I was getting funny looks from taxi drivers and waitresses, all of whom were disappointed that another primitive foreigner was forcing them to use cash.
I simply don't like the thought that if I forget my phone, get my phone taken from me, drop my phone and it breaks, or run out of battery that I'll be stranded somewhere and unable to buy food, check in to a hotel, or even get home.
Societies should move toward more payment methods, not fewer. Redundancy is important, especially with something as essential as currency. Look at the recent CenturyLink outage which reduced non-cash sales at stores that relied on it for credit card transactions to zero.
A good point. I made sure to have a power pack (i.e., big, external charging battery) with me — not so that I could talk on the phone, but so that I could pay for things and/or call a taxi with DiDi. Without a charge on my phone, I'd effectively be penniless and stranded.
At least in China, they might be moving toward multiple and parallel services (i.e., WeChat and AliPay), but they're all based on phones. Which means that if you lose your phone, or if it breaks, you're really in trouble.
Eventually, you'll be able to pay with your face and won't even need your phone in some places [1]. I wonder if they're taking and storing stereoscopic photos of my face when I go thru customs...
Happened to me. Lost my phone. Bought a cheap Huawei for temporary usage and got a replacement SIM card same day, was up and running really fast. Eventually replaced with a second hand iPhone 5C. I don't think the risk exposure from phone loss or breakage is high.
But the problem in a phone-only payment world is when you lose your phone, how do you buy the cheap temporary replacement? You literally have nothing to pay for it with.
Well, first, it'd probably be a phone-primary payment world, not a phone-only payment world. The traditional bank infrastructure would probably still exist.
But even if not, and it was truly a phone-only payment world, I can't believe that they wouldn't have some kind of backup process available.
And even if no backup process were available, the first friend I could bump into or email could help me buy a cheap phone, and then I'd pay them back after I'm up and running again.
I see no scenarios where my risk exposure is significant in a phone loss or breakage scenario.
Well, first, it'd probably be a phone-primary payment world, not a phone-only payment world
That's just moving the goalposts. The whole point of the original post was that moving to a phone-only payment world is a bad thing, and that's what is happening in some places (China is only one).
I see no scenarios where my risk exposure is significant in a phone loss or breakage scenario.
Then I submit that you lack imagination.
Here's a scenario: You're in a country you've never been before. You took an Uber to a restaurant recommended by the hotel concierge. Food was great. You pay with your phone, then leave.
In the street as you try to text your wife a picture of the awesome food, a passerby bumps into you and your phone goes through a sewer grate.
You now have no phone. You can't summon another Uber because you don't have access to the app. You can't call a cab because you can't pay for it. You can't take transit because your transit pass was on the phone. You can't walk back to the hotel, because your map is an app. You can't talk to the locals because your translation dictionary is an app. You're screwed.
That sounds a lot like losing your wallet or dropping it in the sewer. Except that losing your wallet is a lot worse. In the situation you described, I'd just borrow the driver's phone to login on WeChat and pay.
Many tourists keep backup cash and travel documents in a waist-pack just for that contingency.
To expand on the original scenario, last year my primary phone was soaked in freak torrential rain and shut-off. Thankfully I had loaded all my travel docs, password safe and maps to a backup tablet and I was able to call into a service station and arrange my affairs over their wifi. It took two days for my phone to dry out.
Always, always take a backup when away from home.
> I'd just borrow the driver's phone to login on WeChat and pay
You'd know your password from memory? You'd trust his phone? Would you use banking apps on his phone too?
>That sounds a lot like losing your wallet or dropping it in the sewer
You have your phone out all the time. The risk of losing/breaking it is significantly higher than your wallet which sits your pocket 99.9% of the time.
Funny aside: I've seen a lot of anecdotes on HN and from friends that having a smartwatch negates the need for your phone to be out all the time. New technologies create new problems that create new technological solutions all the time, I guess.
