I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one, and quitting the other.

It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse.

It simply takes being treated like a robotic code monkey who is expected to do everything that is ordered, without question, and micromanaged to the point of insanity, while people in management positions make decisions - and then reverse them - that are so obviously wrong to any competent engineer that it makes Dilbert's PHB look like Einstein in comparison. This is not much of an exaggeration.

This is bad enough for any regular human to endure, but take a skilled engineer who probably suffers from impostor syndrome and the upper end of the Dunning-Kruger effect, and it is a recipe for a breakdown and, quite possibly, suicide.

Those who would glibly criticize such people for not going and getting another job, or just quitting, are out of touch with how badly one's confidence is damaged by that point; it would not be unreasonable to compare the psychology to that of abused spouses who don't leave their abusers.

Also, I could not leave one of the jobs without losing my work visa and being deported (it was back in 2003 before visa portability). Maybe others are in situations that make it harder than expected to move on.

My deepest empathy goes to this engineer, and to all others who suffer in this way, and to their families. We need to pay far more attention to the destruction that is done by quasi-sociopathic managers.

I eventually took some time off and started interviewing at various places. Shortly after taking time off I was told that the founders felt I wasn't "working fast enough" and was fired. I had never been fired from a job before and I contest their reasoning but secretly felt incredible relief to the point where I barely even argued, I just packed up my stuff and left with a smile on my face.

Now I'm working at a place with fantastic work life balance.

The fact is, it was such a huge relief to be shot of that dysfunction-personified environment that I thought, and I quote, "This is one of the best days of my life!"

The twist in the tail was that I had just received my permanent residence in the USA, and by laying me off, the company had been forced to forgive the many thousands of dollars in legal immigration fees I would have had to repay them, had I left voluntarily to seek other work.

When I was made redundant from my last job, which was a very toxic place, I was extremely happy as well - seeing as I no longer had to work for those people.

Needed the redundancy payment for the time to get myself back in mental shape, though... and then to find a new job.

I feel sad for the family of the Uber engineer.

I too always thought an anxiety attack was someone just freaking out because they can't handle something and they're being a little bit of a baby, etc. Boy did my attitude change completely. I had no idea!!

Imagine the stress that comes with figuring out new tech and solving new problems at the level of a startup, and then cross that with the financial stakes, entrenched processes and the management abstraction that exist in a large corporation, and you can see how big corps have their own versions of the same problem..

The combination of feeling like you're responsible for solving massive problems but have none of the ability to influence or determine how they will be solved is a terrible situation to be in.

    $startup_dysfunctionality + $dysfunctionality_from_fast_post_startup_growth + $years_of_wild_hiring + $years_of_reorgs + $useless_and_obstructive_policies_and_standards

I've worked at big cos like Microsoft and other smaller companies too. Some startups legit give a shit about employees.

We are also hiring if anyone is interested.

This is not to say startups are without risk; they obviously carry risk. My point is simply that you can absolutely find a startup that will provide you with a reasonable work/life balance. Remember, interviews are as much for your benefit (if not more) than they are for the business. Use the opportunity to ask them about their product, their revenue, their roadmap. You'll probably get a good idea of how hectic things are.

And for any founders/employers out there - respecting the personal lives of your teammates will actually make them far more productive, not less. Aside from just being the right thing to do, it also has the benefit of earning their trust and respect, which will keep them with you.

I've had anxiety attacks so bad because of this that I haven't been able to get out of bed in the morning. I can't remember the last time I've legitimately felt happy.

Anxiety attacks are awful. I hope you can find something better.

I do recognize that the first step is talking with someone but...it's a tough first step.

It actually does help to talk through things and therapists are trained to be non-judgmental and supportive. I urge you to try it if things get too tough for you.

The management at companies like this take it to mean you can do this every week and every week it has to get done in order to get a customer, etc. So you don't want to let anyone down and possibly lose business. So you bust your ass, week after week, putting out fire after fire, until you burn out.

I'm all for people working extra during certain crunch times. That's unavoidable a lot of the time. But doing it, week after week, for years? No good. I don't care how great the company is it simply isn't sustainable without significantly harming employees.

Software developers tend to be in that position now. Organizations increasingly rely on software as the embodiment of their processes and gatekeeper of their information. Yet, we seem to be a leaf-node on the decision-making tree.

The job I had prior to the hospital was a startup company in the Boston area, circa 1995. I was picked for a team of 8 or so to implement a system that was, in essence, an PaaS forerunner. (They put the senior-most people on the project, which was sad because I had only two years of professional experience as a developer. But, that's another matter.) For about 8 weeks, we worked between 60-80 hours trying to jam it in. During that time, one team member went to the hospital with chest pains while another had an outright heart attack. But, the company did reward us with a $100 American Express gift card for each team member.

At some point, I keep hoping that organizations will start recognizing that we need to be used strategically: a voice in decisions on how to use technology. Frankly, organizations aren't getting full value for us until they do.

I don't live in the Bay Area.

Are SV startups, in general, really this badly managed? If I add up all anecdata from reading HN comments about toxic work environments, I get the impression that 50% of the Valley is run like this. I have a hard time comprehending how this can happen.

The time lines, the compromises and the urgency are all different at a startup. You are used to being the smartest guy in the room at a mid sized or big place, you go to a small startup that got money because the founders are exceptional and they've staffed up with some exceptional people and they are all running like hell, you might look or feel kind of ordinary and that's a tough pill to swallow. It's especially difficult if you've never felt it before, all the sudden you're "failing" Combine that with a family that thinks the world of you because "you're the best" and I expect it's worse. Or at least that is how I've tried to understand it. There are clearly other issues when it results in suicide though. Again, I'm no doctor, but I try to give them an interview problem they can't solve, I think it's good if they say "I don't know how" or "I can't do that yet"

Another symptom I've observed, when someone is in that space, they often try to do more. Rather than botching one feature, maybe they'll rush and half-ass three or four to try and "make up" for earlier shortcomings. That usually creates a rift with the team that then starts to think less of them, the new guy is a bull in a China shop.

