Wouldn't this cafe eventually be filled with freeloaders who pay 9 pounds per day in order to get gourmet coffee and food all day long? That's a pretty good deal if you're a cheapskate living in london. Sandwhiches can be 9 pounds by themselves.
The impression I get from [1] is when a reporter visited the food was biscuits, peanut butter, toast and an onion (Apparently customers are invited to bring and cook their own food)
£9 would get you four loaves of bread[2] and three jars of peanut butter[3]. You'd have to be pretty hungry to eat enough of that for them to make a loss.
I assume the concept is fairly experimental at the moment, presumably they won't want people sprinting in, making an espresso for 3p and running out. Or I might have misunderstood what I read in [1]. In any case, it'll be interesting to see how it shakes out.
No, but if you have £9 a day you can buy a single loaf of bread and still have £8 left over.
I guess if you were homeless it might be worth £9 a day to have somewhere warm and indoors to stay, but the free entry museums, art galleries and libraries don't seem to get full of homeless people.
I have heard reports of 'pay what you like' restaurants getting filled up with homeless people, so I can see where you're coming from.
Whilst this is probably a joke, it's still a sweeping generalisation of the homeless that paints those in an incredibly unfortunate position as nothing more than cider swigging alcoholics. There are few things that irk me more than vilification of the homeless
I don't want to vilify my fellow Londoners, but to me, that's more a sweeping generalization of London. Getting wasted seems to be the #1 hobby of most the people I know here, no reason the homeless cannot have their share of fun.
It is no doubt a joke, and in my eyes a funny one at that. I wouldn't get too offended by it :) I know the local homeless around this area and there are very few that fit that stereotype
>I have heard reports of 'pay what you like' restaurants getting filled up with homeless people, so I can see where you're coming from.
That's really funny. Who would have thought there were more people who like eating for cheap than people who like paying for other people to eat for cheap?
Homeless people don't always have the energy to walk around 24/7 in the museum, and they probably have "no loitering" laws. As in you can't just sleep on a bench in the basement all day and scare the children.
There are a few of those progressive "pay what you want" styled restaurants in Toronto, Canada.
But when it comes down to it... they're actually $12/meal minimum throughout the week, and on wednesdays (most B&M business' slowest day in north america at least) they offer something like 50 meals which are "pay what you want" and once they're out of food, they're out.
In other words, "pay what you want" restaurants don't technically exist. Not in the long run. They're more of a marketing gimmick if you ask me.
This sounds ridiculously frugal, but if you're hard up for cash but have a freezer and a toaster, then freezing bread and toasting it up again can make some pretty awesome sandwiches. You can also stick really cheap bulk-buy cheese on it and make a mini cheese toastie.
That said, if I were still poor, I wouldn't want to keep my stuff in the freezer at one of these pay-per-minute cafes, because it'd be gone by the next time you got to it. I also assume that they lock up at night, so I'm not really sure how this'd help vagrants all that much.
However, if you happened to be lucky with the other people in the cafe (i.e. no-one being obnoxious or noisy), then it makes a ridiculously cheap coworking space.
Your every day grocery store bread tastes about the same after being frozen, and eaten later on. I know at my parent's place, my mom usually has 5 or 6 in the freezer, because she lives outside of town, so it makes more sense to stock up. I live in the city, by myself, so sometimes I'll buy a loaf, make some sandwiches, and toss the rest in the fridge. I don't mind it a little cold, and it doesn't go moldy before I'm able to eat the rest. If I buy fresh bread from the bakery or market, I just eat the entire thing within a day or two because it's delicious, and freezing would be a sin.
If you were really poor, a bread machine is probably the easiest & cheapest way to make bread. It comes out to be around 25 cents a loaf, and you can control how much you want to make per batch. You only really need yeast and flour. However, the $25 bread machine is a small investment required.
Wouldn't making it by hand and throwing it in an oven be cheaper?
Although it depends on your oven if gas or electric, your time and effort, how much power a bread machine uses. The oven makes bread far better than a bread machine but a bread machine is better than mass produced, sliced, preservative laden white bread.
But you could time it so the bread is baked when the oven is used for cooking supper.
A toaster oven with small bread pans also works great and is more versatile for about $10 more. Among other things I made sweetbread this way for several months when I was in college using instant pancake mix mixed with cracked wheat.
Making your bread by hand is cheaper. And I'd drop the yeast. Just do your own wild-caught sourdough. (You do need salt, however. Bread without salt doesn't really work. And water.)
If you're only optimising for cost, sure. If you're also optimising for effort, yeast is a no-brainer.
The machine is useful if you're not good at/willing to/able to plan a bit. You have to do a number of steps on a schedule when baking by hand, there's only one to worry about with a machine.
I do that anyway even for a single loaf of bread since I hate dry, stale bread. The freezer keeps it fresh and to make toast just throw the frozen slices into a toaster, no need to thaw first.