I suppose at some point all this might be moot in the long term because people will have succumbed to having chips implanted in their skin or brain, and we won't even really need phones anymore. /a little bit of s
Well at that point I'm guessing you buy a few $25 backup phones that you leave turned off in your bag. Also in that cash free society, which will probably not have phone numbers anymore, adding a few more phones that you never use will probably be free or $1/month.
Or maybe cell phone networks will turn into something equivalent to wifi, that you could pick and choose from a software menu.
As noted above, you don't speak the language and both your foreign translation app and dictionary are in your now gone phone.
then keep the meter running until you get a new phone
That was funny. Thanks for that one.
If you're that totally helpless in a foreign country without your phone, you probably should go with a friend or local.
It's not the person who is helpless. It's being forced to rely on a single point of failure (the phone) that makes people helpless.
Also, there are literally millions solo travelers in the world. Telling someone they cannot travel unaccompanied makes no sense. The whole point of the map apps, the translation apps, the recommendation apps, etc... is to allow people to accomplish things without others.
Sorry, do you travel? At the end of the day, the phone isn't a single point of failure because the fail safe is just talking to people (I.e, the single point of failure is you, the traveler)
Your scenario is contrived. Imagine a mystical time before phones - maybe it was your pocket translation dictionary that fell down the grate? You're out of luck in much the same way - unless you just go back inside and talk to the restaurant and have them send a cab, or call the hotel, or find someone on the street to help you out.
Yes. 27 countries so far. And I traveled to the ends of the earth in a time before cell phones even existed.
Imagine a mystical time before phones - maybe it was your pocket translation dictionary that fell down the grate? You're out of luck in much the same way - unless you just go back inside and talk to the restaurant and have them send a cab, or call the hotel, or find someone on the street to help you out.
If my pocket translator fell down the grate, I'd still be able to hail a cab, point to a location on my paper map, and pay with cash. I've done it in Thailand, Japan, and Turkey. Probably other places I don't remember.
The point made repeatedly upstream is that the phone is a single point of failure, and eliminating the cash option in favor of a smartphone is a seriously bad idea.
You're ignoring the question. It's not about ability, it's about failure mode.
I like keys / phone / wallet because you can lose 2/3 of those things and still be fine in you home city.
Lose your phone/wallet? Call a cab, go home, get a backup CC or cash.
Lose your keys/phone? You can buy/borrow a phone / call a locksmith. Worst case you can book a hotel with your wallet.
Etc.
Phone only..... you lose it, what do you do? Keyless locks with codes do offer part of a solution here.
Maybe the right answer in the future will just be to have two phones. Probably a fancy primary and a cheap backup.
What use is going to a phone store when you don't have any means of paying for a phone? Further, in many countries you can't buy a sim card without ID so if your ID was stored on your phone, you're screwed there too.
> I hope you're carrying your passport in a foreign country.
One should absolutely not do this. You'll be royally screwed if you lose your passport. Leave it in your hotel room, with just a photo of it on your phone.
logging into your wechat account on a new phone is not that easy. it asks you for verification by sending an sms to your old number, and there was also something about needing to contact old wechat friends to have them verify you. (i don't remember the details of how that worked and why it was necessary)
Luckily, you can rent battery backs for your cell phone everywhere in major cities in China (my experience was in Shanghai). I loved using my phone for everything and it was a little unsettling leaving the apartment only with my papers and a phone.
it has been recently asserted that not accepting cash in china is a violation of the law. so for the time being, you can't be forced to use online payments.
i use it only for buying things off the internet or for the rare occasions where i don't have enough cash on me.
i also have a separate bank account only for online payments to limit the damage should the online payment system be somehow exploited.
I simply don't like the thought that if I forget my cash, get my cash taken from me, drop my cash by mistake, or run out of cash that I'll be stranded somewhere and unable to buy food, check in to a hotel, or even get home.
Sounds similar?