As for management, they share some of it. Uber seems like a broken place in a lot of ways. They should know it takes time to ramp up. Also success begets success, I take things off a new employee's plate when this happens. Make it small enough for them to create a little success and then build on it. In SV there is a large talent pool and a belief that the "right person" is around there somewhere so building long term success might not be as important to some companies.

We should be clear, though, that the "small fish in a big pond" scenario isn't exactly what happened to Joseph Thomas. According to the article he had already had a successful run at LinkedIn and had an offer on the table from Apple.

Sometimes even brilliant people just aren't a match, no matter what. But a mismatch is a mutual responsibility, and shouldn't be a brutalizing experience. The fault there lies with Uber.

I'm certainly not putting the blame on Joseph, he seems to have suffered a lot despite having objectively been a good engineer. But lets not forget that we're all (mostly) at-will employees, there is nothing stopping us from getting up and leaving just right now. Personal responsibility is really important. Perhaps we should be teaching some of this stuff in high school? I don't know what the solution is IMO.

I've personally been in toxic situations as well. As soon as I realized my happiness delta was negative, I immediately started looking at other positions and switched.

This is easier said than done when your own self-worth and ability to see your own value is diminished due to stress, when you have a mortgage and financial obligations and a family to take care of. Not many people are financially independent enough to just quit a job the moment they feel it's become "toxic".

Well, I never said it was easy.

To elaborate more, it is incredibly important to have contingency plans in place, to prevent exactly this sort of situation from happening. One of the first things I did when I started working professionally was to have enough liquidity to last at least a year, which I was able to do only after 3 years of saving aggressively. Which really came in handy after I was laid off a job and had to spend 3 months looking for another one.

I really don't understand how one can get married, have kids and not have such plans in place? IMO it seems kinda irresponsible, especially if one is working in tech, where saving money is much easier than in other professions.

Perhaps I'd feel differently if I had several more years saved or if I were more stressed at work. The thing about work stress that builds up is that your mental health declines and you can begin to think very irrationally. Paranoia and depression can set in. I've seen devastating examples of this with people I know. I think it's important not to minimize it or brush it off and to understand that what seems obvious to you or I may not be obvious at all to someone who is feeling burnt out, desperate and depressed from their work situation.

I'm most certainly not "brushing it off" or "minimizing it". I'm advocating for proactive measures to avoid reaching a such a mental state that can drive a person to consider suicide as a reasonable option. In your case, it seems like the measure I suggested (having monetary guarantee for at least a year) is not sufficient, so I would advise you to look for other measures, which you can likely take now when things are good.

What are other contingency plans that can be put in place?

Startups by their nature seem to rarely have the correct amount of resources for projects/sprints/etc. Anytime you try to cram five gallons of shit into a one gallon bucket, there are going to be repercussions.

Some people thrive on that environment, others like more traditional, better staffed and funded environments. Each to their own I guess. I feel sorry for this guy and his family, no job is worth that.

Yes we're sought after but that doesn't mean we want to re-adjust 4 times a year.

I think if you have to switch 4 times a year, either you're exceptionally unlucky or exceptionally bad at evaluating jobs for their effect on your personal fulfillment/happiness.

Startups with a lot of money on the line and no path to revenue will do crazy things that frequently lead to toxic work environments. Raise $10 million for a product that doesn't have a market fit, hire 10 people, provide them no clear vision for your business or product, tell them to make money, and watch as your business gets pulled in 20 different directions, employees fight, and people stress out. It's not likely to end well for anyone.

It's definitely going to be more common in places where riskier investments are more likely to happen. Uber, as an example, was last valued at nearly $70b and loses nearly $800m every quarter. I would imagine that kind of cash burn with no clear path to profitability is incredibly stressful on everyone. It's almost certainly the cause for many of the horrible decisions that seem to have been made there, and the same thing can apply at smaller scales to earlier businesses.

That said, your 50% view is probably skewed. We like to read "sensational" stories, but for every bad company out there, thousands smart and caring founders build great companies every day.

Amazon apparently has similar issues as well so it is not just startups.

The worst are whisper campaigns of passive aggressiveness.

Far worse.

I've worked at startups where we had to bust ass to get things done... mid-90s... sleeping at the office, going weeks without a paycheck to get the product to launch, living off Jolt and pizza -- and trying to build something that we honestly weren't sure could be built. And even if the work wasn't always done the exact way I would have suggested or agreed with, if I had a boss that took 5 minutes to explain why we were doing it... it was fine. No stress, just get it done.

I've worked at places that didn't require anywhere near that level of focus or time commitment that left me feeling just drained and miserable. Miserable to the point of wanting to pack it up and never see a computer again. Miserable to the point of acting out... little self-destructive things like sending snarky emails, calling in sick to play hooky, or indulging in office gossip. All because I had a boss who just demanded I do things without giving any reason, or who wasn't consistent with their stories.

Now I know enough, years of therapy / career coaching... and just age... when I see someone in a leadership position who just says, "Do what I say..." I start shopping for a new job. Or if they pull any manipulation crap like, "Sally and Mike know about X, but John thinks it's Y, and Sally can't know that Mike knows..." Or just simple lying... if they tell you something different than they tell anyone else. Life's too short to deal with those people.

Transparency, integrity, honesty... without those things in a boss, it doesn't matter how much work there is to do -- it'll be very stressful. It took me 10+ years to really nail down why I was successful at some jobs and not at others... for me, it all came down to the sort of boss I had. Didn't have much to do with me liking the person (or the scope of the work), or vise versa, as long as they weren't Machiavellian we could work well together.

