relatively safe, as I'm not providing any personal information in return, so this seems a reasonable first line security mechanism. Of course someone could clone my SIM, in which case there's no protection, but it does raise the bar for using a stolen cards, and I think that's the intent.

If my bank ever does call me, they have to leave voicemail because I don't answer calls from unknown numbers. And then I call back using the number on the back of the card.

Because they poor person on the phone gets dinged for not completing the transaction. You doing the right thing causes them to look bad in the computer-tallied automated productivity tracking tool.

Call center employee metrics are absolutely brutal.

Some reasons why Brits might be so so vulnerable:

* Major: English speaking so common to be targeted from less affluent ex-commonwealth countries.

* Major: Ageing population have most of the wealth.

* Major: Lots of vulnerable victims online and relatively high social media engagement.

* Major: Little fear of retaliation (other than Jim Browning). The UK is having less of an engagement in global policing (due to leaving Brexit) and has less reach as a consequence

* Minor: Degrading international relations. Less empathy shown towards Brits due to somewhat inward looking foreign policies over the past decades.

* Minor: Growing economic disparity causing a glut of "get rich quick" victims.

Honestly I think Jim Browning is showing how this problem is solved and is probably having a 100x impact over the average bank worker. The Banks should be funding him and others like him.

For those that don't know who Jim is, he does awesome work in identifying scammers and working with the local / relevant authorities into shutting their services down.

> While security experts and senior bankers said many fraud attacks could be traced overseas - including from India and West Africa - Britain is also increasingly exporting attacks.

> ...

> "It's popular to say the fraud threat is imported into the UK, and I don't think that bears analysis," said NECC's Reed. "There is a significant UK nexus to a lot of fraud, our operational experience is showing that."

The police in the UK have a very poor track record of actually dealing with bank fraud. The nature of the crime, and way UK policing works, means there's a significant number of disincentives to actually investigating bank fraud. Two of the biggest showstoppers is location/jurisdiction and training, which police force should investigate? The one where the victim lives, or the one where the criminal lives? Police training focuses almost entirely on crimes with a physical element, if someone robbed your store, then the police know how to help. If they rob your bank account, they haven't foggiest on where to start that kind of investigation.

Additionally each individual case of fraud tends to be for small amounts (thousands to tens of thousands), so are frequently ignored. It's only in aggregate that the sums become meaningful to police, but they rarely consider fraud on anything other than a case-by-case basis. The result, as a bank we can tell the police exactly who commited a crime, where they live, what they look like, where they eat breakfast, what their social media handles are etc, and nothing will happen. The report and all the data vanishes into the blackhole known as the NCA.

There was a period when almost every day I had Royal Mail drop through my letterbox envelopes containing various fake documents (passports, driving licences, National Insurance letters, ID cards from various EU counties). Someone was mailing those from a nearby post office and putting my address on the back of the envelopes as the sender. A fraction could not be delivered and got returned to the "sender", some having travelled to, and returned from, other countries.

I reported this several times, both to Action Fraud and to the police. At some point I spent an entire Friday evening sitting at a local police station, thinking that, if I brought the documents to them in person, the police would be less inclined to think I was some crackpot making the whole thing up. I also thought that the fact the documents were being mailed from a post office across the road from the police station might pique their interest (the letters had tracking numbers and so I could look up their journeys on the Royal Mail web site).

In the end this turned out to be a waste of time. The front-office police person were clearly pretty unhappy with having to deal with this, but escalated to someone who "knew more about these things". The latter applied the investigative method of typing "Portuguese driving licence" into Google Image Search and comparing the results with one of the licences I gave them. After a further escalation to an even more specialised officer, the conclusion was that the documents were indeed fake.

I got a crime reference number and a clear indication that I would never hear from them again, which I indeed haven't.

Still have all the docs (the police didn't want to keep them). They stopped coming after a while.

a few weeks ago my car was hit and the driver just drove off without stopping to give details (hit and run) the incident was caught on my dashcam inc car reg plate and faces.

