Vaguely related, Paul Graham tweeted "I worry Elon has no idea how much he has damaged his personal brand ...", re UK stuff and Elon posted a pages of text rant as a result. Not sure if it was written by him or Grok. I worry Elon's going a bit bonkers with drugs or whatever.
I own several Teslas, and based on first hand service experience, your concerns are warranted. Stay out of the ecosystem, lots of other good EVs to pick from (Hyundai Ioniq 6, for example). If nothing goes wrong during your ownership, you're fine. If anything goes wrong and you need service or support, it is a terrible experience.
Maybe this changes if Tesla fires Musk and puts someone competent and accountable at the helm (bring JB Straubel back as CEO, imho). I wouldn’t buy another Tesla until then.
> Stay out of the [Tesla] ecosystem, lots of other good EVs to pick from (Hyundai Ioniq 6, for example)
I'd also step back and ask if a PHEV would be sufficient. I don't think that there is any time in the last 3 years that I've driven more in one day than the EV mode range of a Prius Prime or RAV4 Prime which means it would essentially be an EV for me, and they have great reliability reputations.
Maybe I'll drive more longer trips when I retire (hopefully within the next year or so) and then would have to use the ICE engine. A Prius Prime gets over 50 mpg when using the ICE so although the energy cost for such a trip would be higher than for a pure EV it would't be a lot higher (100 miles in ICE mode would be about $5 more than 100 miles in an EV at my typical gas and electricity costs).
the problem with a non-tesla is charging… and it is a BIG problem. I own both Tesla and a non-tesla EV which I literally never take anywhere if I need to charge it … the first time you wait 7 hours to charge the car you get it :!
At least in the US, almost every automaker has contracted with Tesla for access to the Supercharger network. I am aware this is still a chokepoint that Musk could exercise control over while having a controlling interest in Tesla.
I bought my Tesla in 2014 and have 100k miles of free super charging behind. total number of non-Tesla’s I have seen in 11 years charging - exactly two
The subset of Tesla Superchargers with a MagicDock are usable by any CCS EV. You can find them on the Tesla charger map by filtering by "Open to other EVs"
Musk takes a bit too much ketamine and has a Roseanne Barr moment
Rosanne Barr, for her flaws, has never done anything as bad as Elon Musk has done in the past two weeks. He already had his Rosanne moment and then some with the Nazi salute, and soared past her into uncharted territory since then. He has lost his mind.
Just an anecdote but i'll put it here:
A friend of mine insisted that her ex was slowly driven somewhat mad by finasteride, not in the typical crazy ex way, but obsessive somewhat delusional thoughts and moods, like he was getting stuck in a loop over some idea.
She later dated another guy who was taking it for a very long time, and said he had the same type of delusional quirks.
On that note, I've always wondered whether a lot of this is because of his Apartheid-era South African upbringing.
Unlike a lot of White South Africans he's English, and they were viewed as outsiders by a number of Afrikaners. Same with with David Sacks being Jewish South African and Peter Thiel being the kid of German expats in ZA.
On the other hand, Roelof Botha tends to remain outside the political limelight despite being from Afrikaner political royalty (his granddad was the Foreign Minister towards the end of Apartheid).
Maybe Musk, Sacks', and Thiel's anger and political weirdness is because they felt like the perpetual outsider no matter where they were.
Musk, Sacks, Thiel, and Botha all must have been 2nd or 3rd degree connects well before the PayPal mafia even started because their parents were all at the top of the social and economic strata among White South Africans (same handful of private schools, country clubs, etc)
It is all their when you include him: the unstable personal identity. The contempt for average South African (British or Afrikaaner) while being a minority white. The Sovereign Individualism. The use of the Internet to pioneer new firlds of commerce (telemedicine). The contempt for women. The attempts breed Ubermenschen. And of course, the utter contempt for Rule of Law.
We can also explain much of their behaviour when we look at his life story.
So genuine question: is Musk actually addicted to drugs? Or a frequent user? I keep seeing that around, but I don't know if it's more a joke/meme or serious?
My theory is that after he bought Twitter he no longer had to abide by the rules (since he owns the thing), and combined with his wealth basically no one ever says "no Elon, you can't do that" or "you idiot, that's fucking mental". Also he has tons of people cheering him on (also in that thread). This is not helping keeping him grounded.
He has a prescription for Ketamine and is probably an occasional other stuff. Of course you don't quite know. The best source is probably the wsj article https://archive.ph/zcAdE . Says "LSD, cocaine, ecstasy and psychedelic mushrooms, often at private parties".
My sisters first boyfriend went permanently nuts from mostly that list. I think it was a toxic mushroom that flipped him.