Of course if the boss is just a dickwad, that is a pretty clear indication for you to leave. But more often they are just clueless about good management practices and/or have no idea that they're alienating the team.

And I feel disrespected that they aren't being honest with me about what they want. Someone comes up and says, "Oh we have to do X before Y... because it's the right thing to do!" And I just feel like they're trying to play me. I have no confidence that they won't come back tomorrow with, "Y is better than X!"

Someone comes and says, "My bonus depends on X, and not Y..." and even though I'm doing the same work, it's not stressful because I know why I'm doing it and I'm not worried the ground is going to come out from under me while I'm doing it -- if that makes sense. Having people change direction once they give me a goal is something that always causes me stress.

A number of contractors working there stated how they'd never experienced anything like it. It was phenomenally toxic.

Arriving home after my last day, I hugged my daughter and broke down in tears. The relief was unbelievable.

the emotional corrosion that this causes can't be understated. bad management, even without explicit abuse, is a serious driver of burnout.

burnout is a SERIOUS fucking condition and it should be acknowledged as a tier 1 health risk. people kill themselves because of it.

Years ago, I started getting signals that my work was preparing to let me go, like putting me on Performance Enhancement Program, etc etc. The thing is I had not kept up with my skills and so I really couldn't find any work with similar pay I could switch to. I also decided to stay to do better work in order to prove the managers wrong. I wanted to prove the management wrong, that I'm someone worthy of employment. I wanted to prove to them that I am a person, not some disposable tool to be tossed aside. I now know it was a mistake.

The stress at work kept building up in me for weeks. I woke up in middle of nights, and I am someone who sleeps like a brick.

And it hit me. One morning, as I was stuck in a stop-and-go traffic on way to work on freeway, I went over the little section of freeway that allows you a full view of the long lines of cars packing the freeway. This view suddenly caused me panic attack and I began to feel claustrophobic. I felt the urge to take off my socks (and strip off shirt, which I didn't) and open the window (which I did) so that I could relieve the feeling of trapped in the car. I had never felt such sensation before. I believe the issue of claustrophobia went on for about 2 years, as I remember worrying about taking a flight to visit family.

I never never had such issues before.

I think I can understand why the engineer didn't leave for another job. With his experience, he could've have gotten another similar or better job, but I believe he wanted to prove the management wrong. But unfortunately the stress got to him first.

I have struggled with extreme anxiety and chronic depression and brushed up against the thought of there being no way forward or out but suicide. During the closest calls, I was making the most I ever had, living in a nice house, etc. It didn't really matter though. I felt a tightness in my chest and a boiling kettle of acid in my stomach from the second I woke up until the second I fell into fitful sleep. I had a Pavlovian response to the sound of email arriving on my phone, to the point where it would be in my nightmares. But it was more than just work; irrational panic and anxiety filled everything facet of my life. I would nearly pass out from panic attacks when flying, or worry that the police I saw were going to arrest or harass me for an unknown crime, or think that any time my family was calling it would be tragic news.

About three months after I most seriously considered suicide, I got a new job, saw a psychiatrist, saw a counselor, and a few years later I was pretty much stable. I did have to detox off benzos, but that wasn't too bad.

It has to be understood that highly motivated, highly intelligent people can be driven to irrational levels of stress from their work. Unfortunately it isn't as easy as just reminding the person that they aren't their job or their career, just like you can't treat depression by telling a depressed person to turn their frown upside-down. This man may still have struggled with stress, anxiety, and depression even if he left Uber for somewhere healthier; what's important now is that people reading this story or these comments realise that there are always so many ways out, and that no matter what there are resources to keep you afloat.

I went through a rough period last summer where a project I was involved in was a complete disaster. I basically spent 24x7 terrified that a new "emergency" was going to roll in on my phone via email with a stakeholder telling me how this new issue was ruining their life and how disappointed they were; an issue which I was expected to deal with immediately. After that summer and to this day I keep my phone in "Do Not Disturb" mode 24x7 and treat it as a passive communications device that I only check when I want to, because I have literally run out of notification tones on my phone that don't send a burst of adrenaline through my body upon hearing them.

This is even after that project is over. I feel like it permanently damaged my brain and my ability to deal with stress.

I have used smartwatches that notify you when an email comes in by vibrating on your wrist. I view these as modern-day human "shock collars" where the shock collar beneficiary is actually not you, but your employer. I actually warn others against falling into that trap of wearing a "shock collar for work". Having your arm vibrate the moment an email comes in is not healthy.

I do still have a sound for incoming phone call, but thinking about it now, I am going to consider disabling that too. There aren't a lot of things these days that can't be communicated by a text message, if only to say "hey can we have a chat about <this or that>". I hate that phone call sound and the stress of running to get the phone, anxiety about possibly having to deal with some shit, etc.

Heh. I grew up in the days before mobile phones. A friend observed, when I mentioned my shiny new pager indicating a certain level of Importance in the workforce, that these devices made both parties happy.

The carrier felt smug about being so important they were paid - whatever it was, some small number of $'s a day - to be on call.

The person on the other end of the equation had eager and proficient technical resources at their beck and call 24x7 ... for some small number of $'s a day.

And some people say that the tech industry keeps going in circles.

Eventually I set it so that only whatsapp messages alert me. Everything else can wait.

I hope somebody finds this useful: I setup a 1 second "silent" mp3 as the notification sound for emails, messages, etc. If the phone actually rings, I pick it up. Yet the email notifications (got seven email accounts on the phone), the text messages, Telegram, Whatsapp... they are just silent now.

Hope this helps someone!

(Telegram isn't secure and choosing stickers over security will yield more stickers and less security.)

I can totally believe this guy was a great engineer too, as I've seen the work stress affect the best ones the most. The lazy and dumb can coast for months, speaking fancy words and pretending to be working, but really smart people actually want to deliver value and they grow tired and frustrated when they can't.