After informing the police on 101 - they said sorry they do not investigate hit and run anymore unless a serious injury has occured - no resources available

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56529359

That's one of the complications with our data sharing with the EU; they have agreements to share data with non-EU countries on the basis that their data is only shared within the EU, which we are now not. Therefore the EU can't grant us access to databases containing that data until we/they have permission from these other countries. We will, and are sorting it out but it's going to take time. Brexit was always going to come with some costs, that should be obvious even if you think on balance it was the right choice, and this is one of them.

Than a non-sequitur, why would it matter? superbugs that originate in hospitals can escape and cause harm beyond a hospice; and if certain locales, Nigeria being the famous example of, are harder to touch, then those places will be selected-for for by scammers.

Consider that certain places are harder to police than others (which is basically the whole premise of this thread in the first place - than the EU is better policed than the UK); or that criminal operations could operate somewhere other then their place-of-origin.

> Some are based in the UK, others in Europe.

And if the European ones are more likely to get caught, there will be fewer of them, and a lot of those that remain won't operate locally.

> Also the EU had data sharing agreements and collaboration outreach

I don't doubt data-sharing is more difficult, I question if it makes any (long term) difference to remote (i.e. over the phone, or email) scams.

The question is how does that data relate to catching scammers who trivially outsource from elsewhere? Does the EU have any data on which EU companies run scams out of Nigeria[*0]? Even if the EU has a data-sharing agreement with Nigeria, I doubt the government even keeps tabs on the scammers. Plus, you can always move to wherever there isn't such a data-sharing agreement e.g. somewhere semi-hostile/antagonistic to Europe.

[0] SIDENOTE: I would mention somewhere other than Nigeria, so not as to seem to "pick on" the place, except - 1) Nigeria is established as famous for scams already, b) that would only make me more susceptible to downvotes from people triggered by me mentioning their somewhere-they-hold-dear in a negative light.

Of course not; but "stereotypical" ones are definitely Nigerian.

Sure, they do, but what does that matter; or what does "operate" mean in this sense? You can outsource to elsewhere i.e. you can operate anywhere.

> the EU has a large and often English speaking population

So do many places, the EU is by no means unique in this respect. But there's a reason "cost centres" are being outsourced to India or the Philippines, more often than than the EU. And in the context of criminal operations, "language-speakers" is by far the least important/riskiest factor relative to those that would get you arreseted.

> It’s the same with the US/UK

Is it? Do you have (statistical) examples?

> Email doesn’t care about national borders

Wrt liability, (i.e. Arrest Warrants, the context of this thread) email, or at least the senders of, do care; more-so than language. Unless you are implying criminals care more about maximising profit than getting caught?

Banking in britanic banking system is way easier than anywhere else. I remember when I was a student, they sent a bus to the university, so we could just hop in, arrive at the bank, and open an account as an immigrant in 15 minutes.

Try to do that in France, you would get your card, what, next month at best?

It was only a matter of time before the criminals realize the door was unlocked and feast on them.

In fact, I'm expecting Australia to be next, for the very same reasons.

Have you tried to do any paper work in Australia ? It's. So. Simple. Seriously, for a french, it's a video game on easy mode, and you never leave the tutorial.

But there is trust everywhere.

They are either going down, or make the system harder to work with.

Britons could be the criminals too. It's easier to spearphish high value targets when using a familiar "trustworthy" accent and associated mannerisms and cultural knowledge.

* UK infrastructure makes number spoofing very easy.

* UK banking legislation (and court rulings) put banks in a difficult position: they MUST accept a clients instruction to transfer money and do so rapidly (unless doing so would be a crime).

Not quite true. Banks are required to accept and process instructions quickly, the general idea being that bank should never prevent an individual from accessing their own money. But protecting a client from fraud is a legitimate reason for slowing down a transaction, you just can't delay it indefinitely. There are plenty of UK banks that will delay outbound bank payments by up to 24 hours if they think there's a good chance someone is being defrauded.

https://www.mondaq.com/uk/financial-services/1056304/uk-high...

But it goes all the way back to common law. Basically the bank is a customers agent and must obey instructions to the best of its ability. It must exercise reasonable skill etc obeying those instructions. But unless it suspects fraud it cannot disobey. To quote: a bank is not required to act as an amateur detective.