> Societies should move toward more payment methods, not fewer. Redundancy is important
Totally agree. In some stores in China, you can spend money by face recognition.
For an official guide on how to activate WeChat Pay without a China mobile number, what payment sources (primarily debit or credit cards issued by a mainland Chinese bank) are accepted, and what identity documents are accepted (including non-Chinese passports), you can go to WeChat's official Help Center site in English here:
Perhaps, but the official docs (following your link) explicitly says: "At the current time, "Wallet" is only available to users registered in mainland China, Hong Kong, South Africa and Malaysia."
In other words, the official line is that I shouldn't be able to use WeChat payments.
The whole point of my blog post is that this official line is wrong.
It's still kind of true since you basically need to either find a friend you trust to launder money for you, or use some sketchy online service with high fees to launder the money for you.
Given that the Chinese government actively promotes tourism, the number of hoops a foreigner has to jump through to pay for things where cash isn't accepted is quite ridiculous.
> Given that the Chinese government actively promotes tourism, the number of hoops a foreigner has to jump through to pay for things where cash isn't accepted is quite ridiculous.
Setting up WeChat pay is a pretty minor problem as far as tourism is concerned. Aside from the fact that almost everyone does take cash (at least 3 months ago in Shanghai), it's only difficult if you don't know someone with RMB willing to do currency exchange.
The big problems all tourists face are directly due to government policies:
* Painful to get initial entry visa, especially if you don't live near a consulate.
* Setting up a VPN so you can even access basic services like your email.
Many countries (Uk anyway) can get 6 days transit without a visa if you head to a 3rd country. I flew to Beijing on short notice a couple of months ago, got a flight Glasgow-London-Beijing (5 days) - seoul - London
There are limitations (no leaving city of arrival), but it’s a useful last minute thing. You could do a tourist visit to Beijing, Hong Kong, Shanghai, and back home without a visa.
For VPN, speedify worked well.
I did pay cash in one place (near the diplomatic sector of Beijing), but got such a funny look I didn’t try again. Hotel took Amex.
Businesses can accept foreigner credit cards. But why would they, when foreigners are a tiny proportion of the population, and taking such cards probably costs them a fortune?
Someone just told me that the Shanghai hotel I stayed in for several days last week costs foreigners double the Chinese rate. Undoubtedly, part of that rate includes various taxes, and takes the payment margin into account.
Businesses can accept foreigner credit cards. But why would they, when foreigners are a tiny proportion of the population, and taking such cards probably costs them a fortune?
This is true for every other country in the world, yet somehow it's done. China is the exception.
Someone just told me that the Shanghai hotel I stayed in for several days last week costs foreigners double the Chinese rate. Undoubtedly, part of that rate includes various taxes, and takes the payment margin into account.
No, that's just a thing that happens. It's not unique to China, or even this point in time. I've been to lots of places in the world where I've gotten the "tourist" menu at a restaurant, which has higher prices.
I totally accept your point about tourist vs. local prices.
But when it comes to credit cards, China is truly different: They don't have Visa or MasterCard (or AmEx) in the country. They do have Union Pay, which is a special, China-only credit card.
So businesses do often take credit cards. They just don't take non-Chinese credit cards.
In this sense, they are different from other countries I've visited.
They do have Union Pay, which is a special, China-only credit card.
Not China-only. Union Pay is widely accepted in the United States, and probably every other country. Even small gas stations in the middle of nowhere take Union Pay.
I was SOL a couple of times visiting India and Netherlands, which I scarily found did not take UnionPay cards period! Always bring plenty of backup cash (USD, not RMB) and a credit card or two, especially if you are using Chinese ATM cards.
India kind of makes sense, but the Netherlands? Seriously? I hope things are different now.
Many places in NL only accept Maestro and Visa Electron cards (pin payment cards, as they call them), and won't take any other regular major debit/credit cards. Including UnionPay.