Stress isn't talked about much in SV, as the focus is on growth and revenue, and it's a shame. You can't build a long-lasting company without good people.

A while ago, a long long friend of mine suddenly messaged me out of the blue reminiscing on old times and stuff. I could sense something was amiss. I planned an impromptu trip to see him. I didn't bring anything up...we just chatted about the good old times, cracked a few inside jokes etc. He was visibly much better when I started back after a few days. We promised to be in touch but it kinda dwindled from there.

He got back in touch again and this time told me that he was seriously contemplating the last ride and my trip made him change his mind.

Anyway, apparently this stuck in his mind as he had been planning on committing suicide that evening. He never told me this, but it was relayed. Turned out the cancer was entirely made up as he wanted to have a legitimate excuse for committing suicide!

He's well now thankfully.

It's funny the tiny chancy things you can do that can have huge consequences.

My heart goes out to this family, and if you do have friends / colleagues that are down or talking darkly. Do reach out to them (however uncomfortable you may find the process), you might really make a difference.

Look after those relationships, folks. Lose them and they're gone forever.

As for your confident advice, that's only true for you. The Uber engineer who took his life had a loving family.

Everyone having suicidal thoughts should be screened by a psychiatrist. Sometimes it takes medication and medication saves lives.

In the Bay Area, call (415) 781-0500 to talk with someone who can help. http://www.sfsuicide.org/

This. 100% this. While I've been fortunate enough to not be in a position of job stress like this, the moment I realised that who I am is not defined by my job was the moment life (both inside AND outside of work) became so much easier.

Edit, to elaborate: take that higher-paying job but less 'prestigious' company because who the fuck cares. Clock out of work on time and refuse consistent unpaid over overtime. Work not doing what you want it to, leave and find something better. Quit defining yourself by your employer and instead work on you.

"In spite of their popularity and attractiveness, so far there is no conclusive evidence on the effectiveness of suicide prevention hot lines and crise centres" (2004) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414695/

"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle". -- Plato

Edit: @aaron695: that is what I was trying to communicate

We should of course continue to research ways to stem suicides and the conditions that cultivate someone feeling they have no other options.

You seem to conjecture that refering someone to a hotline raises the chance of that person commiting suicide, while AFAIK all the evidence points towards suicide hotlines being effective at reducing stress and suicidality.

> seem to conjecture that refering someone to a hotline raises the chance of that person commiting suicide

I don't conjecture this at all.

> all the evidence points towards suicide hotlines being effective at reducing stress and suicidality.

What evidence? The entire point of this subthread is that we don't have any evidence that this is true. Or do you have some evidence we don't know about?

I'm not suicidal at the moment and feel that my life has some purpose - but why would I assume that a person who is suicidal knows less about his own life than I do?

However, deciding to commit suicide due to intractable terminal illness is often done in a very rational state of mind.

The big difference is that the later is a decision that is/should not be made alone, but with the assistance of your family, friends and or doctor.

Yes, these are only parts of life, and suicide ends life as a whole - but you have reasons why you're not stopping all of your friends from making all the small wrong decisions, right? You probably reason that they might know better, and if anything, their freedom includes the right to make mistakes.

Well, the same reasoning logically works for suicide, too - the magnitude of the components change, but the formula is still the same. I agree that it's a good idea to talk to someone who tries to commit suicide and make sure that they really want to make this decision and have thought about it - but our culture, meanwhile, painfully rejects the notion that in the end, you may agree with that person in their pursuit of suicide.

On another hand, you probably (statistically, given HN typical audience) support right to euthanasia; you think that if someone have immense physical suffering and no hope to escape from it, death is a viable alternative. But why do we reject the same treatment for emotional and intellectual suffering? You can't really feel both types, but for some reason, you suppose that one is more 'real' than another. That any emotional trouble can be healed, because "it's just in your head".

Respect for someone's freedom begins with respect for his decisions and respect for his mistakes. Too often the true reason for all this unasked for "help" is in selfish desire to "do good" instead of real empathy for another human being.

I speak as someone who has been there, is currently taking antidepressants, and has seriously considered the option at multiple times in my life. Depression will tell you there is no other method of relief from the pain, but depression lies.

Personally, if someone told me in advance that, if they ever attempted suicide, they'd like me to not interfere - then I'd accept that. But I have a friend who's alive because she hadn't told me that, and I did interfere, and she's glad I did.

http://acsh.org/news/2017/03/16/suicides-rural-america-incre...

Are there other interventions that are better than hotlines?

https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/guns https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/gun-control-pt-2

Crisis hotlines are definitely doing things, even if the suicide prevention analysis bit is inconclusive.

Wow, that's unfortunate. I wonder if any follow-up studies have been done with more modern technology. For instance would / does SMS or other message services fair better than a phone call today than the phone call itself faired in 2004?

I wonder if there are any ways to help when simply existing as an anonymous person on the internet. You always see hotlines and other resources copied and pasted and I had always hoped they helped.

This could mean switching careers, getting divorced, cutting ties with friends, moving far away, or a combination thereof. After all, suicide would end all of those things too, in a worse way. So if you were willing to do that most final and extreme action, why not just say screw it and start driving? After all you'd have nothing to lose compared to suicide.

In some cases just the realization that one can make changes is significant.

I'm kind of suicide those original career goals at the moment, but want to make sure I gave life somewhat of the biggest attempt I could.

I think the problem with it that if you are at that point, you're already feeling utterly hopeless.

Suggesting that someone who's suicidal:

* willingly loses everything in their life

* starts from nothing

* fights their way through the chaos that is building a new life for yourself

* in a strange and unknown place

* with no support at all

is naive and unhelpful.

To me it also feels pretty dismissive, up there with "you should smile more".

Your comment shows a lack of understanding of suicidal thinking across a population.

I can't help but think that this is not just an Uber culture problem but a problem of culture in general. Hyper productivity is so in fashion and I don't think it's good for us.