There is very little room for them to decline a customer instruction once given. It needs to be pretty blatant fraud or otherwise illegal. Sending money to another account is neither on the face of it.

I don't think anyone has answers, it's a problem that will affect crypto payments as well as Fiat payments.. I hoped Confirmation of Payee would help, but the massive increase in APP fraud in the last 12 months seems to dispel that notion..

Maybe the answer is money that doesn't settle instantly.. Kind of like how your paypal payments are "on hold" whenever you get them to give the sender time to realise they've been scammed. Maybe all payments take 2 weeks to settle, and everyone lives on free credit up to the unsettled amount..

edit: I worked at Monzo for 5 years, and was in the original Confirmation of Payee meetings as Monzos rep to Open Banking

Well, all credit card payments are basically exactly this (which you’d know, given your previous job). The crypto crowd always yell “no chargebacks!” when trying to attract people to their platforms, but chargebacks are actually a feature, not a bug — for the very reason you just described.

I don’t like it, though. It seems totally inefficient, and there are better ways to do this.

Edit: I want to add, because of chargebacks, any credit card processor that doesn’t hold your money for, like, 6 months or whatever, is accepting the credit risk associated with what would happen if all of your transactions were charged back and you weren’t good for the money. Hence why their risk management is a nightmare, and why anyone who enters that space ends up looking like a bad guy who arbitrarily freezes people’s money (unless they choose to use humans rather than AI, but that doesn’t “scale,” right?).

Anyway, he told us the same day and we immediately called his bank. It was under 24 hours and they shut down the payment. He didn't lose a penny.

So, yeah, I totally agree with you. The slowness of payments and chargebacks are a feature, not a bug. Same way that we have checkpoints before we deploy code to prod. Not having this assumes that everyone is making decisions in their best interest all the time. In reality, we do bone-headed things quite often and need a fair redo.

I'm not sure how that would help with regards to APP fraud. APP fraud is possible because scammers are successfully able to social-engineer people into sending their money away despite the various warnings (including on the payments UI in bank apps, or - in the US where this scam uses gift cards - to not tell the cashier or the bank what you're buying the gift cards for). I would expect the same social-engineering to be able to convince the user to not raise the alarm during the 2 week cooldown period.

I think the problem with APP fraud is a lack of user education (and maybe consequences - users expect the bank to always make them whole and so don't take security seriously) as well as insufficient enforcement on the other side - not enough is being done to prevent scammers from operating (why is it still possible for them to robocall and spoof UK numbers? why is there no AML/KYC equivalent before being able to place calls?) and getting away with it.

It would be interesting to test this. Having read through a number of APP fraud cases, including victim statements. One persistent theme is that the pressure cooker environment that scammers create to get victims to send money is very effective as getting them to ignore warning signs. But after they've sent the money, and the immediate pressure is off, they quickly realise they've been scammed.

I strongly suspect that introducing even short delays of a few hours would be very effective. Especially if the victim is immediately made aware that a delay has been introduced. This give the victim a little time to cool-off and realise that they've been scammed, and then hopefully alert the bank.

The scammer had control of my solicitor's email and timed the attack perfectly so I was absolutely convinced I was sending money to the right place.

Didn't realize until a few days later when the solicitor called me wondering where the money was. The two week thing might have helped us but the scammer would probably just time their attack differently. Although it would increase the time they have to keep the fish on a hook.

A basic house deposit payment redirection scam should be covered, assuming you have evidence that the emails were sent from your solicitors email address.

We know that banks don't want to discourage people from spending money or using their services, but even as a consumer I hate dealing with chargebacks.

My significant other doesn't watch their credit card statement and signed up for some LinkedIn service that was never used for like 6 months. LinkedIn isn't going to refund money that far back and chargebacks won't go back that far, either. I don't think any lesson was learned.

Maybe I'm more sympathetic to merchants and avoid charge backs? If I don't recognize a charge, I usually assume I don't recognize the merchant and investigate and reach out to them first. I feel like half the time I do have to issue charge backs the bank invalidates my card (even though I know it was not lost or stolen). I feel like they're penalizing me.

