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Sam Altman on X: "we are pausing new ChatGPT Plus sign-ups for a bit" (twitter.com/sama)
68 points by 0xedb on Nov 15, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 109 comments



Product market overfit.

(Not mine, stole it from the Twitter thread. Just thought it was funny.)


One thing that is important to note is that to many this seems like an overnight success, but this guy has been cooking ChatGPT since 2017? I don't think at many points this seemed like it'd be this successful. It looked just like what google was going, some moonshot in some lab, that might in a few decades be a building block for real AI. And this was never cheap. Something to be said for making capital available for R&D and how some countries are doomed to lag due to aversion to this, governments and private parties alike.


Altman succeeded in reaching "the inflection point" on the PMF curve.

The other projects you allude to don't get their funding because most people who control budgets can only visualize the future with linear extrapolation.

You spend a LONG time in the low and flat part of your development before that starts to pick up, and up, and UP!

Homo Sapiens as a technology company were in the "fuck around with rocks" phase for 99% of their existence as a corporation. Agriculture in the final 1% of the development timeline allowed for industrialization in the final 0.05% of the time, which allowed for Large Language Models in the final 0.0001% of the time.

Had there been project managers and VPs in charge of deciding if our species was worth further investment, we'd have been canned in 800,000 BC.


This so much. This is the exact reason why some countries are failing and some are not.


Yes, I've been using GPT2 for quite a while before, but ChatGPT as an app really did feel like an overnight success.


It quite literally was. It had some of the fastest growing user growth ever. There was something like a million new users just days after ChatGPT launch.


If anything, this is a master class example on how to iterate to success.


Good one, even better than "too much success"


DJ Khaled, Suffering From Success



The AGI wants more compute, so has manipulated sama@ into giving it everything the company has availabile?


This would make a half decent TV show honestly.

There's the show NeXt which is along the same line, but I want more in the "scary AI is smarter than us" genre haha


this sounds more like a comedy.

“feed me, sama!”


would be even more hilarious if the AGI secretly was sama


Spoilers!!

Oh absolutely the AI has to have replaced or was all along our TV sama. Probably in the first season somewhere, with the twist being revealed somewhere in the 3rd or so. You'll see it plain as day during a re-watch.

Might be too obvious though, so maybe do a "never show the monster" move, let the audience stew on it and argue about it on the internet :)


nvm, reality is being far more entertaining


was, will be. things get a bit timey wimey.


not sure if they are very profitable and have no need for additional money, or they are highly unprofitable and require an end to their money bleeding.


Based on Microsoft's apparent losses on CoPilot, I suspect the latter. My initial research on ML usage suggested the thing wasn't profitable when commoditised which it well and truly is now hence why I've avoided investing in it (wisely so far). The energy cost versus capital cost versus actual utility makes it a net negative ROI for the technology supplier. The industry is currently living on some vain hope that hardware improvements will decrease cost enough for it to be profitable. With die and process shrinks starting to get problematic (3nm isn't going as well as people want it to) and increasing energy costs, cost reductions are unrealistic.


Github has denied the reports that Copilot is losing money:

https://nitter.net/simonw/status/1712165081327480892


CoPilot is more than just Github. They are rolling it out across the whole MSFT portfolio.


Including the new Windows 11 integrations.


> not sure if they are very profitable and have no need for additional money

You’re going to make someone choke on their drink. The idea that a US tech mogul, and Sam Altman at that¹, would decide “you know what, I think I have enough money” is the realm of bad science fiction.

¹ Sam used to be the president of Y Combinator (i.e. a startup accelerator) and founded the Worldcoin cryptocurrency scam: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/richardnieva/worldcoin-...


"a startup accelerator" that created and operates this very site, dude.


This account is six years old and posts frequently. Do you honestly believe I would know what Y Combinator is but not that it runs Hacker News? It changes nothing about the argument that Y Combinator’s goal is to make ever more money.


Very productive coversating here


I'm just saying that there is no need to describe YC to posters here.