Musk had lost it long before Twitter, his K problems were obvious at Tesla, which is one of the reasons I never purchased one.
If you didn't see all the instability when he was calling folks paedos because they were saving lives, while he was snorting whatever he could find, then I'm not sure what else to say. It was never going to end well, yet techbros pumped up his bad ideas and feeding the ego.
Teslas are good cars, but I can understand not wanting to drive around in anything associated with the current CEO.
I think about data privacy too. Every automaker sells identifiable location data. I'd normally think of Tesla as being contrarian and possibly better on privacy, but they have a history of passing around photos/videos/audio from inside the cars(!).
I really wish that Apple hadn't killed their car effort. Even without self-driving, it could've been better in many other areas.
It's such a shame. My wife has an early Model 3 from 2019 that's now over 100,000 miles. It's been a great car, no major issues and no maintenance for 6 years. 100,000 miles with nothing but new tires and windshield washer fluid is amazing to me. We're not in a position to unload our Tesla for something else right now, but without major changes at the head of the company it will likely be the last Tesla we own.
Most European EV sales that aren't Tesla are European brands like Volkswagen Group (VW, Audi, Skoda), BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Stellantis (Pueguot, Fiat, Opel), Renault-Nissan (Renault, Dacia, Nissan), or Korea's Hyundai.
The only Chinese challenger brand that has some traction is Geely via Volvo.
I'm not sure about Austria, but these are the cross-EU stats [0].
And in the largest EU markets (Germany, France, Italy, Spain), it's overwhelmingly local players.
Chinese players have started gaining some traction, but that's overwhelmingly Geely via Volvo. And Geely began their expansion abroad largely due to domestic competition within China, with most consumers preferring either a BYD or a Tesla.
That link talks about H1 2024 and says this about BYD:
> BYD registered 17,000 electric cars - 14,000 more compared to H1 2023. In fact, BYD’s rapid growth allowed it to outsell Nissan, Smart, Toyota, Polestar, Citroen, Dacia, Ford, Mini, Porsche, and Mazda. As a result, BYD is now Europe’s 16th best-selling BEV brand - the second Chinese brand following MG, which held 8th place in the BEV ranking.
We'll see in a couple months, but probably not well, because EU EV sales shrank overall in 2024 [0]
> That link talks about H1 2024 and says this about BYD:
Yea, but primarily this - "BYD is now Europe’s 16th best-selling BEV brand".
It's total sales are still dwarfed by existing giants in the EU market, as the H1 24 sales data has shown. The brands it outsold are those that didn't really target EU BEV sales (eg. Ford, Renault) or are conservative in their EV approach (eg. Nissan, Toyota)
The only Chinese firm that has kind of cracked the European market is Geely, and that's because they were able to leverage Volvo to sell a rebadged Geely as the XC30.
> Most European EV sales that aren't Tesla are European brands like
Bikes are still "vehicles". Problem is that stuff like Tesla are luxuries, we simply can not afford that! Bikes are an alternative on the same market.
An alternative that is heavily advertised by our governments! If there is a significant difference between car and bike, you should tell our government!
Not everyone has resources to treat their car as an IPhone!
Absolutely, yet at the end of the day Electric Bikes are not treated as EVs in colloquial conversation and are not a direct substitute for a Car in most cases. And I'm sure yk this too.
> You can absolutely carry family of 5 and furniture on bike! See Denmark and India!
I can't speak to Denmark, but in India people resort to buying electric bikes because of income. The moment they earn enough to pay for a car loan, they go for it, as people in my ancestral town have done.
That said, even in India, most 2 wheeler/electric bike sales are largely being driven by Ola - India's Uber/Tesla/AWS - because they are subsidizing Ola drivers to buy Ola Electric bikes. And that is what is driving most E-Bike sales in India.
That, even in India the sale of electric bikes has fallen significantly [0]
At the end of the day, in a market like India, if you can afford a car, you buy a car. And if you're buying a car in a market like India, you'd tend to prefer an SUV due to the negative stigma against sedans ("sedans are for p*ssies" mindset is the norm, and drives the popularity of vehicles is HC as the Mahindra Thar) [1][2]
The same mentality exists in the Indian 2-Wheeler/Bike community, with the KTM being treated as the gold standard.
The same "macho" style mentality that makes Pickup trucks popular in North America and Thailand is the same one that exists in India for SUVs (ICE or Electric) or Two Wheelers.
IMO, EVs and especially EV Sedans have done well in the Chinese market because the status symbol ICE car in China has historically been the Audi A6/A8, but in India the equivalent ICE car status symbol wise has been the Jaguar Land Rover [3]
Getting service for a Tesla in the US can be pretty unpleasant. They’ve gone from truly excellent service to not wanting to interact with their owners and managing parts availability quite poorly.