This would be extremely annoying. I hope it would be opt-out.

Every scenario I can think of seems like it should be either traceable or actionable.

Scenario 1: The crooks cashed out the victim's $270,000 at ATMs. That means they set up 270 fraudulent bank accounts, each tied to a separate ATM card, and each with a withdrawal limit of $1000. There should be a cornucopia of leads to follow. It's a major hassle to set up a bank account. You need an address at which to receive each one of those 270 ATM cards. Did the bank(s) send 270 cards to one single mailing address? Were these online accounts or did the crooks visit each bank with fake IDs? What did the surveillance cameras at the ATMs show? If they hired duped people to cash out at the ATMs, can't the police catch at least one of those persons and continue following the money?

Scenario 2: The crooks create one master British bank account into which the stolen money is funneled (say $1,000,000) and then they transfer the money to overseas to Third World Bank. Why doesn't the British bank (or the British government) demand that the $1,000,000 be returned by Third World Bank? It's now the Third World country's job to track down the crooks if they want to. If they won't return the funds, they get blacklisted by the British banking system.

Perhaps there are very good answers about why and how the crooks can get away with it but it seems so implausible when money has been so traceable for the last 20 or 30 years (except for certain cryptocurrencies but that's recent).

Most people don't realise what these accounts are used for, or just don't care because they're paid enough to look the other way. Then stolen funds are quickly moved across dozens of banks, with the money being split and re-combined with potentially legitimate money. Eventually the administrative overhead of tracking the money gets so great that no one bank can be bothered to do anything about, and the police aren't interested in actually investigating. The end result is that once the stolen money if a dozen or so bank accounts away from the victim, it's extremely unlikely that anyone is actually going to trace the money to that account, effectively making the money clean.

These ads are deliberately designed to prey on the desperate, unfortunate or the technically illiterate.

Some of them probably know exactly what they're doing and I have no sympathy, but some of them probably fall into the same category as people falling for Authorised Push Payment fraud.

In the worst cases the accepted practice can be as severe as locking them up and throw the key away, even if it was totally unintentional.

Like a drunk driver plowing into a group of school children, or a ship captain that sinks a cruise ship while distracted.

Having extra scrutiny imposed on future banking activity is a minor punishment for a minor crime.

It is in the article:

The fraudsters had told her to shift her "at risk" cash to an account on a cryptocurrency platform that they emptied - while isolating her from family by stressing secrecy and coaching her on how to respond to sceptical bank officials. "They knew the name of my financial adviser, they were utterly convincing as FCA staff," she said. "And they told me I could not tell anyone about the investigation as it would damage their efforts to catch the crooks."

It's not really like this. Banks (and Western) governments are extremely meticulous about recording financial transactions, but have relatively few systems for actually retrieving that information for proactive law enforcement. There are large historical and technical barriers that prevent meaningful advances in the government's ability to surveil bank accounts in real time.

As just one example: interbank settlement over ACH is measured in days, not seconds or even hours. During settlement, anything can happen: the ODFI might try to claw the transaction back, either institution can go bankrupt, the destination account might close, etc. A human frequently intervenes to handle these cases. Banking is eventually consistent, but the fraudster is frequently long gone by that point.

Edit: it's also worth noting that "anonymous" (read: numbered) banking is also really only good for Doing Crime (and Having Crime Done to You). But plenty of countries, including the US, allow you to open bank accounts (and do debit transactions) without an official government ID.

In the past, the same mules were sending Western money transfers or similar, but nowadays cryptos are so handy most criminals have migrated to it.

After a few months the cops usually come knocking, and depending on the jurisdiction, the poor mule is hit with fine/jailtime and/or the debt

Unless the destination country, the destination Western Union office and the person who picked up the money are all willing and able to co-operate, law enforcement in the source country is pretty much stuck.

Whoah. Do you mean there are people that think cryptocurrency is "inoccuous"? I mean, I know there are inoccuous uses; but if someone "official" tells you to use a cryptocurrency account, that is very definitely occuous.