Well, to be pedantic, they do have Visa and Mastercard credit cards. Otherwise, it'd be really hard for their citizens to experience the world as tourists. But due to capital outflow restrictions, these credit cards are a bit limited.
UnionPay is more like Access or Plus or Maestro (atm networks) than VISA or MasterCard. UnionPay is pretty ubiquitous at bigger shops in China, but not at the small mom/pop store selling veggies downstairs.
Visa and MasterCard operate in China. Before 2016, dual branded visa/MC/Amex/UnionPay cards were pretty common (I had a couple). Then the government made that illegal for some reason. Lots of places do accept credit cards (eg starbuxks, hotels, fancy restaurants, ...).
They do have Visa/MasterCard (and at some fancy places, AmEx). I was just in Shanghai in October and used both a Visa and a MasterCard at multiple establishments.
The difference is that the domestic population of China is large enough to provide plenty of economic activity such that foreign tourists actually don't really move the needle. If you were operating a business, what would you do in that situation? There's not a lot of economic incentive to provide service to foreign tourists.
that sounds like a scam. i have not experienced that anywhere yet. there are hotels that don't accept foreigners. but any place that charges a foreigner more than a local for the same service is very dubious.
Access to Visa & MasterCard isn't what I'd call easy and convenient.
Previously, my perception was that WeChat Pay isn't available for me because WeChat isn't allowed to operate payment services in Europe, thus tries to keep me outside the system.
However, things could be easier since it's prepaid.
Foreign credit cards are almost never accepted in China. I've sometimes been able to use my non-Chinese Visa card in supermarkets, although even that has been rare and tedious. And hotels all take foreign credit cards, but that's clearly because so many foreigners want to use them to pay.
It's quite possible that WeChat is trying to avoid being regulated by non-Chinese authorities, and thus keeps foreigners out. They certainly (I'm guessing) don't want to have to deal with banking and privacy rules in other countries. So as you say, by keeping it restricted to prepaid usage, everyone wins.
The only thing I don't understand here is why they don't make it easier, more obvious, or more accessible to foreigners. The workarounds I describe have made my visits to China far easier over the last six months, and I hope that others will benefit, too!
Nice guide. I didn’t know it was possible without the Chinese phone number + Chinese bank account.
Getting a Chinese phone number and bank account was surprisingly painless for me. You prepay around 20-30$ for a phone number at 1rmb/500mb and the account is a simple form.
Then if you have a nice bank account with fee free international withdraws you can convert money without fee by going to the atm, withdrawing, then depositing. All in all I’d say it takes about 2-3 hours, though I’ve heard ymmv depending on what bank branch you try to set up your account.
I seriously thought about getting a bank account and phone number. But I have a single-SIM phone, and really didn't feel like swapping the SIM in and out, depending on who I was calling. (Nor did I feel like having two phones with me.)
But yes, if I hadn't managed to get WeChat payments to work, I probably would instead have written a guide on getting a Chinese bank account!
As I wrote in the blog post, I tried to get Alipay to work. So far as I can tell, they truly don't let foreigners (without Chinese bank accounts) use their payment system.
I managed to use Alipay but yes, with a Chinese bank account. Getting the bank account wasn't that difficult though. Alipay was awesome though. Really hate cash.
You could give RMB's to a friend and have them transfer you money to AliPay from their AliPay account. This involves your friend needing to go to their bank and deposit your RMB's into their account though.
I had no trouble getting a phone number and bank account. China Construction Bank was straight forward. They only ran into a few issues with the characters in my full name. They had to create a legal name for me in China. It took 2 hours for everything but I walked out of there with an account a debit card, access to their services via an app on my phone. They really made sure I was all set.
Your experience was very different from mine - I had to have two Chinese locals sign as guarantors just to get a prepaid China Mobile plan. My bank account took two trips of 1-2 hours each. Both times I went with a native speaker, so it wasn't a language issue. It could be because I'm in a less developed city - can I ask where you were at?