Yea--I grew up in the "if you want something to eat learn
how to cook Dude". Plus, my girlfriends we so terrible(I think they were rebelling, or though it was cute?)
at cooking. One of the first things I learned how to
make was bread, but it always came out terrible, except pizza dough. I have perfected rice with a steamer though.
Rice is cheap if you are strapped.
Very true. We don't eat enough bread to keep the loaf fresh for its lifetime, and we are then left with chucking bread out.
Instead, we split the loaf and use slices as necessary.
Freeze it, then after a bit of experimentation, you can find the perfect toaster setting to defrost it (and even have it warm) without toasting it. I do it all the time.
What really annoys me is that it's possible to make bread that lasts for >30 days, but they don't due to people's stupid phobias of food treatments. Before I started freezing it all the time, I used to waste so much from it going mouldy, so I'd bet many people still do.
I don’t think so. The Anticafé in Paris has the exact same concept with roughly the same pricing (€14/day), and has been open for more than 8 months now. AFAIK they don’t have such problem and the place is crowded by students and 20-something with MacBooks everywhere. They don’t offer sandwichs so it’s hard to have a "real" lunch here, you’d better go buy a €4 sandwich elsewhere and come back eat it there. As students, we don’t really come there for the free food, but because you can stay all the day working without being disturbed by a waiter asking you to leave.
Is the cafe very loud? Are people generally respectful of each other? These are the only real concerns I'd have with using such a cafe as a working space.
Or if someone is a real cheapskate, they could come here twice a day (£3.6) for two meals. They have coffee, fruits, veges and a kitchen - what else do you need?
You can go and sit downstairs in the Google Campus cafe for free and get 70MB/s internet, which is just around the corner. That's where the freeloaders go :)
The information in that article is incorrect. The Café at Google Campus is (and has always been) free to use, although the tea and coffee is indeed paid separately. Alternatively you can pay to become a 'Resident' on the other floors where you can enjoy free tea and coffee.
I think the author was hoping to encourage startups out of the free seats! ;)
As mentioned above, the cafe is free and run by Central Working. You can use it Monday to Friday, 9am - 6pm. You get free wifi. You have to pay for coffee, but it is very good (provided by Dose Espresso, who use Square Mile Roasters).
TechHub (who run 1st and 2nd floors) offer resident or flex membership. Flex gives you access Monday - Friday, 9am - 8pm. Resident gives you 24/7 access with your own desk. Everybody gets free coffee and toast.
3rd floor changes from month to month, but doesn't usually offer coworking.
Seedcamp are on the 4th floor. Obviously, you only get to use that space if you have been accepted into Seedcamp.
Used to work at a coworking space near there that was £40 for 2 days a week, a really great deal. Wish I could find anything approaching that in Melbourne, for some reason they are incredibly expensive hear in Australia.
I really think all coffee shops should start charging people for loitering long after they have finish their coffee.
I live in Toronto and I can't remember when was the last time my wife and I were able to enjoy a latte while sitting at a Starbucks or Timothys. Nowadays, it seems all coffee shops are overrun with kids doing their homework or whatever. The worst part is that the laptop/tablet people barely make eye contact with others; they are so engrossed in their screen !
Thankfully,we found a smaller coffee shop which does not offer Wifi and where the owners discourage loitering / homeworks.
When I was at U of T, I used to blame all the coffee shops being filled with students on the university not providing adequate work/study space for its 44,000 students (a few of my friends got banned from a nearby Second Cup after using a booth at the back to solder circuit boards for a design project).
After graduating I moved to the suburbs, where Starbucks is rammed with high school students doing homework but the public library across the street is empty despite having more comfortable seating, faster Wi-Fi and you know, actually being intended as an open public space for quiet reading and study.
Does the library sell good coffee and tea which you're allowed to take to the workspaces, and have pleasant lighting?
My old college's library would allow you to bring in beverages in containers that have tight-fitting lids, and was well-lit and comfortable. It was also jammed with students in there studying at all hours. The university I live near now allows zero food or beverages and has cheap, eye strain inducing fluorescent lighting, and it's a ghost town. The only reason I spend any time studying there is that as a non-student I'm not allowed to check out books.
Subjective, and goodness of coffee is not binary. Starbucks coffee is, IMO, better than what you find at most "affordable" restaurants, sandwich shops, diners, etc.
If you a coffee connoisseur, it may not be good. But most people aren't, they just want something better than Folgers.
There's also the McDonald's effect: it may not be great, but it's pretty much the same everywhere. You know what you are going to get before you go in.
I don't look down on Starbucks because it's trendy, but because the coffee is poorer than even average cafés in my city...
You can see just from looking in the grinders that their beans are over-roasted (which I guess improves consistency but destroys flavour) and they make up for that with syrups huge amounts of milk.
I have huge respect for what Starbucks does. For decades, most roasters got their start at Starbucks or Tullys.