TIL: I have been spelling "innocuous" wrong since forever. It's apparently the negating prefix "in-", and the Latin word "nocere" (to harm).

So I should have quipped "that is very definitely nocuous". Or not quipped at all.

You're so far away from the truth. Basically, they have flashlight and they are in dark forest. You can theoretically find what you want, but it's fairly unlikely and very time consuming.

> and made it impossible to have anonymous bank accounts,

These are not the same things, as anyone who works in logging and tracking will tell you. Just because there is some tracking of you, or an ability to track you does not mean that all activity could be noted or flagged. If I purchase from a new online vendor, how would my bank know if it was me or not?

Catching the people opening the accounts leads you to nowhere, they rarely even know their bosses.

Is at least one major cause of the problem. The police and government's response has been pathetic. This is not a new thing either, it's been going on for years.

Edit: The reviews of Action Fraud speak for themselves: https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.actionfraud.police.uk

I'm surprised that in the surveillance state it's that easy to disappear with the money.

Most of these scammers are outside the UK, in India or Africa somewhere. Those countries do put a lot of resources into capturing 'Yahoo boys' and the like, but it's sometimes like looking for a needle in a haystack. I think the more realistic solution is to educate people so they don't fall for some of these preposterously blatant scams.

This is a question of who is allowed non-in-person banking. And a few technology tweeks (getting rid of number spoofing). And education but that's a bit of a lost cause.

Personally I think this comes down to ineffective education in many cases. Yes, some of these scams are getting quite impressively advanced, and they tend to target older people who are declining in cognitive ability, but so often the victims are absolutely unwilling to admit they were a bit stupid. It's always someone else's fault, like the bank, or the police, or Facebook, and not theirs for doing a direct bank transfer to some random person who told them it was an emergency. It is frustratingly hard to protect old people from this though - my nan got scammed for a new mattress by a door-to-door salesman when she was in a care home, who dropped the ball by letting him in at all. Another OAP I know would be a fairly easy target too, as she seems like she'd trust a "nice young man" more than her own family at this point (unwarranted, I should add).

Our tech education in particular was fucking woeful when I was at school and I have to assume it's little better now. To me, avoiding scams seems fairly straightforward:

1) If it's too good to be true, it's not true.

2) Never fill out a form from a link in an email.

3) Don't provide any details to anyone who phones or emails you, always look up their official phone number and phone them back. I use multiple devices to do this and multiple sources to avoid compromised sites like one of the examples. Call up the directory service on the phone and compare that too, if needed.

Perhaps there's also a cultural aspect to why the British are so easy to scam? Maybe our curious mix of laziness, stupidity, superiority complex, and greed combine to make us the perfect targets.

Ongoing transition from "high trust" to "low trust" society. People don't yet expect to be scammed, but trust in institutions and the rest of the public is falling.

The scammers are extremely well practiced, and are extremely good at using misdirection and pressure cooker situations to make it extremely difficult for people to recognise the scam in the moment. Some of the scariest aspects of these scams is that they frequently use the banks own fraud protections and alerts against victims, creating transactions they know will be declined, or inducing the bank to send legitimate login warnings, to create evidence that a victim needs to act soon to protect their money.

Scammers will also falsify phone numbers, calling from numbers that are either identical, or almost identical to the banks official number, and then ask the victim to compare the caller ID to number on the bank of bank card to build trust. Finally there's frequently a significant delay between the initial scam email/SMS and final scam. A victim will accidently enter their card details into fake package website, but nothing happens. Then three weeks later when they've forgotten about the fake website, the fraudsters will ring, using the data to "prove" they're from the bank, then ask the victim if they recently put their data into any dodgy websites (which of-course they did). Once they created the strong impression they're calling from the bank, reminded the victim of the earlier fake website, the victim is then perfectly primed to believe someone is trying to steal their money, and person on the phone is going to help prevent that.

TL;DR, these scams are extremely sophisticated, and perpetrated by intelligent individuals who's full time job is figuring out how to socially engineer people into handing over their cash. Don't assume your somehow "better" or more "immune" to these scams, or that victims aren't educated and intelligent. That grossly underestimates how capable these criminals are, and induces people to ignore the issues and victim blame instead.