I spent a number of years in tech in Vancouver and during my time I went though a period of unconscious breakdown which ended up with me in the hospital with perimyocarditis (heart failure due to unknown reasons, ie: stress).

After a number of years doing what I have aspired to do for what is really the majority of my conscious life, I ended up quitting my career and just leaving altogether. I met a girl, she was not from my country, and when she had to leave, I took the opportunity as an out from the life that I was living. At the same time, I began using photography as a way to explore my new city and as a creative outlet, as tech no longer was that outlet and became a source of stress.

The interesting thing is, once I left tech and began to put my free time in to photography I got caught up in the same culture that I've been trying to leave. Managing Instagram, Facebook, 500px, Flickr, and YouTube profiles to garner my following. The constant idolization of " work work work" I see YouTubers and IGers tout. Constantly judging myself against other people. Always feeling like I'm not good enough yet or that I'm lacking in talent that other naturally have. Believing that I'm not living my life correctly in relation to the perceived 10xers around me. Chasing the illusion of the 1%.

This article handed me an epiphany. I'm only taking the life I want to leave with me.

Why is it so that I feel the need to chase hyper productivity as a measurement of success?

The ideals of Protestant Work Ethic have historically dominated north american culture, and provided a work-oriented definition of personal worth. Nose to the grind stone as the most salient measure of personal contribution...

It's one of the reasons I believe that aggressive photography is so common from American, German, and Japanese tourists: it's a vacation-job to fill the days so that even vacation seems like needed production.

Fevered work dreams do not a life make, and cameras quickly turn into filters to avoid experiencing things directly. And the bottom line is that we all need to learn to sit on the floor and play like a 2 year old, without filters and without external expectations.

> Uber denied the benefits claim through its insurance carrier.

That seems like an extremely terrible move, even if Uber might be technically correct. Deciding to do that makes them look awful, and I think that's what matters most, given everything else contributing to their public image right now. It could have been a great opportunity to look magnanimous.

Note: IANAL and didn't even know what California law was in regards to insurance claims and suicide. Genuinely curious as to the technicalities of the law, and in this case specifically.

> Ultimately, the WCAB emphasized that it was the “work condition that must be uncommon, unusual, or totally unexpected” in order to qualify as an extraordinary employment condition

So, I wonder if by rejecting the claim, Uber is claiming that whatever work conditions Thomas was facing is normal. I wonder if the converse is also true, that accepting the claim also means Uber claims that his work conditions were actually unusual.

[1] http://pknwlaw.com/Newsletters/2015/Q1/2-LC3208.html

> Deciding to do that makes them look awful, and I think that's what matters most

Yeah a dude was driven to kill himself and left his family behind and some bad optics are what matter most, please tell me I'm misreading this somehow?

If you experience this level of pressure, quit. And then start looking. Do not be influenced that your boss is the boss of your life or your career for that matter.

If you've got a family to take care of, quickly join a consulting firm. Worst case you'll have to travel some, but it buys you some mental time to start looking for another job. And it sure beats Hell. People WILL tell you to not quit but they won't know how much pressure your in. They don't need to know. Just quit and find a better place. Garden, paint, chill with your espresso, take up that book you never read, or that new lang you never used. Do something positive.

You hold the power to fix this. Quit, and find a new Job. Do it for yourself, do it for your family, for your friends, do it for open source communities that you contribute to.

There is always a way out, and don't let anyone make you think that the only way out is a tiny little door -- to hell. Because what they don't tell you is that the door is fake. Your already in hell.

Bust down the walls of your mind and get out.

if it's really a matter of life and death, and it is, then doing what you need to do in order to step off the ledge is the only thing that matters.

I'm sure your worth is more than just Alimony.

The question is why? what conditions need to occur where a man who most likely can get another job easily enough and who has switched jobs before decides that ending his life his a better course of action then switching jobs.

They wrote that he eventually saw a psychiatrist, was he prescribed SSRI medication (I.E. Prozac)? If so, the other articles on HN suggest that that may be the cause, and not Uber's work environment.

All of that isn't to say to Uber's work environment is ok, but unless there was some form of coercion to keep the job (debt, noncompetitive wages, medical insurance issues), I don't think it's fare to blame Uber for the suicide. Mass worker exodus or a union is the way to change a company's work environment.

It is not an easy step to take. I was 24-25, enrolled in a Master's program (easy enough to explain why I left without a job) living in a house that I was not paying rent for and had the full support of both my parents and my fiancé. I didn't want to be a burden to my family. I was scared it would take me another 7 months to find a job like it did when I graduated from college in 2010. I had bills to pay. All of that was overwhelming despite me logically knowing I would be fine and that I wouldn't starve or go homeless or miss a bill payment because my fiancé or parents had stated so.

I can only imagine the pressures he thought he faced at home if he felt like it was his responsibility to take care of his family. It was probably so overwhelming that he saw no other out.

It is hard to describe to someone who never experienced a job that is overwhelmingly and exclusively awful how much of an impact it makes on you. And I am not talking about a job that you don't like or don't enjoy. I mean a job that has zero redeeming qualities and a culture that is incredibly toxic. You feel like a failure at work. You are miserable. And you see an out (quitting) but if you quit (without a job) there are a whole bunch of questions. And in some ways those unknowns are even worse than the misery. But then you go back in the next day and go "no way the prospect of losing my home can be worse than this." Then you go home and it is "no way my job can be worse than losing my home and failing my wife and kids." And it both cases you realize that, yes, somehow, both of those statements are true. The job is more miserable than losing the home which is more miserable than the job which is more miserable than letting down my wife and kids which is more miserable than my job which is more miserable than...

... and suddenly you find yourself with a gun in the front seat of your car because there is nothing in life that is not miserable. Nothing.

This is one of the most brilliantly perceptive comments I have read here. I encourage you to write an article based on this.