Absolutely terrible. I had to wait 2 months to get my Model S in for routine service. The day after, the battery pack heater failed and the vehicle would no longer fast DC charge. I was told it would be another 2 months until the vehicle could be looked at. I bought the part myself (1038901-00-K) and replaced it for ~$200 (requiring me to learn and perform the HV pack isolation procedure). Do not recommend.
Don't worry, everybody else is following suit and not selling parts for new cars either. My friend just bought a new GM vehicle, and it sat in the bodyshop for 9 months after someone hit the bumper at 5mph.
There's also the recent story about a guy running a limo business who couldn't get a bumper for his Cadillac, and had to keep making commercial insurance payments, and of course the car payment, while the car sat and could not be used.
https://www.carscoops.com/2025/01/gm-keeps-86k-cadillac-lyri...
With a legacy car maker, the service centers are independent (sort of). They have phone numbers, they answer the phone, and they want your business. If your car is drivable but needs a part, you can ask them to order it, and they will do so. Tesla service centers do not answer the phone, do not answer email, and generally could not care less about you unless you have an appointment made on the app. And they do not reliably answer messages sent via app. And, while their people might notice that they don’t have a part a day or two before your appointment and tell you this (by in-app message) and advise you not to bother bringing your car in, the automated workflow part of their app does not understand this, and there is a chance that you will get stuck and your car will never get fixed.
You can bypass this process to some extent by walking into the service center without an appointment, hopefully getting a friendly person, and having them ask you to make a service appointment while you stand there (using the app on your phone) so they can then log in, find your service appointment, and attempt to get the system to let them order parts while you stand there (a process that may or may not require a tiny amount of actual technician time because, while Tesla has all kinds of telemetry, this telemetry does not integrate at all with the system by which service centers decide what parts are needed).
Other than BYD, I would be very worried about getting spare parts for Chinese cars as well. Most of those car companies are in a very bad financial situation, in a country where the rest of the country is saddled with a crazy amount of shadow debt as well.
Europe has instituted tariffs for Chinese vehicles up to 35%. Given the low cost of Chinese vehicles, this may not be a big barrier (like in the US where it's 100% tariff).
Other than that, I completely agree - and hope that Europe manufacturing can catch up to China on EVs.
Completely uninformed statement. Its impressive what they achieved in such a short time but neither the xiaomi nor the BYD Seal is anywhere close to what it is mimicking.
Most people don't need or want FSD. They want an actual steering wheel and an actual stalk in order to activate turn signals. They want reliable well-made electric vehicles that don't take long to repair.
Musk has spent many billions of dollars building something his target market doesn't require. Tesla does not currently have product-market fit.
Musk should resign his board and CEO positions and stop interfering with internal decision-making. And refrain from rumored ketamine use.
people might even want fsd if it worked… except of course it only works on the highway and my 1986 hyundai had cruise control that did 93% of what tesla’s “f”sd does
That’s largely as a result of its branding strategy (single brand, only two mass-market models). There are 19 production vehicles based on VW’s MEB platform, say, most of them very similar. This is fairly typical; all of the big car manufacturers have at least a couple of brands, and many models, and some (notably VW, Stellantis, GM) have _dozens_ of brands, largely with shared platforms.
A lot of that is selling just 2 mass-market models. And it only barely beats out the Toyota Corolla, except that Toyota also sells the third highest volume model (the RAV-4) and the 8th (the Camry).
But when you add up sales for all models from each company, there are 12 companies that sell more cars each year. Market share is 11.07% Toyota, 6.41% VW, 4.87% Honda, 4.82% Ford, 4.56% Hyundai, 3.84% Nissan, 3.77% Suzuki, 3.53% Kia, 3.48% Chevrolet, 3.47% BYD, 2.67% Mercedes-Benz, then 2.77% for Audi and Tesla, and bringing up the rear of the top 15 is 1.85% for Renault
Yet, Tesla makes more profit than most. It's like saying Apple has no market-fit vs Android because it's far less popular… until you realize it's a strategic choice to sell fewer vehicles but at higher margins.
Tesla hasn't started going down market with cheaper cars. But they've said new, cheaper models will be released by June 2025. We'll see what happens for the cheaper and higher-volume segment of the auto market.
But for now, Tesla has the most popular model with the highest margins.
It just shows how uninformed you are! BYD Seal is 2000kg car, we do not want that! Europeans want EVs that are maybe 600kg to do shopping and drive around town. 80kms on single charge and 50kmph are quite acceptable parameters.