The head of accounts in my previous company fell for a bank transfer scam (urgent payment request forwarded "from the CEO"), so I have seen it happen to young people, but I wouldn't say that person was "tech savvy". Being able to use a computer doesn't make you tech savvy, and I would say the number of tech savvy people is probably close to identical between younger and older age groups. Being intelligent in one aspect doesn't make you smart at everything else (which is why I avoid doing plumbing). What is missing is critical thinking and cynicism. I highly doubt most people check the full email source of anything they receive that looks important, but they should. People rely too heavily on technology to tell them when something is wrong, and they shouldn't.

The scam example you describe is easily avoided: don't enter your details in the fake package website in the first place. Don't answer the phone to the unknown number. Don't believe them when they say they're from the bank. Don't do anything anyone tells you to. And if they try to rush you, that should make you stop and think why.

I don't doubt the scams are getting pretty clever, but that doesn't mean the victims can't also be a bit stupid. Yes it's sad that they have fallen for it, but to shift all the blame elsewhere is unfair - we are ultimately responsible for our own actions.

So if the situation is right, almost anyone can fall for it (Gorilla on basketball court experiment)

The news is always warning people not to transfer money to the IRS etc if they call

British: tend to defer to authority, tend to be overly polite.

Americans: tend to question authority, tend to have strong self-belief.

As a theoretical scammer I'd likely be looking at different approaches in the two countries, but with probably the same underlying scam. I imagine this is true for most countries, and I'd be curious to see how much of the approach has to change for different places.

Edit: I should add, I think the American fear of the IRS and the UK fear of HMRC are effectively equal. Everyone's scared of the tax man :D

Or, maybe, our good manners?

I don't seem to find that hard at all. And I meet many strangers that are rude (not all of them foreigners).

It's true that brits hate complaining in restaurants. I don't think I've ever complained in a restaurant, despite my innate rudeness. But I find it very hard to keep my cool, when I've just listened to 30 minutes of hold music, and the person that picks up is an unhelpful numpty.

In my case, the attacker had control of my solicitor's email.

A few days before he sent me a letter instructing me to deposit money to the correct account, the attacker sent an email from the solicitors email server (Dkim verified by Gmail), with a different account.

This was in the context of a thread about the conveyancing on a house purchase so I was expecting to have to transfer money somewhere.

I admit my own failure in the process but I think there's room for improvement in the whole process of buying a house too (like why don't solicitors get buyers to enter the correct account info proactively at the beginning of the process)

You can imagine the conversation at the bank as they repeatedly refused to entertain her explanation, let alone wire the money.

Mom passed last year, and the heartfelt words from the entire family were the greatest tribute we could have asked for.

I am quite interested in the security details of NFC.

Where is the best information you found? Unfortunately my searches found too little.

BTW: apparently someone managed to use a fault in the protocol to steal well more than the limit. And by the way, if any product proposer mentions a "limit", in order not to be brainless they must also mention a "rate" (e.g. 10€ per hour), and I have never seen anyone do it.

-- "Contactless payment data can be picked up at a distance" (2013) https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-24743920 -- "Mobile device prevention of contactless card attacks", US patent, 2014; https://patents.google.com/patent/US9379841B2/en -- "Proximity verification for contactless card control and authentication systems", Proc. Annual Computer Security Applications Conference, 2015; https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/2818000.2818004

-- Finally, a fairly good review article: "internet of Smart Cards: a pocket attacks scenario"; Intl. J. Critical Infrastructure Protection; 2019; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187454821...

Similarly with NFC wallet sniping. In practice it doesn't happen, and because it's a merchant credit card transaction, significantly easier to roll back in time once customers start filing charge backs for them, which is a major reason probably why it doesn't happen much in the first place. Physical wallet snipping is also too much work compared to other schemes available.

How would you know a call from the bank about fraudulent transactions was fake? They do that! I've even had legitimate calls from them where they refuse to pass my security questions because of data protection. Pure madness.

NW: "Hello, am I speaking to <robotmay>?"

Me: "Who's asking?"