I will add this tidbit... you would literally have to pay me "f--k you" levels of money for a middling developer to even think of going back to that company. My professor had the ability to get my a coding job at a completely different location (physical and business-side) inside that same company (I was in Procurement previously) for about 150k (almost 3x what I was making). $150k in a rust belt city is a lot of money. Due to my work history there I would have been immediately vested and they had a 6% 100% match on a 401k. My commute would have been 10 minutes. I literally laughed at him. The amount of money that could get me back in those doors is way out of the reach of a 9-5 systems programmer. The first dollar figure where I would have to pause would be in the $1 mil a year range. And I honestly don't know if I would have said yes even to that.

I think many very pertinent stories and points of view never surface because of the very real threat of retaliation or ostracism - burning bridges, as you say.

I think that people who expose the mistakes, weaknesses, and perhaps even evildoing associated with people and companies are seen in the collective mind as whistleblowers, who appear usually to be regarded - and treated - badly. This is a sad but real tendency of human nature.

The irony is that many whistleblowers do a great public service, and at the very least keep entities honest by exposing their wrongs. If everyone turned aside and pretended not to notice that the emperor had no clothes, we would be in a dark place indeed.

This isn't a criticism, by the way: I suffer from the same misgivings, which war against my instinct and desire to tell the stories of the injustices I've seen firsthand.

I wish I knew the answer.

From my perspective (which isn't as bad as considering suicide over changing a job...but still pretty bad in terms of depression), there's a huge mental block in terms of ability to interview, especially given the terrible interview practices across most of the industry (5+ hour algorithm regurgitation sessions).

This would require "studying" algorithms for hours a day to refresh my memory. In my currently depressed state there's not a chance that I could bring myself to do that once I'm off work for the day...nor could I possibly imagine even participating in the interview process itself right now even if I felt confident in my ability to vomit back algorithms to the interviews.

Sometimes the answers just aren't easy.

Leaving means some wont see their equity grants vest. Some may be forced into major tax payments if they leave (due to options.) And some lose it alltogether. The way these things work, sometimes you end up paying enormous taxes and still end up with largely illiquid equity, which may remain illiquid for years. It is hard enough to land a job where the equity is worth something. People stick it out because a liquidity event can be life changing and liberating.

I realize equity agreements are created for retention, but they have the unfortunate impact of keeping people in jobs when it is better for both employee and employer to part ways. Something needs to be done about that. I don't know what.

In the case of this 'one friend', she was not handcuffed to a job because of equity considerations. Therefore, no problem for her to quit.

Kind of works against your original point, not for it.

Not sure why this would be surprising -- this situation is very common across startups. I am a co-founder also, and I have equity vesting agreements, understandably, as I want retention; I don't want employees constantly leaving with the next wind that blows. At the same time, I'd hate to keep a miserable employee who isn't fully productive. I'd like to think I set a good enough workplace culture that there wouldn't be harassment/bullying, but who knows...

What is more wicked, and beyond me as a business owner, is US tax treatment on illiquid equity. That really needs to change.

But I don't care how we talk about it -- we've lost too many good people in this world because we're afraid to talk about well-known and well-documented side effects.

Just last weekend (Friday), I thought I had reached my breaking point. I could not handle my job, my friends, my parents and my side idea to the point I convinced myself that the only solution to my problems was suicide. I went on to 4chan to ask for help on the quickest solution.

The only reason I'm alive today is because Amazon does not have a quick shipping policy (what I ordered would have taken me over a week to receive). Now I'm taking one day at a time in the hope that I don't reach that situation again.

I truly feel sad for both the Engineer and his family!

We have this problem in our American culture: If we're not careful, we begin to derive our self worth from our work. You can choose not to do that. Quit, and when you're ready to go back to work, work to live, not the other way around. Fuck it, take something menial for a bit that doesn't follow you home.

I had this almost this same experience 2 years ago (we were at the job for the same length of time even, five months), and it led to a long period of depression for me. I didn't kill myself, but I have to tell you, I could see how someone could.

In my circumstance I interviewed as a Senior Engineer, and got offered a Lead engineer position because apparently I had impressed everyone so much (this is important because later, they would claim I wasn't even good enough to be a senior engineer). I erroneously thought that I would get support and encouragement, I got none of those things. Worse still I was the only black engineer in the entire company at that location, which left me incredibly isolated during my work days, when things got really really rough.

Essentially, 70 days into my tenure, despite 30 and 60 day reviews that seemed fine, my manager and architect of the codebase I worked on, decided I wasn't up to snuff, and essentially started a process of managing me out of the company. My manager was a very smart engineer but a world class jerk, so when I complained to HR about the unfairness, he was demoted so that both of us were now leads, but guess what?

The Performance improvement process continued ... I got a new boss, but he just picked up where the other guy left off. The kicker?

He worked in another city so he actually got feedback on my performance from guess who? my new peer, who clearly now had an axe to grind.

Everything was downhill from there, everything I did was shit, everything. I remember going into work one day and my boss sending me an email that essentially said "you're not performing at lead engineer level, and you are not even at senior engineer level, if we're being honest", great morale boost.

When I tried to ask for help (remember I'd never been a lead before) it was turned around as me trying to assign blame to other people. I had nobody to help me, and worse, I was the only black engineer at that location. I felt like and absolute failure everyday for 30 days (they had a 90 day introductory period, so they gave me an additional 30 days to "prove" myself, but in addition I had to agree to that Performance improvement plan, I mentioned earlier.

At one point, I was barely sleeping, was super stressed out and anxious, even on weekends. I'd go into meetings with my new boss, and the old one (remember he's my peer now) with his superior knowledge of the code base (he built it) would throw me under the bus, claiming I wouldn't hit my dates, or that my estimates were wrong. Openly, in front of 7 or 8 people, and the new boss would tolerate it.