If I can remove car battery, put it on a cart, and take it to my apartment on 10th floor via elevator, even better! I need to charge it over night!
If I could spare $50k on new car, I would buy ICE before they are banned!
Who is we here? Europe is a big place with a lot of countries which are very different from other European countries. Here in Sweden that 600 kg 80 km/charge 50 kmph car would not do so well since it would run out of juice on the way back from the supermarket for a substantial part of the population, it would get stuck in the snow in winter and does not have enough power to keep the interior are a reasonable temperature when outside it is anything but reasonable. It might sell in Stockholm but then only to affluent citizens who'd use it next to their other two or three vehicles.
I'm all in on thinking modern cars are too fat but "maybe 600kg" is an absurd suggestion. That's less than a Smart Fortwo. There'll be a market for that but it's not what "Europeans want".
But most cars we had in the 80s were less than 1000kg, and that was fine.
Context differ from country to country, and from cities to countryside within countries, but in places where most of the population is concentrated in high-density cities, small cars or alternatives to cars are much, much more desirable than 2000+kg SUVs. Case in point, in France: more and more city centers just drastically reduce cars lanes and accessibility.
There does appear to be a social cost to driving a Tesla in blue-leaning areas these days. Nothing overt, but I've heard people who bought them without knowing who Musk is (and don't agree with him) now openly saying "never-again".
If the used Tesla market gets flooded, will there be consumer demand for those used Teslas? I suspect that most will be in suburban red-leaning areas in areas that aren't openly EV-technology hostile (something like the Dallas or Atlanta suburbs).
The problem for Tesla is that unlike the prestige effect of used luxury car sales driving new luxury car sales (i.e. BMW, Benz, etc), these cars are being disposed of because they are becoming less desirable. The target market for new Teslas seems to be shrinking among the primary populations who both want and can afford EVs.
Jackson Hole, Wyoming. One sold (Model X), one scrapped (Cybertruck). Oddly, opposite ends of the political spectrum. Both because of Musk’s new brand.
The graphic shows that 85% of the addressable market favour party A and 15% party B. My point is that once you strongly align your brand with either party, you alienate a decent chunk of your customers.
If you have to choose, then in this situation choosing A is much better than B, but why alienate any of your customers like this?
The 2025 model of the Hyundai Ioniq 5 has NACS and is my favorite alternative in terms of looks, features, and price. Rivian has been in a different price category so I have a hard time believing the $45k starting price.
Yup, We are waiting for the rivian to have NACS as well. I was considering the idea of buying a used Tesla and just ripping the emblems off and putting a wrap on it. I don't like car models and brands on cars anyways.
But yeah, probably will definitely get a rivian, especially the new R3!
I still don't know if the heat pump will be as good as Tesla's but it doesn't matter. I don't respect Elon anymore. I still do definitely admire some of his technical talents and ability to ship products. I don't think just cuz a person does a bad thing means they're a bad person.
I see no reason for this to get flagged. Not every heated comment section deserves a flag, and no one is insulting each other. If it’s done by the mods, I think we deserve an explanation.
He most likely cares about Tesla as much as the upper stage of a Space X rocket cares about the first stage booster after separation. It served it's purpose and can now burn up or explode. Zero fucks given once he's in orbit.
I wouldn't buy a Tesla today if it alchemically transmuted atmospheric carbon dioxide into an ounce of gold that pooped out of the front console every 1000 miles. Most of Tesla's target market does not tolerate Nazism, which Elon Musk is clearly and obviously signaling.
That doesn't even touch on his enthusiastic role in an administration threatening EU members states, some of our historically closest allies in the past century, with military action. There are great Chinese EVs, even if Musk weren't behaving this way. Of course demand in the EU is cratering.
Teslas valuation is ridiculous, their reported earnings quality is lousy, and their sales comps are deteriorating.
edit: sorry, I'm blocked from further replies and will not be engaging further. The Nazi salute was more than enough, but his Afd speech and Gray/Abramson's comments about his subsequent Auschwitz visit added to the evidence.
If hippies no longer buy Tesla, then maybe all of the MAGA will, or maybe Trump will require the USPS or the federal government or any company wanting to do business with the federal government to buy Tesla.
If cars were not statements of the owner's ego or personality or brand, everyone would be driving either an unwashed Toyota Corolla or (if 3+ kids) a minivan.
I mean, you label ADL as a Nazi party. Then you label Musk as Nazi by association. But if you actually look at ADL they are not Nazis. Here's an interesting things I saw just today: https://x.com/derJamesJackson/status/1887425955494268997
That is such a wonderful quote from you asking if you can name examples of him signalling Nazism, apart from the Nazi salute he gave three times to the entire crowd of the inauguration and on national tv.