NW: "I'm calling from the NatWest fraud team, we'd like to verify your transactions. First we need to ask some security questions: what is your account number?"

Me: :|

Online-only banks like Monzo/Starling are better at this aspect - they never seem to phone anyone, which at this point I'd consider a security feature.

I have had these scam delivery text messages. On one occasion, I almost fell for it because the scam text message coincided with an expected parcel delivery. The text messages randomly target people without knowing whether people are expecting parcels, but it undoubtedly succeeds in tricking some people who are genuinely expecting a parcel.

[1] Delivery text scams: the nasty new fraud wave sweeping the UK: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/may/18/delivery-text-...

After that, it was easy for fraudsters to just spam links to everyone to similar looking pages. I often have 5-6 pending order now, since COVID I buy literally everything online, and I can't keep track of everything that's inbound. I'm sure a lot of people are in a similar situation, which makes this scam very effective.

As for why the UK is a hot spot, I could guess it's to do with the phone system? I get loads of spam calls, but I have no way to find out what company or person the caller phone numbers are used by.

Pick up the phone, but stay silent. If it's an auto-dialler, it usually disconnects automatically after 4 seconds, and seemingly gets you removed from the list (as either a dead line or a machine I guess). Sometimes this catches legitimate call centres, but I probably didn't want to talk to them either.

In some cultures, most callers (private individuals) would not start speaking themselves before hearing a sign of presence from the other side: you filter out auto-diallers, but also contacts you did not have in your address book.

And I haven't listened to recorded VMs for years. Way back when, I actually bought a machine for answering phone-calls. I have no idea what I was thinking :-)

For example, I had had to talk my credit card number out loud on a telephone call to put a deposit on a flat and to renew some subscriptions.

At the same time, most high street banks have terrible security infrastructure: HSBC regularly calls me and asks me to give sensitive information and sends me PIN codes via snail mail and text message.

These things tend to work in a first-world high-trust society like the UK, but I'm not surprised that people fall for these scams. I'm lucky that most of them seem to target older and more gullible people than I; otherwise they could be impossible to separate from legitimate actions.

So how about a facility for setting up a passphrase on your account that _you_ could ask the bank for?

"I'm your bank".. "What's the passphrase?" "errrrr...." "goodbye scammer".

They are training their users to get phished.

I've sometimes aborted purchase transactions with significant value on being confronted by that challenge.

It's a bit like handing your card to a teller, inputting your pin, and then the teller passing you on to some rando asking personal questions.

Bring back local branch offices where people have to manage their high-risk accounts in-person.

That's still considered normal customer service by a local bank here in the US. I assume it degrades if you bank with one of the giants like Bank of America.

The UK has greater industry competition in the form of challenger banks than the US

Because you're not allowed to ban old people from your services.

Because at least some old people use these things successfully and at least some young people get defrauded.

Because UK banks are closed more than they are open (my local NatWest.

People should be able to opt out. But that won't really help as the core issue here is the customers themselves...

The actual actions of the government have been to do neither.

I have 3 "proper" bank accounts (different banks), a couple of "challenger"/app bank accounts, and 3 credit cards and haven't stepped foot in a branch to open or deal with any of them in 20 years. I've had to get on the telephone with a couple maybe a couple of times.

I couldn't be happier with this arrangement, as long as someone is reachable when shit really does hit the fan.

> The NECC's Reed said another problem was that just 1% of policing resources were dedicated to fighting fraud, despite it making up over a third of all crime in England and Wales.

Astonishing, but in some ways not surprising given the Met's ability to cover for colossal failings like the Sarah Everard murder and the "spycops" fiasco.

The political system is .. not in a position to improve this, despite it affecting a lot of the supposedly critical marginal elderly voters.

A lot of very dumb people have 5 or 6 figure cash piles.

I'm discovering Revolut.

Oh dear. So the country is the location several Km underground, that is the centre of the attacks?

Why has every centre turned into an epicentre? Is "epicentre" easier to understand then "centre"?

Whereas 'country is the epicentre' is more obviously intended as hyperbole.

This is honestly one of those things that I never expected to read in a negative context...but it makes complete sense.