In the 10 million pounds of beans Starbucks buys every year, there's some percentage that must be awesome. Buying for myself, I'll get seasonals, varietals, vs the blends. Panama, harar, sumatra. Starbucks also sells whole bean light roast for tastes like my gf's, like the blond, which is sometimes available as drip over the counter.
But mostly I buy either Herkimer or Lighthouse. They're indies, who obsess over the product, from purchasing thru roasting thru pulling the shots.
If you actually read why they pick Nespresso, "the best taste" is not part of the reasons. They cite size, cost, consistency, usability, etc.
"in our business, you spend so much time trying to be perfect with food and service that it's very hard to put the same dedication into a coffee program."
Don't get me wrong, it's better than what I drink at home, but it's hardly great coffee.
Do you really think that at 3 star restaurants, where they have about 5 staff per customer, they would serve Nespresso if they thought it isn't good coffee? Sure, it may not be the best coffee in the world, but even 3 star restaurants, which usually spare any expense to improve the quality do not think it is economical to make better coffee themselves. Do they think that Nespresso doesn't have good taste and just "consistency"? Of course not.
Can you show me any evidence that better coffee can be obtained in a reasonable other way?
I know it is romantic to think that you can make better coffee yourself, but lets see what you're up against. Nespresso burns and grinds and vacuum seals coffee that is then placed into a machine that delivers a fixed amount of water at a particular speed and temperature. All the parameters in this process have been tuned by professionals backed up by panels of taste testers. Being at home gives you no particular advantage. Why would a restaurant be able to do better, let alone significantly better, at a reasonable price and effort? Contrast this with, for instance, making bread. Bread tastes 10 times better when it is fresh. Unlike coffee, vacuum sealing a bread is impossible. So even if a factory managed to bake a bread with perfectly tuned parameters, by the time that bread is on your table it doesn't taste great anymore. Coffee simply doesn't have this.
Do you really think that at 3 star restaurants, where they have about 5 staff per customer, they would serve Nespresso if they thought it isn't good coffee?
It doesn't matter what I think, you can read what they said. Of course it's not Starbucks quality level, but it's not great coffee, just good enough for the other qualities to win over better tasting coffees.
Can you show me any evidence that better coffee can be obtained in a reasonable other way?
Sure, the way multiple coffee shops do so here: you buy a decent Italian espresso machine (such as a La Marzocco), you get a few baristas with a couple of decades or more of experience serving coffee, buy decent beans and grind them yourself daily.
Of course, this isn't reasonable if you're a restaurant which serves a few dozen cups a day, which are just a small part of the whole "product". But for a dedicated coffee shop, which might serve more than a hundred per day, the costs are reasonable.
I know it is romantic to think that you can make better coffee yourself
I didn't say that. I have a capsule machine myself. But I don't need to make better coffee to know that better coffee is made.
Nespresso burns and grinds and vacuum seals coffee that is then placed into a machine that delivers a fixed amount of water at a particular speed and temperature. All the parameters in this process have been tuned by professionals backed up by panels of taste testers.
Sure, Nespresso is a great value for its price. But nothing in that process is better than what I'm describing.
Why would a restaurant be able to do better, let alone significantly better, at a reasonable price and effort?
Not restaurant, coffee shop. And I don't know what you consider "reasonable". The reason they do better is because they have different constraints in terms of space, marginal costs per cup and importance of the coffee to their line up, which allows them to invest more in it.
Coffee simply doesn't have this.
Grinding many days in advance, even if vacuum sealed, does have an effect on the taste.
> Sure, the way multiple coffee shops do so here: you buy a decent Italian espresso machine (such as a La Marzocco), you get a few baristas with a couple of decades or more of experience serving coffee, buy decent beans and grind them yourself daily.
So which part of this makes the coffee better than Nespresso? Is the espresso machine doing something better than a nespresso machine? I don't think so. Are the beans being grinded better than in a nespresso factory? I don't think so. Are the beans themselves of higher quality than the ones that nespresso uses? Perhaps, though unlikely to be a significant difference unless you are willing to pay a much higher price, and even then. Even if these is some small advantage that the barista can have, does that weigh against the advantages that Nespresso has, namely being able to perfectly tune the whole process with taste testers?
> Grinding many days in advance, even if vacuum sealed, does have an effect on the taste.
Why? What is the difference between a coffee particle sitting "inside" a bean, and sitting tightly packed in a vacuum? And if there is an important difference, why is the former better? For all we know it tastes worse.
Admittedly not very scientific with a low sample size, but the result of this test was that Nespresso is better than the coffee of an experienced barista. At the very least there isn't an obvious perceptible difference in favor of the barista. Do you know of any blind taste tests showing the opposite?
Is the espresso machine doing something better than a nespresso machine? I don't think so.
Why not? Why is it so hard to believe that an hand-made machine that costs an order of magnitude more can actually produce a better result?
For example, the size allows the La Marzocco to have two different water heating chambers at different temperatures, which is impossible with the size of a Nespresso.