Not all China Mobile/Unicom service centers are built the same. Doing it inside the Shanghai/Beijing airport arrival areas is way easier than doing it in the city with a foreign passport.
Since this is being used as a guide, it might be worth being pedantic and pointing out that it's the 'wrong' way of doing it. It definitely beats carrying cash but it's a 'second class citizen'-ish way of using mobile payment.
The mechanism the OP used is the 'pocket change' system which, like its name suggest, can't be used everywhere. It's great for getting casual consummables, getting ice cream etc but doesn't work for services that requires more trust (since there is no credit system and they can't hold a charge on your credit card). For those (like rentals), you still need a local bank account.
Luckily, as others pointed out, it's fairly trivial to open a bank account with a foreign passport. The primary use method is also not to move money from your bank to your WeChat and then use it. People just leave their money in the bank draw from that via WeChat or AliPay directly.
As a random fun fact, you also don't need a local phone number to have a fully functional WeChat/AliPay account with bank linked. Though you do need a local phone number to open a bank account so it's a bit moot.
I was under the impression that you need a residence permit of at least a year to open a bank account with a foreign passport. Have you had success with opening a bank account on a tourist visa?
reality is: rules change. bank-clerks are not always up-to-date on rules. also, there are local variations. things that work in beijing or shanghai may not work in smaller cities, or vice versa. it also depends on the bank.
all you can take is that: one person was able to open a bank account, another was not.
when something doesn't work somethimes this means, other experiences are old, sometimes it means that it's worth trying a few places.
Hey OP, Thanks for your guide. I am from India where we have similar analouges such as PayTM and PhonePe. While Paytm is ubiquitous, cash is still king here.
I also had a chuckle when you had to explain so precisely the mechanism of how money is transferred between wechat accounts. I guess that is probably due to the fact that people in the west have very less experience with such services.
As an interesting additional thing, a new thing called UPI (unified Payments Interface) has been running in India. It basically allows you ti use your bank account like a wechat wallet. It is really popular among the young demographic and is gaining a wider acceptance due to less fees and no need of handing your money over to a company like Paytm or Wechat first. Money travels from bank account to bank account instantly with no fees.
Another option is that you spoof your sim card and gps to HK with xposed, and then the wallet will unlock, and if you are lucky enough, it will allow you to directly debit your credit card.
There is some kind of uncertain logic it uses to guess if somebody in HK is an actual Honkonger with a foreign credit card, but rumors are that some card issuers work 100% of times.
I think in comparison visa/master cards are really outdated payment methods. They are expensive and discriminative as merchants need to pay 2-3% transaction cost and banks give rebates based on some complex calculation. They are highly insecure as it’s easy for malicious actors to spoof your card.
In recent years, LocalBitcoins has become by far the cheapest, fastest, and simplest way to move money to and from my WeChat Pay wallet.
I used to give cash to local friends, but it was putting a strain on their (infinite) hospitality. I don't have a local bank account yet, although it is relatively straightforward to get one.
Yes, you can have other people send you money in this way, but it is actually pretty easy to get a Chinese bank account, even as a tourist. It will take you 20 minutes. Punch it into WeChat, taking into account how your name was entered on the bank system, and you're good to go.
(Re: The ExpressVPN ad in the middle of the article.) Personally I avoid any VPN service that uses affiliate codes to grow. It shows they don't really care about privacy. Which, sadly, applies to most commercial VPN services.
In principle, I’m with you. In practice, “build a better product and they’ll come [with no marketing]” just doesn’t work in the world filled with loud marketing by your inferior competitors.
In this specific case: ExpressVPN has been my default choice for 2 years% I travel a lot for work and maintain subscriptions to most top-tier VPNs, which I speed-check every few months. ExpressVPN hconsistently gives better speeds and latency across US, EU, and Asia-Pacific. No affiliate link but would recommend anyway.