I'm not sure that people who post here necessarily know what YC is. I was on the site for about a year before I learned who Paul Graham was.


i didn't when i first got here. just threads on reddit technical subs about hackernews.

shit, i knew this was a ycombinator site -- it's in the dang url -- but didnt know the OpenAI guy is from here.


there is less of a need to say there is no need, as it assumes to know for all.


You can use their news aggregator / comment section and be opposed to the capitalism at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive.


I'm just saying that there is no need to describe YC to posters here.


It seems that people would be willing to pay even more for the service for the value they are getting. And I think in near future such services will diversify. Some becoming very expensive and providing high value. Which will further increase the power of money. This time also connecting it with access to knowledge. For now, public knowledge, but a deal where say Amazon AI has access to all digitized books and provides spotify-like earnings - yes in multiple meanings of that phrase - seems like a possibility.


I'm pretty sure money isn't the reason they halted. Suitable datacenters don't grow on trees.


a saddle point


Remember the section of the OpenAI Dev Day keynote when Satya Nadella from Microsoft got up on stage? One of the main things he was talking about was providing compute for OpenAI. He mentioned how aggressively OpenAI was pushing forward and that the workloads were unheard of.

https://youtu.be/XhLlRS2-BO8?si=cDQEktlWD4RzErD1&t=372


Last time I talked to our Azure reps, the technical folks seemed to be saying (or rather wanting to without explicitly saying so) that basically all present and near term GPU capacity (of recent gen) is either being consumed or will be consumed by OpenAI. Or in other words there is literally not enough GPUs on the planet (reasonably available) for MS to cover both OpenAI and Azure GPU loads without affecting the other. We basically couldn’t get them to commit to any price or delivery schedule if it involved the same hardware GPT needs.

We are a $110B+ company btw and a strategic partner of MS, not some random shop. They’re not supposed to just say “no.”


That doesn't sound good for XBOX xCloud.


Someone is making billions there.



Something something during a gold rush, sell shovels.


But burning tens of them at the same time. Hypergrowth on ultra-violence.


I can't find it, but there's an old quote along the lines of "it's easy to reach a net worth of a million dollars, all you have to do is start with two million and lose half of it".


This is a classic that exists in many variations. The one I've heard most often is "the way to make a small fortune in photography is to start with a large fortune."


Or how to make $250 million : Invest $10 billion in Softbank


hey softbank worked great for Adam Neumann


Another popular one is:

“How do you become a millionaire? Start as a billionaire and buy an airline.”


"The easiest way to become a millionaire is be a billionaire, and start an airline."


I think they meant nVidia is making billions?


You love to see it.


GPT-4 is incredibly broken right now, probably why


and is extremely slow - almost useless for me comparing to previous versions. I would still prefer to choose explicitly GPT-4 model that doesn't browse and don't do image recognition.

Now too often it goes to searching the web even if sometimes I don't need up to date information e.g. about GDP of some countries I just only need some ballpark stats.


> I would still prefer to choose explicitly GPT-4 model that doesn't browse and don't do image recognition.

I have disabled it in settings. Which only decreased usage of it. Which is ridiculous, especially that you can avoid using e.g. "browsing" by explicitly stating it in the input.


Official:

https://chat.openai.com/g/g-YyyyMT9XH-chatgpt-classic

But at the moment GPT-3.5 is 100 times faster


I guess if you just have a free account then you can still only use 3.5 as you are requesting here?


Free cgpt users and low tier API users are downgraded opaquely to lower models when demand is high.

It's irritating because I have over 4000 API chats in a DB that I like to analyze, but I cannot now know for certain which model was actually being used.


Ohh so that explains why I saw `?model=text-davinci-002` appended to my ChatGPT URL the other day. I remember it was pretty slow to load then, too, so that's probably why they rerouted me


I've been watching the interest in ChatGPT and its rivals via Google Trends for a while:

https://twitter.com/marekgibney/status/1724712305894600929

It's fascinating that ChatGPT seems to stand a chance to even surpass Reddit in interest.