Even if these is some small advantage that the barista can have, does that weigh against the advantages that Nespresso has, namely being able to perfectly tune the whole process with taste testers?
It can't perfectly tune the process, because the machine itself isn't perfectly tuned. It's designed to be cheap, small and easy to mass-produce.
They do a great job, but the constraints are simply different.
Why? What is the difference between a coffee particle sitting "inside" a bean, and sitting tightly packed in a vacuum?
Because the exposure to some air has already happened, and the process doesn't stop after you closed it in vaccum (which itself is never perfect).
Do you know of any blind taste tests showing the opposite?
The key descriptors for Nespresso were ‘smooth’ and ‘easy to drink’. And from the point of view of restaurateurs who use it, the key word is ‘consistency’. It was far from bland, but it was not challenging or distinctive either. It’s a coffee everyone can really like but few will love: the highest common denominator, if you like
This assumes that people are going there for the drinks. Given the statement by the parent poster, it seems that they're hanging around long after they've finished their drinks, so that's probably not the reason they're there.
I honestly think public libraries should be allowed to use some of their money to advertise and create a brand for themselves. For a lot of people the thing deterring the usage of library is simply the idea that it's unexciting or doesn't offer enough, while usually a coffee shop is pretty much equal or worse. Of course it'll lead to people complaining how their tax money is being used for ads, but it makes libraries reach a larger audience and, in economic terms, improves well-being of more people.
Are there such arbitrary restrictions on budget spending by public libraries (in which states, or is that a federal thing)? I can accept that public libraries might be somewhat underfunded, and choose to not advertise -- but it sounds strange that they are somehow forbidden to do so? (At least here in Norway most of the public libraries does quite a lot of advertising -- it's hard to imagine any service remaining visible if it's banned from marketing...).
I believe (from second-hand sources) that many libraries in the US are required by their funders (state and municipal governments) to spend a certain fraction of their budgets on buying books.
Well, that doesn't sound too crazy ("you need to spend some part of your budget on actually being a library") -- but that shouldn't exclude all marketing -- unless that fraction is very high indeed...?
Coffee shops like Starbucks or Timothys are were not meant to be a work space . What bugs me is that coffee-shops used to play an important role in the community. Its where you went to dish the dirt, catch up with the neighborhood. It was like a bar for socializing without the alcohol . Now coffee shops are being overrun with laptop/tablet people working remotely seeking a work space. These people occupy spaces fo r long periods shutting out regular coffee-drinkers and without contributing any conversation or even a hello to the community.
Any development that lures these people away from my Starbucks is OK in my book.
There are a handful of coffee shops that actively don't want to be used by laptop/tablet users, and one way they signal that is by not offering wifi. It's not quite as effective a deterrent as it used to be with the advent of cheapish mobile data plans that have tethering, but it can give you an indication of what the shop expects its usage to be. Fins Coffee in Santa Cruz, CA is an example of a shop without wifi.
Given how heavily Starbucks not only offers but advertises its free Wifi (as does McDonald's), my guess is that they do actually intend their stores to attract laptop/tablet users.
Funny you should mention Santa Cruz, as I've also noticed there's a variety of styles of coffee shop in the area.
There's Verve downtown, where low table-density in a big room with a high ceiling creates islands where patrons can isolate themselves from one another. I'm guessing this makes it a place where (mostly young?) people can be productive on their devices.
Then there's a place like Lulu's (right across the street!), that's more cramped and has a more traditional/low-light ambiance, where it's basically impossible to ignore the people around you (I hope I don't make it sound like that's a bad thing).
Yeah, I used to live there, and I think it might be my favorite coffee-shop town. Lots of places and variety, especially considering the modest population. My own favorite one is probably Mr. Toots in Capitola (2nd story, & has a small balcony with ocean view).
For folks who are away from home, or otherwise on the road with a laptop, Starbucks is invaluable. There's a guarantee of transactional access to wifi, even though the quality of the wifi varies by location, and the only risk is finding a seat. I dislike hogging the tables at coffee shops near my house to work, but do so occasionally to help myself think -- but when I'm away from home I find Starbucks a very useful place to go and I'm not always near a local library or other alternative.
Seems funny to blame it on kids when you clearly have a undersupply of coffee shops. Personally, I never feel guilty about using my laptop - if the cofee shop is somewhat full, I just walk five feet to the next one.
I actually miss the "bar" at Tim Horton's, where you could once find conversation without having to bring your own friends with you. You could always retire to the tables if you had a family or group, but the bar was like dropping into the local pub for general socializing (without the slow slide into stupidity). As a young, frequently-moved fellow in the military, it was a great way to find some community outside of the "mob".
The most effective way for coffee shops/cafes to discourage people working for long periods without driving that business away altogether is to not provide any outlets! A cafe I like to work at takes that approach and it seems to do well for them. Most of their customers are there for coffee/food and conversation. I am mostly an anomaly for doing work there.