To add to all this, I was on an h1b, and had left a job that was processing my green card to join this new company. So if I lost the job, I would be right back to square one with everything, and I'd have to find a job within 30 days. Throw that in the mix with being told everyday that I was crap, not having anyone at work to talk to about what was going on, being on a performance improvement plan and walking around totally humiliated wondering what everyone must think of the dumb black engineer who couldn't even hack it a couple of months.

Anyway, the final straw came when I delivered my project pretty much on time, but my boss changed his tune from "poor performance" to "culture fit". I had known the game was rigged and I was just being managed out, but at that moment I knew it for a fact, and asked to be allowed to give 2 weeks notice, but spend the 2 weeks at home not working for the company, but looking for a job.

They agreed to that, and I was gone.

But that wasn't the end of that. turns out that at the end of that 2 weeks they had my h1b revoked (usually companies will let it sit a few weeks, especially if they know you're looking for work). This meant that when I landed a job 30 days later, my visa couldn't be transferred, and the company had to take back their offer, and move on.

If not for an amazing lawyer who worked some black magic to get my green card 8 months later, (I had an approved i140 from an earlier job, but didn't realize the significance of that, turns out, its VERY significant). I really don't know what I would have done.

Those 8 months were truly some dark times, I left the job in October, and let me tell you, being out of work over holidays is no joke, everyone is out making plans and traveling to see family, and there you are contemplating the epic shit your life has become, almost overnight. In addition to failing so badly at a job I desperately wanted to succeed in, I couldn't work for 8 months, and even worse, didn't know if I'd be allowed to stay in the country. I was pretty depressed, but I had a group of engineering friends that helped me keep my spirits up, and listened to my rants (no idea how they put up with it honestly), and I think the biggest thing was that a good friend of mine (pretty much my sister), got me into therapy. That was MASSIVE.

If not for that ... who the fuck knows.

So yeah ... I can totally see the cascade of events that lead to this mans death, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of horrible management, as was the case for me. I wouldn't be shocked to find that he was placed on a performance improvement plan, and just ... gave up.

PS: I'm a bit of a fighter, I don't shirk from an argument, and I'll call bs when I see it. This has got me in trouble at a couple of places I've worked, but ironically, thats probably something that helped me power through the absolute disgrace of an experience that I went through. I could see how a more mild mannered person, especially a high achiever would just ... not.

I mean, can you imagine having to explain to your wife and Children that you're on a performance improvement plan (which I'm almost 100% sure that this man was on). As a man that has to absolutely destroy you. I didn't even tell my parents and brothers what had happened for several months, I was just too ashamed.

http://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu/

http://itrevolution.com/karojisatsu-in-plain-english-burnout...

We have to band together and do something about this plague...

@botchagalupe

[1] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/comedy-545-v17n10

  Free markets just means 
  unregulated capitalism just means 
  out-of-control companies ruining workers lives.

  This isn't unique to Uber.

It is hard to describe to someone who never experienced a job that is overwhelmingly and exclusively awful how much of an impact it makes on you. And I am not talking about a job that you don't like or don't enjoy. I mean a job that has zero redeeming qualities and a culture that is incredibly toxic.

You feel like a failure at work, but there is nothing you can do to improve or impress the higher ups. Nothing is good enough. Period. Managers are instructed not to give out performance reviews any higher than a 3/5 for their best performers because the company does not want to pay out bonuses. You can be outputting 44% of the work of a 13 person team and you are called out by your immediate supervisor because you had a word document open and "it was closed the next time I walked by. So you clearly are not working your full 8 hours a day." You have to handle the work of three, then four, then five people because everyone else seems to be getting hired elsewhere and quitting. And the company certainly isn't replacing them. (Cost savings, yay!) You aren't able to find a new job despite putting out dozens of feelers and going to a couple interviews a month, and getting to the final interview rounds for 3 or 4 jobs. Congratulations, you worthless POS. You cannot even get hired out of that company. Maybe you really are that awful of an employee. You are miserable. And you see an out (quitting) but if you quit (without a job) there are a whole bunch of questions. Will someone like you ever be able to find work again? If you can't find work over five months while you are employed, what makes you think you would stand out anymore if you were unemployed? And in some ways the unknowns caused by quitting are even worse than the misery.

So, you go back in the next day and go "no way the prospect of losing my home can be worse than this." Then you go home and it is "no way my job can be worse than losing my home and failing my wife and kids." And in both cases you realize that, yes, somehow, both of those statements are true. The job is more miserable than losing the home which is more miserable than the job which is more miserable than letting down my wife and kids which is more miserable than my job which is more miserable than losing my home which is more miserable than my job which is more miserable than letting my family starve which is more miserable than my job...

...and suddenly you find yourself with a gun in the front seat of your car because there is nothing in life that is not miserable. Nothing.

I was able to quit my toxic job. But if I was in a situation similar to that of Mr. Thomas, I can easily see why he thought he only had one option. And it is heartbreaking for his family.

It would also be a nice move of HN to help them out since this is a huge problem in the startup world!

I wonder what would happen if companies with high-stress environments employed on-site counselors. even if employees have outside help already, as mr. thomas did, it's very difficult -- for so many reasons -- to approach HR or consider a medical leave due to stress or mental illness. maybe creating a less daunting first step could help. in general, getting employers more proactively involved in asking how their employees are doing -- and if they need time off to heal -- could go a long way. at a certain point, an individual's motivation or willpower will not turn a situation like this one around, but outside intervention still might. how do we effectively intervene sooner?

Edit: I`ve been through two burnouts while working remotely. Gave it up for good, happily working in my city and have freedom, dignity and respect now. It is a human need.

Edit2: F*ck Uber.

Bad things happen but its how we respond that shines a ray of light through the darkness. It may gives others stuck in a similar situation a context.