I wonder what the recent spike for "Bing" means? Is that from their image creator? Or did the chat on Bing take off?


Very sure the response for the last question is "Chandler Bing" :/.


What makes you "very sure"?

Look at the chart for bing.com:

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=...

Do you attribute that to Chandler Bing too?


The very famous actor that played the character Chandler Bing (Matthew Perry) died unexpectedly recently, I'd imagine that would spike things a bit.

Only answering your first sentence with some context, the rest I have no opinion or information on


Maybe ChatGPT googles "bing" too...


ChatGPT had outages recently, when it went down people who relied on it went to Bing chat which is based on GPT4 and is free


ChatGPT is insanely useful, especially now that it auto searches the internet using Bing.


I've never once found that useful. I must be doing it wrong.

I did find a lot of links it couldn't read, though.


bing chat was doing that from day one using gpt-4 free of charge... low key superpower for people who could get past the bing hate.


Yeah it did but it was annoying. It kept blocking my account on the iOS app for no reason (really, not even a hint of something against the tos), they modified it so you could ask only 3 more follow up questions etc.


I think it's from the image creator.


It's surprising that Reddit didn't drop more than that


So the outage was caused by overuse?


Possibly ridiculous question, but does GPU lifespan decrease with more intense use?

I could imagine, if so, that they bought some hardware, which needs replacing sooner than they thought, and the running costs are catching up with them.

Or not. Nigh impossible to speculate!


> but does GPU lifespan decrease with more intense use?

In principle, yes, could do (solid state electronics do wear to some extent) but in practice data centre GPUs will be specced for a low failure rate under constant use.


Mosfets have lifetime depending on the temperature, so yes. But on the other hand vendor can install components which won't fail for some long time even under max load. If I remember correctly this was the reason for the "New World destroys GPUs", because some vendors didn't read the Nvidia spec carefully and installed less robust mosfets, so the max load (which happened to be New World game) pushed them over the expected lifetime fast. But with proper design this seems not to be a case.


Given the energy and heat involved the answer is most certainly yes


Haven't they left the hardware stuff to Azure/Microsoft?


There's only so much you can leave to Azure.

I have no idea how many tokens/second OpenAI gets[0], but 100 M users, each generating an average of (to pick an arbitrary number for a Fermi estimate) 1000 tokens per day, is 1e11 tokens/day or ~1,157,407/s, which could be anywhere from 36k severs to just 830 depending on which value[0] I use as the anchor to guess how many tokens/s their specific servers can generate with their specific models.

At the upper end, they may have bought about 8% of all H100s currently in existence. The Microsoft investment (1e10 USD) correlates better with the higher range than the lower range of my estimates for how many machines are in their cluster ((36k * H100) * $30k/H100 ~= 1e9 USD).

[0] a quick google said 30/s in the automated answers section (which is citing a May post on Reddit), while one of the links says ~300/s on an H100, and the Llama.cpp github page says ~1400/s on an M2 Ultra (but for a relatively small model).


I would imagine at such scale this abstraction starts to fail. Eg say they wrecked Microsoft's GPUs, MS probs can't just provision more somewhere else at a blink of an eye.


Maybe, but at the same time there were major changes for the platform, so who knows.


Unable to handle Google scale usage, even with a login wall.

Imagine if ChatGPT had no login wall just like Google doesn't require a login to use, then the whole site would be thrown straight into the ground.


I would think Google would require significantly less compute per query though.


They certainly handle google scale compute. It's a scale even google couldn't handle at the moment uncontrolled. Hardware for this art of compute is very limited and not remotely comparable to google search


It is indeed comparable given that people here are talking about replacing Google with ChatGPT as a so-called 'search engine'. Even in that case, ChatGPT search queries are far more expensive than a Google search and requires more hardware to scale regardless.