I think I saw a restaurant owner slashing prices if you just drop your smartphone at the counter before you sit. He was so annoyed of people not 'being' here.
So for 15p I can go in, make my own four-or-five shot latte, spill the milk everywhere because I'm hurrying, stuff my mouth full of biscuits, and walk out again?
Do they expect profit..? Or is the rest of the service industry just gouging us silly?
Yeah, and you can go to all-you-can-eat meals and skip eating a day before and after to get the most out of it.
I agree that the business might seem risky in quite some ways, but .. exploits like yours are probably possible in a lot of places. I'm reasonably sure that I could go to a good number of hotels, check in for a number of days, have my breakfast/empty the minibar and leave. Going to a cafe and leaving without paying is usually trivial, only social norms stop you from doing that (or .. don't).
- all hotels that I know of (and I traveled quite a lot. In fact I write this from a hotel in Bern, CH) charge you at the end of your stay. A good number of hotels don't check your ID/your personal information. My point above was to just leave early, with or without clearing the minibar. It's possible and not hard.
- I know more than a handful of people that just go to the reception, pay for the room. 'Sir, did you take anything from the minibar?' - 'No'. Of course they did. Now the hotel certainly can (after the guest departed) find out that it was cheated. And now .. what? The guest was probably from another country. Are you going to send a bill and hope for them to pay after lying to you previously? For a beer or three? Turns out .. a lot of hotels don't do that and never reach out to you.
(Disclaimer: I haven't done that myself, I'm too cheap to buy the minibar items. My minimbar, at right this moment, is filled with beer I bought at a supermarket and brought to my room. But I _have_ been part of these exploits over and over again, even standing next to people that declined the question of whether they used the minibar and I was in their room! There are usually no consequences. If there are, you can ignore it - or say 'Oh, yeah. My fault' and pay up without repercussions)
Hotels typically keep a credit card on file for incidental charges. Minibar items are covered under incidental charge if not paid at checkout time.
If a company credit card is kept on file and the guest doesn't pay for the minibar usage, the company's credit card is charged. The guest might think the hotel never goes after him but in reality the company is footing the bills. The guest is exploiting his own company.
If the company's credit card is stipulated only for the room charges and nothing else, the hotels will ask the guest to provide a credit card for incidentals. This is same as prepaying hotel nights with Priceline, where a separate credit card is needed for incidentals at check-in time.
It may be a regional thing. Many (I'd say most, but I don't know the actual percentage) hotels in North America require a credit card, even if you're paying by cash. They will just charge the card after you leave.
That doesn't apply over here (see the less carefully crafted version of your statement/the sibling comment).
That said: What happens if you _have_ a credit card that backs the room, but not the rest of the expenses? I usually travel with a CC (from my employer) backing the room. I never pay my room myself. That said, the hotel isn't allowed to charge minibar/massage/champagne at 3am by room service on the company card - and has no reliable information about me [1].
1: Yes, obviously it's rather dumb to run off with a TV if my company reserved the room or something. But again, as stated elsewhere in this thread: I've seen a number of people getting away with minibar-theft, very easily.
Replying here, since HN likes me to calm down or something and hides the direct reply link.
First of all: Thanks a lot for taking me somewhat serious. :)
This is enforced by the letter of my company that states "Our Employee is staying in your hotel. We will cover his room, breakfast, wifi, parking. Please charge the following CC". Everything else is my business. If I eat at the hotel's restaurant I can charge that to my room. When I check out, I have to pay up for the things that aren't cleared for the CC - i.e. still open.
Even if I steal from the hotel and run off with the couch in this room: The company specifically offered their CC for a number of services, paying for me stealing furniture isn't part of that agreement. If I break something they cannot charge the company CC (but at a certain amount will certainly ask my company, which is on file and well-known, to relay a bill to me).
Just having a CC number is not enough to charge it with random things.
Just for reference: In the US, the hotel wants a credit card on file for "incidentals". When you check out, you can tell the hotel how you're going to pay for each bit, and put the porn/minibar/massage on your own CC. But if you skip out, it goes on the card on file. (Is it possible to check into a hotel without a CC on file? You may have to put down a cash deposit or something, I don't know, I've never tried it.)
The hotels would not be interested in enforcing company policy so if you brought them a letter they would probably laugh at you. And your company enforces their "no porn/minibar/massage" policy by auditing the bill--if it's more than they expected, you could be asked for the itemized receipt.
Also, the system seems pretty hackable--forging a letter from a company that says "we will cover everything" seems easy. Of course the company could always audit the bills but once they're doing that why even bother with the letter?
> Just having a CC number is not enough to charge it with random things.
Replying again as a sibling, because it's 1:30 am and .. I don't care about waiting 10-15min for the reply button. ;-)
Thanks a lot for the clarification. As I said: I didn't have a CC for most of my life and had to trouble to check into a hotel. Sometimes a cash deposit was indeed required, but that was unusual (and mostly in seedy/grimey/ugly kind of places).