And the wife of an elderly holocaust survivor being honoured during that visit called him sociopathic as he seemed unmoved by the experience and more interested in a photo op.
Supporting Afd neo-Nazi party shouldn't count right. For clarity, leader of the AfD party has twice been fined by a German court for using banned Nazi slogan. Musk thinks, keep on giving these guys comfort and support.. no one is gonna notice.
It was an open secret for a while, that new model Y is coming. So why buy an old one when few months in the future you can get current model and not the outdated one. Everyone is just waiting to buy new model Y. I took the risk, got old one year ago and now I am very happy, that the new one is rather facelift with couple percent better range and not a revolutionary upgrade. This would be pity. I am just wondering about price strategy, because new one is expensive at the beginning.
Yea that's not the main reason, Musk is toxic for the brand. A recent poll in Sweden saw 68% has a negative view of Musk today, up 20% in the past weeks alone.
If that were the actual reason then why did the sales drop so much in the last month? Surely the new model Y has been coming for a while now, it is difficult to imagine that it would cause a >40% drop across the board from month to month.
Rather it seems very likely that Musk is extremely toxic to the brand at the moment. He is very closely aligned to a president who is actively threatening a trade war against the EU, after all. It would be weird if EU citizens just pretended that wasn't a thing.
I doubt it is the trade war. I think it is his attempts to interfere in European politics. Musk has done this in both the UK and Germany, and is signalling doing this in other places.
In the UK trying to help an extremist most people loathe (Tommy Robinson) is not going to make you popular. I am guessing that in Germany a lot of people loathe AfD so there is a similar, probably stronger, effect.
From a UK point of view, even if Trump imposes tariffs on our imports, that might be a problem, but it is not repulsive in the way backing an extremist is.
> why buy a Model Y in December at full price, when you can order the new version for the same price?
This take is not supported by the data. Used Tesla prices are crashing across the board. Sales are crashing across the board. Polls show clear negative sentiment towards the brand.
The old lineup isn’t helping. And yes, there will be a blip when the Y comes out. Tesla builds good cars and plenty of people buy on price and quality. But there is a reason most cars come in black, grey and white—consumers are conservative about cars as a statement about themselves. Owning a Tesla, today, is a political statement. Even among those who agree with Musk, most don’t want to signal that day to day.
Worth noting that this is not a new phenomenon. Pretty much every model gets a full redesign every 6 years or so, and a “mid-generation refresh” every 3 years or so.
Well, Model Y was best selling car in the world for 2 years running. Seems a likely candidate to be again. This is probably due to flipping over inventory for the new Model Y to launch
> Model Y was best selling car in the world for 2 years running
Teslas were cool for two years running. Look, the MAGA market is a big one. But it’s silly to think something as personal as a car won’t be affected by Musk’s politics. (We aren’t even in the phase where Tesla gets hit with targeted counter-tariffs.)
This is such a weird-but-probably-true take. I know it happens, but it's such a shame. Most people can't even name the CEO of their carmaker, much less that person's political positions. Most people just want to get to work and the store, and have very little other choice than some kind of car. Self expression through highly regulated corporations' focus groups: how sad.
CEOs of other carmakers take great pains for you to not know their political views as they are a private matter and may harm brand image. Musk has done a hard 180 degree turn in this regard. To make matters worse, Musk has become almost universally despised. Combine this with the flop that is the CyberTruck, and Tesla can expect their sales to plunge in the upcoming quarter.
He’s not universally despised. Even among democrats, half admire his talent and success. And in EVs, Teslas are still the best. I know you’re trying to manufacture a case for Tesla’s failure due to your political bias against Musk, but the reality is other car manufacturers are doing worse and have serious large scale problems, without any real strategy. Tesla, despite controversy, seems like it has more going for it than being just another car manufacturer.
> I know you’re trying to manufacture a case for Tesla’s failure
The CyberTruck launch has faced significant challenges, to say the least, and Tesla's sales have dropped by 50% in key European markets. In California, the largest US EV market, Tesla sales have also declined significantly. Meanwhile, Hyundai and Kia have seen significant sales increases and market share growth in 2024. These are the facts as they stand.
BYD will most likely sell more battery only EVs than Tesla this year and appear to have no problem scaling, they also sell cars that fit the majority of market segments.
Maybe Tesla's strategy of only 3 models and betting on robotaxis is the right one, but they have a serious risk of falling behind.