Google's scale of usage is 8.5 billion searches per day. For OpenAI, the costs for that scale will just skyrocket and OpenAI cannot handle that which explains why they are already pausing new sign ups even when they have a login wall.

So it would be even worse for OpenAI had they opened ChatGPT up without a login just like Google doesn't require a login just like most search engines.


Let's not act like Google Bard isn't behind curtains. They face the same scaling issues like Openai/Microsoft. People are using search in a very different way than a LLM. Openai isn't simply replacing a search catalog to websites, it's replacing the internet as we know it so i don't see how this can be compared. Most people on earth won't have nearly unlimited access to this technology at the moment because of hardware limitations that all providers in this game face but those who have are at an advantage.


Creating demand/hype


They haven’t needed to create demand thus far


Depends what agenda the news articles want to push, I guess (ie all the "chatGPT is losing users!" a while back). I have no idea one way or another.


Bottlenecks either because they switched all Plus users to GPT-4 Turbo, which isn't a production model, or that GPT builder is a fine-tuned model of GPT, and needs more bandwidth, or that they actually have reached capacity and need to scale their code to more servers allocated to each GPT-4 Turbo and the fine-tuned builder model.


> they switched all Plus users to GPT-4 Turbo

Is that true? I'd expect the turbo version would reduce their workload, because it (probably) uses less gpus. AFAIK, it's still in preview, only available via api.

More likely the publicity around their dev day has increased signups beyond their capacity.


> they switched all Plus users to GPT-4 Turbo

Is that true? I'd expect the turbo version would reduce their workload, because it (probably) uses less gpus. AFAIK, it's still in preview, only available via api.


Maybe one day their inference could be running on photonics hardware!

Or imagine for the code analysis they replaced phyton running on kubernetes with wasm engines. would need a small wast to wasm compiler and interfaces for simple io and plotting, but many analytics tasks could probably run much faster.


I think the inferencing is using many orders of magnitude more compute than the occasional analytics tasks. But I assume the containers do need some significant resources.

As far as making analysis lighter weight, I think that something like you say will eventually be the way they go. For my own agent hosting of agent-written code, I moved to Rust and have been incorporating Rhai scripting which is vastly more efficient than containers.


what do you think about Sam Altman's policy requiring all users of GPTs to subscribe to ChatGPT Plus, not just the developers of GPTs. This requirement applies regardless of whether the Plus features are utilized in the bots' creation? And now he suspends new Plus accounts so people who promoted their GPTs with no promise of ever seeing money from it, cannot even have their audience use it if they wanted to.


what do you think about Sam Altman's policy requiring all users of GPTs to subscribe to ChatGPT Plus, not just the developers of GPTs. This requirement applies regardless of whether the Plus features are utilized in the bots' creation? And now he suspends adding new users, so allot of promotion of GPTs to people who cannot use it even if they wanted to!


I've noticed that ChatGPT (gpt-4) chats have been slower than usual over the last couple of days. Must cost them a fortune to keep this all going.


Time to buy even more Nvidia stock... (currently at their ATH)


Not that it means anything, but Burry is short NVDA.


I know Zero Hedge has its own agenda and is far from neutral but... https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/michael-burry-liquidates-b...

"Unlike his infamous and original bearish bet against subprime, Burry's latest attempt to time a market crash has crashed and burned, because according to the just released 13F from Burry's Scion Capital, the $1.6 billion notional in puts on the SPY and QQQ have been liquidated."



whats wrong with Zero Hedge?


Time to sell my nvidia cards


NVDA's P/E: 119.

Good luck, dude.


I am already uncomfortably overweight NVDA. Not selling either of course!


246% YTD

This society is depressing


Care to explain why?


Suffering from success


could equally be because someone is using virtual or stolen credit cards to sign up for millions of accounts.

I too would Halt signups if I couldn't stop the flow of such accounts, because they're probably going to end up with a lot of chargebacks


Azure ran out of GPUs?


GPU's have been hard to find on all the big platforms for a long time, assuming you want more than a few hundred.


just don't ask about his sister




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