I think a big misunderstanding is the 'company CC' here. There's just one. For the company. Not one for me, for the company. My company has a _single_ CC covering travel expenses (and god knows what). So someone (travel agency, customer, me, who ever) is booking a hotel. My company sends a polite letter to the hotel, stating that it would cover my stay (see above, limitations etc) and offers the CC details or - still quite often the case - asks even to receive the bill by mail.
The hotel has no CC that I gave it, ever. Not mine, not a CC that the company gave me (I .. don't have something like that, doubt that it exists in this company outside of maybe some people in the higher sales ranks and .. well .. maybe the US? No clue). The name on the CC used for these things is actually my CEO, last time I checked.
Hackable: Well, the whole thread is about abuse, but I think you're caught up in that misunderstanding: I'm not providing a CC and forge a letter that says 'Yeah, but please just charge the room'. I'd have to forge a letter that says 'Please charge the room to the following CC'..
That said.. Again: Often enough we ask for a bill. In that case we tell the hotel: "Please send the bill for the stay (room/breakfast...) to company name, street, city". Is that hackable? Probably. It's a protocol that wasn't designed to protect against abuse. Just as I am able to send you emails from president@whitehouse.gov as long as I'm able to find an open smtp relay. That doesn't mean that everyone or even a significant number of people does it..
In Australia they will charge anything unpaid that you use (minibar, room service, etc.) to the credit card you gave.
Often what happens here with corporate credit cards is that you have different cards for different people, even if they are coming out of the same account, and you can see all the transactions that each person made. So the company would ask questions when they see the extra charge.
The hotels will actually keep the card you paid with on file and charge you for the mini bar in a second transaction. I've had it happen quite a bit when I've used the mini bar but the items from the last night hadn't been accounted for in the bill as the cleaners will restock and note down what was taken from the mini bar each day.
Explained in sibling comments: Room, breakfast, wifi and parking is payed by the company. Minibar and everything else there is: Nope.
I go down to the reception, they look at the bill, ask me if I consumed something from the minibar ("Never!") and wave goodbye.
They are not authorized to charge the company card for drinks or whatnot. They _could_ try to localize me based on the information I provided or .. I don't know - sue me across countries or something.
Disclaimer: I buy cheap drinks (including non-alcoholic beverages) in shops outside of the hotels I stay in. I hate the concept of minibars except as a fridge for MY stuff (those vending machine style of minibars really annoy the hell out of me). But I still insist that here/around me this exploit would work just as fine as the (to get back to the subject of the thread) exploit of the cafe that started this thread. It's not difficult. There are little to no repercussions. You will most likely get away with it. And most people still won't do it.
Are you serious? Can you reread your question and not feel like a jerk?
I'm 34 and didn't even HAVE a credit card ~3 years ago. I still rarely use it. The world is so diverse and different...
A hotel that asks for my credit card in Europe has to live with the chance that I don't have one, period. Which isn't the case anymore (see above), but I _still_ don't leave a credit card, ever.
On top of that: For the minibar issue that _still_ makes no difference at all. Most of the exploits I've seen were connected to company trips. The room was payed by the company, backed by a credit card. The minibar .. wasn't.
I'm currently in a decent hotel in Bern (my favorite, tried probably "all there are" in this city over some years). They don't have my credit card.
I don't feel like a jerk, actually, for asking a reasonable question (especially since you indicate in other replies that the room is backed by a company credit card). Do you feel like a jerk for either your snarky responses or your complicity in small-time theft (unless you called out those who did abuse the minibar and not pay)?
If novotel isn't charging the company credit card for all incidentals after-the-fact, then yes, I think they're doing business foolishly in that regard. And it's hardly news that being dishonest can get you free things - so can shoplifting from the grocery, why not simplify your life and just do that if you want free cashews so badly?
=> egocentric world view. Ignoring the somewhat interesting discussion about what you consider the 'modern first world' this statement makes you a jerk. You replied to a post that said that I'm currently _in_ a hotel in Bern, CH. 'modern first world'?
- snarky responses: Except for the one to your post I don't think I wrote one today. I consider that one deserved.
- complicity: Granted. Good point. You are right and I certainly could (should?) have acted a number of times. Yes, that makes me a jerk as well, I guess.
- The hotel business: I .. don't believe you're qualified to judge the business, quite frankly. But neither am I.
What really makes me turn green and quite angry: You totally missed the whole point of this thread. You're so far off, it is not even funny. The article that this comment thread is connected to is about a very interesting and charming idea, about a cafe that charges you for time and nothing else. Someone posted a rather bland 'So what if I abuse that' comment and I said 'Well - that is totally not clever and you can already do that like .. everywhere.' and provided a couple of examples. Staying in a hotel tonight, for the rest of the week, I chose the examples that were closest to me at that time. Yes, the thread then began to focus a little bit too much on my examples, but your statement here ("And it's hardly news that being dishonest can get you free things - so can shoplifting from the grocery, why not simplify your life and just do that if you want free cashews so badly?") shows that you were totally unable to read before you commented. Your statement is - frankly - stupid.