Nice! I haven’t seen anything written by Reuven for a while, and just recently I was thinking about potential difficulties travelling in China in the ‘age of WeChat.’ Good to see his writeup.
FYI, every time I visit China, I write a bunch of things on Facebook about my experiences. (I know, lots of issues there, but it's convenient...) Follow/friend me there, and you'll see more about me and China!
India has gone a step ahead with their UPI based payment system. You don't even need to transfer money between your bank account and your mobile wallet. With the UPI interface you can use your cellphone to transfer money to another person or business just like China, and it doesn't expose your account numbers.
Technology is supposed to develop inclusively... instead we have life-essential systems developed with narrow-minded visions excluding all sorts of people that shouldn't be edge cases.
With the ubiquity of mobile this kind of thing really scares me.... phones are such an unreliable thing to place so much importance in
This may or may not be what the OP meant but if you trust Google Play and don't trust anything else like an APK from WeChat's website, then you won't be able to get it from the Play Store once you enter China. (Though you won't need to do this if you roam on some carriers like Google Fi or use the WiFi of some nicer hotels)
Yes, that was my point — that if you visit China with a non-Chinese Android phone, the phone will get apps from Google Play. Without a VPN, it won't be able to access Google Play, putting you in a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. So you need to install the VPN before you visit.
I never had a problem using cash to pay for things, including taxis. The biggest problem with taxis is that most drivers don't carry much change, so I always make sure i have a hundred RMB in small bills on me, just in case my phone is dead.
it's difference between not carrying cash and telling you they don't have cash/change for obvious reasons, this happens only to foreigners
if you are drunk enjoy those fake banknotes they have for these occasions. happened to me only once completely sober in restaurant they tried this while i was there with my Chinese wife, they really have no shame
here i will save your time reading that long nonsense - if you don't live in China and travel there, then ask any Chinese to top up your account and give them cash in exchange. if you live in China getting phone number and bank account it's extremely easy, there is not even waiting period for bank card, because there is no name on UnionPay cards so they can give you card immediately
That's great advice, except for one thing: Many Westerners visiting China cannot accept money transferred to them. The "wallet" functionality just doesn't exist. That's why I wrote that blog post. Sorry it wasn't useful for you.
Yes. You pay money to withdraw from your WeChat wallet into your (Chinese) bank account.
I've never had to do this, because I'm a foreigner, and thus cannot remove money from there.
Besides, WeChat is sitting on a pile of cash, thanks to this payment system: Everyone who transfers money into their WeChat wallet is basically giving TenCent (the WeChat company) money they can use to invest, or whatever they want. I've heard that they have about $60 billion at their disposal thanks to this, but I don't know where I read this and it's hard to know how accurate it is. But given that everyone in China uses WeChat payments, I wouldn't doubt it.
When I left China on Saturday night, I still had 600 RMB in my wallet. That money will remain there until my next visit, currently scheduled for April. I've effectively loaned 600 RMB to WeChat, which they can use however they want for four months. Multiplied over many users, that's potentially quite a bit.
I sometimes wonder how much money PayPal has failed to make over the years because they are so eager to freeze accounts at the drop of a hat that the only sensible policy is to empty your PayPal account at the earliest opportunity whenever you get a balance.
I expect every system with free person-to-person transfers and free withdrawals/deposits for individuals is funded by charging businesses using it. PayPal is like this, Sweden's Swish mobile payments are like this, I'm sure there's many others.
I simply don't like the thought that if I forget my phone, get my phone taken from me, drop my phone and it breaks, or run out of battery that I'll be stranded somewhere and unable to buy food, check in to a hotel, or even get home.
Societies should move toward more payment methods, not fewer. Redundancy is important, especially with something as essential as currency. Look at the recent CenturyLink outage which reduced non-cash sales at stores that relied on it for credit card transactions to zero.
Too much risk in too small a basket.