There's no real reason to think the "MAGA market" won't make up for the lost sales of the leftist market, or that it's particularly big swing either way ( most people don't care about politics and just want the best product )
I know a guy. Pretty sure he could build you an aftermarket add-on where, yes, you could. It would be hilarious. (Also obnoxious, but still hilarious.)
I see this drop across Europe and Canada but the US is still alright. For some reason though, any negative news about Tesla doesn't reflect in the stock price. Wonder if the US market is propping it up, xAI nebulous or may be just musk's incessant tweeting.
Surely this can't be because the Model Y (literally the best selling car in the world) just had a refresh announced that won't be available until March?
Gee I wonder what could have caused this? I’m glad I was early to the party when we cancelled ours when Elon insinuated in a tweet there might be a valid reason for Nancy Pelosi’s husband to have been hit in the head with a hammer in his home.
Every Tesla I see now all I see is a FascistMobile.
This may get flagged as it's similar to previous articles that were flagged, but I'd just like to point out that ideological arguments pro or con about Tesla stories rarely seem to be the true reason. That is, whenever there is an article about Tesla sales slipping you see lots of "That's because all the liberal EV buyers hate Elon now!" comments. And as much as I may personally want that to be true, if you dig a teeny bit you nearly always find that economic reasons are much more plausible - e.g. as some other comments have pointed out, the rise of competition especially BYD, people holding off for the new model Y, difficulty in finding repairs, etc.
Lots of consumers like to talk a good political game but pocketbook issues always seem to take precedence when push comes to shove.
I think there are more viable alternatives now than there were a few years ago, which makes it a lot easier to choose an alternative even if the negative brand association with Elon is only a small effect.
Of course, when the viable alternatives were few or none, that negative brand association would have to be much stronger to affect buying decisions.
Maybe, but I do know that in my part of the US, I'd regular see a dozen or so Teslas on the road during my commute. Over the last few weeks, though, I've spotted a total of two. There appear to be a lot of people who have stopped driving them so much.
Yep, I think the availability of other options helps a lot, and it's important we don't lose this competition now that the head of Tesla has somehow finagled a position in government (it will continue to be insane to me every time I think about that).
(A) design your own replacement logo (perhaps something subversive), or
(B) stick on a logo from another brand... Maybe an old British/Euro brand? Or a brand associated with gas-guzzlers. Or an old-school rainbow Apple logo.
Funny you should say this– I'm working on that right now. :-)
I've had a complete Mazda 3 badge set from Fleabay in a drawer in my garage that I ordered when he first started skewing right. I picked those because, if you squint right, it kind of resembles a Mazda 3 (and nobody is going to give it a second thought once they see Mazda badges).
Just downloaded from Thingiverse files for blank wheel center caps for the car and, separately, the Mazda logo. Caps are printing now.
Aiming for stealth rather than activism with the de- and re-badging. Activism is for other venues.
I think you’re correct. Ideology rarely affects brand penetration this much.
Whenever I talk to people in Europe , they always talk about the other options. Tesla is just not competitive there as a brand.
I do hope that one outcome of this stupid tariff war here is that Canada drops the tariffs on Chinese EVs. They exist to protect US brands but we’re losing out on so many great options.
I said it before and I'll say it again. If you bought a Tesla because of Elon Musk (when he was cool), or sold a Tesla because of Elon Musk (because now he's not cool), then you're not really buying a car but social capital.
I simply buy the best car I can afford that has the ride/styling/features/quality I want. In my opinion, those that don't are out of their minds.
Not sure how associating major consumer purchases with people became a status of being cool or not. I don't really care why people like this buy and sell cars. I guess it's like Apple, everyone wanted to ride the Steve Jobs bandwagon back in the day.
Boiling this argument into "being cool or not" is disingenuous when we're talking about a person directly threatening your current way of life. Just two cents coming from a citizen of a European country where he's attempting to meddle with the politics. Probably getting a Korean car next, despite them being objectively worse and more expensive for my needs.
Like it or not, if you buy a Tesla today you are signaling that you're okay with being associated with Nazism.
Regardless if you care or not, if you buy a Tesla you're also giving Elon more power, again aiding a Nazi.
You may think that's unfair but that's just how it is.
But it seems you just don't care if people are Nazis or not. Maybe the lack of empathy is why you think it's absolutely crazy to nor just consider the car itself?
> if you buy a Tesla today you are signaling that you're okay with being associated with Nazism.
Sounds like social capital to me, which is the point I was making. My purchases don't relate to social signaling on my part, not sure how we got here.
I mean, people don't have a problem with the iPhones being built by essentially slave labor. Technically if you buy an iPhone, I guess by your logic you're okay being associated with slavery.
I mean, people don't have a problem with the iPhones being built by essentially slave labor.