Cafe in London charges for time. I like that.
Someone says 'I can break it!'. I say 'Amazing, it is hardly news that being dishonest...' - oh wait, I didn't. I stated the very same thing, but didn't use your words and it wasn't a grocery it was a hotel.. But cool, you just stated what I posted directly below the top-level post while indirectly accusing me to take advantage of dishonest behavior at the same time ('if you want free cashews so badly'). I'd really, really suggest to start at the top again and read more carefully the next time.
And I'm allergic to cashews, you insensitive clod. :)
> A good number of hotels don't check your ID/your personal information.
Please do tell me where I can find (in the first world countries) a hotel that doesn't a) check your ID/personal information, and b) lets you pay by cash?
I'm surprised to find out that it's first of it's kind in London. In Moscow these place became quite common in the recent years; it's a great place to chat with friends, or gather big companies. They usually have a selection of available board games and other company-oriented entertainment.
sounds brilliant. I always feel guilty/uncomfortable sitting too long, but with this kind of place you never feel guilty.
1.80 per hour and includes everything (coffee?) sounds like a bargain in London standards. That won't buy you a cup of coffee in most other places as far as I remember, let alone fruit, vegetables, biscuits etc... Even cheaper than co-working spaces(?), especially for casual use.
Clearly the idea has worked in Russia, but I find it hard to see how charging a flat rate can be financially viable. The pricing seems like such a fine line to make it cheap enough for its intended usage (people hanging around and such) but expensive enough to cover the food. As other commenters pointed out already, you could walk in, take a bunch of food and expensive coffee and leave.
I think one way of attacking this problem would be similar to taxi-cab pricing (X for the first mile and Y (where Y<<X) for every subseqeunt one. Essentially adding a flat fee of a few bucks just for walking in, then charging a small amount per minute to hang around.
They don't offer food (bring your own) just cookies, and you won't realistically chew too many cookies. They also have coffee from coffee machine. The whole idea is to make it feel like home (that many people in the city lack while renting something ugly) - assorted old furniture and a good company.
Workshop Cafe in SF does it by the hour, seems to work pretty well. You get 10 hours free to start, it's worth your time to stop by for those hours at least.
Workshop Cafe is one of my favorite places to work in SF. You don't feel like a cafe squatter since you pay for your seat, and its always nice working around like-minded individuals. Plus there are so many outlets... http://workshopcafe.com/
I just spent a few hours there. It was pretty much at capacity the whole time. Cool to see it succeeding such a short time after opening. Though for me personally I can't say the environment there's ever been particularly conducive to meeting any of the supposedly like-minded individuals staring at their screens next to you.
They've actually just started adding social features to the app. It's all opt-in, but if you want you can share who you are, what you're working on, and where you're sitting when you check in. You can tell it is really just their first step in encouraging that kind of thing. Such a great place to work.
Developer for Workshop Café here. The recently-released social features (Community Page) are definitely just the MVP. Would love to know what you think. We're going to see how people use it and add stuff we think is helpful. We've already noticed people putting their contact info and links to their personal pages, projects, etc. Hope it catches on!
Oh tight. I hadn't even noticed the feature, because I just use the app to check in and out. Would love to have more first-class 'desktop' web support, since once I'm sitting there already using my laptop I don't want to have to keep whipping out my phone to do things.
But it's totally awesome to have the capability to check out who's there. I hope it goes a long way toward fostering a community there and helping people make useful contacts.
You can currently use the app on your desktop browser using the same url (https://app.workshopcafe.com) and get the same feature set as you get on your phone (Except for things that require a phone like calling or texting in orders). No need to switch from your laptop!
Developer for Workshop Café here. Thanks for the mention!
If you or anyone else reading this stops by you'll probably see me on the Community Page (under the name "Newton") as I'm in the café often. You can see where I'm sitting so you can come introduce yourself!
There are probably more than 10 "anticafes" in Saint-Petersburg(as "Ziferblat" had great success after opening in early 2012). Some of them are profitable, AIK. Ziferblat is the good place for hanging out, but too noisy to work(many students playing table games around). If you want to work, better choices are "3rd place"("tretje mesto"), me4ta.tv(far away from center, but best choice probably if you're staying in northern districts of the city) or even IMarussia.
P.S. In Saint-Petersburg's Ziferblat, you can take coffee-to-go for free but donations are highly welcomed.
Considering this place is a cafe and runs only during day starting very early, it can run at 12 hrs day. Let's also take the normal accounting standard of 30days per month.
This gives us:
Monthly income: 1.73 x 12 x 30 x X
Where X is the avg hourly nr of people in the cafe'.
Say X is 15 --> Monthly revenue: Eur 9400
Considering 1 waiter at a cost of 4000, rent at a cost of 2000, utilities at a cost of 500, food/coffee at 1000, we have about EUR 2000 of profits for 1 cafe'. Excluding amortizations and other overhead I probably forgot to consider.