Sometimes we just have to stop and consider where we are as a collective. The sense of bleakness of an uncaring unfeeling world is devastating I think to even the most cynical amongst us. When money is put above everything what is left is this dehumanizing bleakness. And wealth for those who embrace it.

People are good in the right environment and with the right team. If the fit is bad, it could be a lose-lose.

I've seen great people (I personally knew) do worse in a subsequent job, and vice-versa - people who were subpar in a previous job do great at a new gig.

As an indie developer doing one sort of 'dream job' (distributing exceptional software for free and moving towards open source, supported entirely by voluntary small contributions like some DSP Bernie) it's pretty easy for me to see the catch.

You can do anything you want IF you 'have the skills' and are 'amazing'. If you're not sufficiently amazing, then you're fooling yourself and might as well suicide (that's the feeling) because you're doomed anyhow. There is no one specific level of 'the skills' or 'amazing', it's a sort of sliding scale in which you can begin to lose simply because everyone around you took a level in 'amazing'. And everyone around you is incredibly driven and desperate…

You can call this motivational and not be so far wrong, but there's a really dark side when society is set up to have harsh punishments for losing. Ain't no welfare T-Bone steaks for homeless people pooping in the streets of San Francisco. I can't help but feel that in the Bay Area, there's no clear floor you can drop to. You can be amazing… or you can be NOT amazing, and there might be a level of 'untouchable caste' to the NOT amazing.

My own psychological method of fighting this (in my field there's definitely an element of 'abandon the losers before they saddle you with being associated with their fail') is to be defiant, claiming that I'm very poor but on an upward trajectory because I've seen the light of Open Source etc, that I am audaciously redefining what it means to be a dev/creator, and might decide to be always poor as dirt just to be defiant about it. It does keep me from suicide: finally committing to that POV made a noticeable difference. I think this attitude is echoed among other open-sourcers.

Or rather you have to shake off the years of schooling where you've been judged and accepted it.

Living below your means is a good ethic that allows you to battle idiot bosses.

Defiance of the lunacy in the workplace is key for mental health.

And no cop-out answers like "Don't make an environment that pressures people" (everyone has deadlines, pressure is ubiquitous). What, specifically, would you do tomorrow to prevent this in the future if you were the CEO of Uber?

Resign, and recommend someone in my stead who is capable of managing a more compassionate organization into existence. Those exist - and conversely, the apparent shit-show that is Uber is driven from the top-down.

I would have resigned a loooong time before this.

The worst in this situation is that the person is unable to clearly understand the severity of the situation and take an action so the role of friends and family becomes the critical one.

Presuming that even if there was some positive story to come out of Uber and that news editors know negative stories about Uber brings in clicks, when has anything positive regarding them come to light?

Ever hear the saying "where there's smoke, there's fire"? At this point I'd really have to evaluate whether or not Uber is the right kind of fit for anyone to be working there. There are other options.

How stupid are you if you're willing to sacrifice your life (literally) for work. Yeah... I'm sure your employer will recipocrate... (not)

So yeah, being able to quit and leave whenever I want and take 2-3 months of break does take off a lot of weight from one's shoulders. 40 hours a week with no overtime or on-call for me! I will not be the employee with the mad bonuses when the time comes for that, but I will also be the one not on medication/suicide watch/psychiatric aid. The company will have a stable workforce that is able to care an adequate amount for the company's well-being, and I will not spend my bonus on keeping my health intact. If you don't want to employ such a person, I don't want to work for you either. Easy as that. :^)

So yeah, the essence of my comment, I would say, is that make sure you have financial get-away. You don't have to subscribe to the crazy USA way of overtime>money>health issues>expenses>overtime to compensate for expenses. Having a small vegetable garden also helps, or just caring for plants on your windowsill.

Also, cats.

I speak from experience.

Confidence and security I guess can never come externally. I'm better at it than when I was younger, but I haven't arrived yet.

So cut some slack, put in the hours contractually necessary, but don't break your neck being at work 9AM sharp, meeting arbitrary deadlines set by management, or attending the meetings you could have just set to "tentative, but I'll probably pass, thanks".

1. Seems like it might be criminal to walk off the job if you're a surgeon in the middle of a operation, firefighter at a fire, etc.

2. Otherwise, it seems possible that you could be sued by your employer for walking off the job but criminal, probably not.

3. If my employer tried to physically prevent me from leaving work, I'd call the police immediately.

I'm guessing you'll bring in more per hour than they will, even with their bonus.

The trick there is to at least do the hard stuff some of the time so you stay up to date and ready for the next thing.

Edit: Apparently this was a repost of the story, initially posted 15 hours ago (and 8 hours ago again):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14194112

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14198372

Edit again: Now this submission has also been marked as dupe after 1 hour of front-page. Looks like mods don't really want this story to get too much attention.

For example, HN has a plethora of stories about abuses at and by major corps and they often stay on the front page. Someone with a more pro-business bias would look at the same front pages as you and see the opposite 'major trend'. In fact I'm sure someone is, right now.

As for shadowy brigades of astroturfers behind story flagging, that is so classic a cognitive bias that we just ask people not to go there. The users who flag stories you favor aren't shills—they're normal users like everyone else, who simply have different views about what belongs on HN. Exceptions to that exist, but they're so rare as to have zero explanatory power. If you want more info about this, I've posted countlessly about it: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&prefix=true&page=0&dateR....

If an Uber executive or PR person were particularly unscrupulous (would that surprise anyone at all?), another method would be to say something really insensitive in a thread like this and start a flame war to trigger HN's ranking algorithm. Imagine how easy that would be... a somewhat carefully disguised comment with the sentiment of "depression is just weakness, suck it up!" would rightfully send this thread into a frenzy of angry commentary and downvoting.

I'm not saying it figures in any specific thread or context, just that it's possible that bot capabilities may outstrip HN's ability to detect them.

Also, it would be an interesting read if you could publish some of the findings as a post or something.