If you can walk out the door under your own power, then you're not a slave. Check your privilege (and while you're at it, your history.)
If you gleefully throw Nazi salutes while addressing a friendly far-right audience, then you're a Nazi, mentally ill, or both. Either way, I'm not buying a car from you.
Missing from this exquisite take is any evidence you present that this describes anyone else besides the guy that got a picture of Robert Mueller tattoed on his body during Russiagate and a couple of more likeminded hapless stringers.
Democrats were into being green before any of the post-Roadster cars came out. It's like saying that a ton of people bought iphones did so because they thought Jobs was a genius beforehand. No, they became insufferable Jobs fanboys because they thought the iphone was amazing.
They might have plummeted but it’s worth mentioning that in the UK vehicle taxes have changed this year for electric vehicles. Most EVs are still leased through employer linked things that incur an income tax saving, but that got less generous since a ‘benefit in kind’ charge now applies to EVs, and the road tax is no longer free for EVs from this year. Those things together make people much more price sensitive than they were a year ago.
The thing with cars is that this is one of few things where Europe can do a MEGA. We can buy our own and the reasons to do so seem to grow by the day.
I honestly have found it always very lame to virtue signal by means of buying a car or to cancel by not buying one. Common people generally don't think that way. Real life is not Twitter. At least not where I live.
But that's changing. 3 years ago Musk was just edgy and annoying but everybody still wanted a Tesla. Now when I talk to people in the market for a car they openly dismiss the "Nazi car".
Lucky for Musk that his stock is a fan stock, not a business stock.
BOYCOTT TESLA, TWITTER and SPACEX.
TESLA SALES PLUMMETED in the UK, France, and Germany.
TESLA SALES PLUMMETED 60% in January in Germany compared to the same period last year.
The world is watching. You guys in America better fix this shit. And fast.
My neighbor -- a very earnest, smart, progressive 27 year old working in alternative energy -- bought one just before the election. His deposit went in sometime in the spring.
He was super excited about it at first, but the spring in his step is much reduced now. I feel bad for him.
I mean, true life, I think most people have pretty good experiences with Teslas. The brand was pretty resilient vs. Elon's shenanigans until fairly recently, but now, man, whatever goodwill he had he's busily taken a flame thrower to. We'll probably go EV or hybrid for our next car, and there's no way in hell we'd consider a Tesla AT ALL.
Musk hasn't suddenly changed in the past few months. His deranged/racist behaviour has been going on for years. What has prompted your neighbour to regret his purchase?
Somehow I don't think this question is being asked in good faith.
Remember, not everyone watches Musk like HN apparently does. I knew who he was, and wouldn't have bought one of his cars 5 years ago. But a 27 year old working outside tech and not invested in social media could easily miss the magnitude of his assholery.
I mean, I think it has become more _visible_. A few years back, you’d only really know about it if you were Very Online. It is now utterly impossible to ignore.
Yes, it was a serious question, because even before his public Nazi salutes, he already had a history of anti-Semitic tweets online, which were later widely reported in many media outlets, such as the BBC. (I don't use Twitter, and never have, and yet I was aware of his racist viewpoints.) Tesla factories in the USA were also known for poor treatment of black employees. Thus I didn't see his Nazi salutes as surprising behaviour. Shocking, yes, and very repehensible, but unfortunately not surprising.
Anyone remotely interested in buying the most popular Tesla model (Y) have been waiting for the 2025 update, code-named Juniper. It's been rumored for months and finally launched in Europe on January 24, 2025.
Just like everyone knew about the Highland revamp of the Model 3, same time last year.
The Model Y is the most popular car globally, all mainstream and social media covered the Juniper launch.
And I'd buy one too if the interiors weren't worse than an entry-level Toyota. And if the internals weren't locked down like an iPhone going through puberty.
I think the AfD is going to find that tying themselves with Elon Musk might bring around the hardcore folk who would have gone with fringe political groups it's going to drive away the centre-right. Linking yourself with a guy who did what is considered within Germany to be a Hitler salute is probably not going to go too well for them.
Depends. Do they have the policies the voting public want?
Humans will routinely overlook bad window dressing like prejudice and authoritarianism if they get some policies they like out of the deal. This has shown itself to be true over and over.
If Dieter, 63, from some economically-disadvantaged part of Germany gets a promise to do something about "those people" coming and enjoying the German welfare state and to focus on issues faced by "real Germans", and he thinks he can get something out of it, he might very well forget that the guy the AfD invited to speak did a Nazi salute.
Same happened in the Midwest with Trump and north of England for Brexit.