But I think 15 hourly is a bit optimistic, how big is this place?
I'm very fond of anticafes as an idea. We usually gather there to play board games or for birthday parties. AMA :)
You can drink tea and coffee with cookies or you can bring your own cake or you can order pizza/sushi delivery.
We've visited a Ziferblat/Ziferburg in SpB and it's amazing, they're sitting on the top floor of a historic building just opposite Gostinyy Dvor (and near the jealousy-inspiring VK office btw), they even have a piano there.
Coffee in other places is expensive precisely because the price is a stand-in for table-space and queuing rent. The cafe charges for the opportunity cost of someone peeking in seeing the line too long or the tables too full and running out. Same thing with corkage charges—wine-drinkers longer longer.
The person who runs into a place like this, grabs food and a latte, and runs out is not doin them economic harm.
The opposite concept can also work: free work space but no outside food or drink.
Next Door in Chicago offers a good work environment (tables, some cubicles and private rooms with excellent internet), and is completely free. Using it for work is encouraged. A cafe inside does very good business from the people who are otherwise there to work (no outside food or drink is allowed) . It's sponsored (by State Farm), so it's possible the cafe might not be able to support the space on it's own, but the fact that an environment where work is explicitly free brings substantial revenue for the cafe suggests that model might be viable.
The manga cafe is one of my favorite Japanese institutions, though the utility is lower now that I'm married. It's a no-notice dirt-cheap hotel (if you're amenable to sleeping in a recliner), a mid-day nap, an instant office-with-a-door, an instant wifi connection and (typically) open outlet, serviceable liquid refreshments, climate controlled like a business rather than Japanese houses (i.e. always tolerable, which is not a hard-and-fast requirement for Japanese apartments/houses), and virtually guaranteed to be tolerant of people at the margins of society [+].
[+] This can be useful if it is 2 AM and you're in a city you don't live in with a face that says "I am at the margins of Japanese society; nobody will fault your hotel if you refuse my business on the excuse that you are fully booked... on a Thursday... but could be unbooked if I were willing to have someone from my office call to vouch for me."
I live in Mykolayiv, small city in Ukraine and we have similar venue here called "Moloko" (milk in ukrainian). It's not snacks or tea/coffee that matters, it's community and events that happen there.
Owners actively encourage socialising, there are events almost every day and it hosts several clubs. In fact I just returned a few hours from Mafia club meeting there.
Also, they encourage to host your own events there, for free. I. e. they get paid from visitors and you get venue. You can also take higher price for your event if needed.
Seems like a fine line. At $3, you don't really expect more than a chair and some autoshop coffee. However once you cross that line where you're paying similar prices to a movie maybe $7 an hour you start to expect more.
And maybe include "how many pence to a pound"? My assumption is this is like pennies and the US dollar - 100 pennies to a dollar; therefore 100 pence to a pound?
If all you're looking for in the comparison is "somewhere to sit, a coffee machine, etc." then it matches many things. GP's point with the airport lounge comparison is that it matches not just in objects but in purpose / business model.
The interesting thing is the pricing model - at the airline club, you prepay for it by either paying per session (very expensive), having a club membership through some means, or else it's baked into the price of a first-class ticket.
In the per-minute case, I'm trying to think of how usage patterns would vary from those of an airline club. It would be interesting to compare to other models as well, such as a co-working space that offers free coffee and treats.
While there are comments that mention getting drinks to go, I think 1.80 pounds are extremely cheap for spending time at a place, drinks and snacks included. I'd go.
> It's funny to see people queueing here to wash their dishes. It's not obligatory, but it's appreciated. They even wash each other's dishes. It's very social.
I don't understand why pay-per-minute would lead to this. Doesn't that mean people are paying to wash other peoples' dishes?
You forget the English stereotype where everyone is always so nice! More seriously, if they're making the place "feel like home" (limited snack options, coffee-machine dreg rather than barista-prepared fluff, etc), then I suspect it's a feeling of community: let's keep the place nice and clean not just for the owners of the building, but also for us, the ones who 'live' here.
Kiev's Ziferblat is a really amazing place: it became a real centre for the city's creative youth with a good selection of free international press (doesn't happen much in Ukraine), nice workshops, movie nights and other stuff. Let's see if Londoners can be as open as Ukrainians.
Interesting. Moscow has had these for quite a while.
From the owner side, it seems like the way to keep people from buying the cheapest thing and occupying a table.
From the consumption side, is seems like another way to squeeze more money out of people and give another reason to exclude people on basis of economics.
Genius idea! Long thought that about a space you could turn up, surf the web, chill out. If they have set this up as they describe could feel move like your home away from home. Surf the web, grab a drink, make some new friends etc. Going to check it out soon!
Of course, it would be easy to create an environment that deterred laptop users if that's not compatible with what they're hoping to achieve.