It's interesting that you say that, because the former GDR is where AfD is having the most success. Y'know, the part of the country that was run as a puppet of the Soviet Union and was more stridently "anti-fascist" for the majority of the postwar period? [0]
As recently as 2023 they were the second-strongest party in Germany according to the polls. [1]
Most Germans today only know of the horrors of Nazism from the history books. They have no real experience with it. There is nothing special about any particular nationality that makes them immune to the scourge of reanimated fascism. The Soviet Union bore horrible losses to the Nazis in WWII and the largest former SSR, Russia, is more-or-less a fascist state today. A salute isn't as alienating as "being left behind" by the world.
> It's interesting that you say that, because the former GDR is where AfD is having the most success. Y'know, the part of the country that was run as a puppet of the Soviet Union and was more stridently "anti-fascist" for the majority of the postwar period? [0]
It's running strong in the racist part of the country. The area of Germany where they were literally tying up people at the side of the road and the police did nothing. Or where a bunch of racists stood and chanted racist chants at a bus and the police made the people on the bus get off. That's the area where they have the racist marches. Aka the poor part of Germany. Where there are poor people there are people blaming someone for them being poor.
But not in all of the former GDR.
> Most Germans today only know of the horrors of Nazism from the history books. They have no real experience with it. There is nothing special about any particular nationality that makes them immune to the scourge of reanimated fascism. The Soviet Union bore horrible losses to the Nazis in WWII and the largest former SSR, Russia, is more-or-less a fascist state today. A salute isn't as alienating as "being left behind" by the world.
You seem to think I'm saying they're immune. I'm saying that a large majority of the country is very anti the far-right. So much so that the CDU had to walk back a vote where they voted with the AfD, this was a vote for a permanent border control. It passed the first vote, the second vote it did not after Germany had massive protests over the fact the CDU broke the unwritten rule that mainstream parties don't cooperate with the far-right parties.
> A salute isn't as alienating as "being left behind" by the world.
I think you think this is profound but it's just showing a lack of overall insight. Being left behind is basically what facists want.
> You seem to think I'm saying they're immune. I'm saying that a large majority of the country is very anti the far-right. So much so that the CDU had to walk back a vote where they voted with the AfD, this was a vote for a permanent border control. It passed the first vote, the second vote it did not after Germany had massive protests over the fact the CDU broke the unwritten rule that mainstream parties don't cooperate with the far-right parties.
And?
There were people who hated the NSDAP back in the 1920s. Hitler was seen as an egomaniacal leech with no aristocratic roots and a band of street toughs to back him up. No one wanted to cooperate with them in the Weimar Republic.
But the Nazis said the right things to the right people, and developed a voter bloc. After a while, it does not matter if you hate working on legislation with the far-right. They have the votes, and if you want government to "work", you have to cater to their whims.
As there are more and more migrants moving into Germany, and more and more international competition in the manufacturing sector worldwide, you can generally count on more and more people getting interested in at least part of AfD's message.
The fact that Björn Höcke was kept in AfD after decrying the presence of Holocaust memorials on German soil, and was given a token punishment for using far-right propaganda in campaigning, reminds me a lot of Trump's trajectory.
At least in the US, as long as the charging infrastructure is no better than it is, if you're planning on taking any long trips and you want to do it in an EV, I don't see any alternative to Tesla. And, yes, I know that other brands can now use designated Superchargers and maybe that's enough, but given how few those designations are I doubt it.
> if you're planning on taking any long trips and you want to do it in an EV, I don't see any alternative to Tesla.
I've taken several long trips in a non-Tesla EV in the United States over the last few years. Never had a problem. Almost every interaction with a public DCFC has been plug and go. Only recently got a NACS->CCS adapter, still haven't needed to use it in about a year since I got it.
Will be making a cross country trip next month and explicitly avoiding any Tesla chargers. Planning to share my anecdotal experience. My car has an API so I can get trip and charging details to make for a nice HN data driven post
I live in the US and I bought a Tesla in early 2020, it's easily the worst purchase I've ever made.
The build quality is crap, the interior cheap feeling, and yes I got FSD and that is the worst part. FSD is only adequate in bumper to bumper traffic.
Any other scenario it's not good enough to drive itself without you babysitting it. So if you have to babysit it, what's the point? It's actually worse to babysit it than just to drive normally, because you get frustrated with FSD's shortcomings (wide turns, inability to merge, sudden freak outs when the painted road lines are obscured).
Yeah, good luck with that. FSD has been a year away for over a decade. I predict states will outlaw it/require the driver to be fully in control of the vehicle if people actually start using it. Right now the error rate is so much higher than human drivers that it's ridiculous.
Conversation here: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1879785727468163505