Yes all of that, in a way that isn't appealing to women. The kind of humour I enjoy includes dry self deprecation and obscure and nerdy tech jokes, and I literally am part of the reason why women don't get into computer science jobs. You can actually see the repulsive magnetic fields lines as they form patterns at a distance from me at parties, not quite knowing why they need to move but doing so anyhow. And you know what? I have the personality of leader, and I'm going to develop myself into more of one, and women can just go to guys like you when they want to tingle and shit.

> Do you have other interests besides programming - travel, books, movies, anything?

No, a little (and I recognize where your usernane is from), yes if I'm sitting with a girl, and some other things that vary over time, including most that are stereotypically male interests. (E.g. I love watching UFC with friends at a bar.)

But anyway, I apologize if it appears like I'm playing a version of Eric Berne's game "Why don't you...? yes but...", or ressentiment or glorifying my own powerlessness or whatever. I'm really not after help, though I recognize you and others would sincerely like to provide it.

I'm just pointing out that online dating really isn't the best path for everyone, especially for someone like me. I really am likable to some, but I just take a long time to get to know, and it has to be in person over time, and it can't be the sort of whiny entitled women online who are smart enough to understand the economics of scarcity:) My own best strategy will be a two-pronged attack - make a ton more money and get a lot more power (in my view, this is more honest than clowning my way through some speed seduction value elicitation NLP bullshit that revolts me). And along with it get off the internet more and do some things where there is continual interaction with women. Sometimes, I know from experience, even though such things aren't that enjoyable at first, they can take on a life of their own... E.g. the idea that supposedly Sartre got into philosophy to pick up girls.

Yeah, self-deprecating humor is definitely romantic death, I've kicked the habit over the years.

The reason I asked about interests is that 95% of my time is spent with interests that women find uninteresting - programming, reading history, reading economics, sports. Thus when I talk with women, I make sure to only talk about the 5% (design, architecture, society, relationships, psychology, travel) that women find interesting. In this way I am both authentic to myself ( I am genuinely interested in these topics), but also can make decent conversation.

I'm really not after help, though I recognize you and others would sincerely like to provide it.

I used to have a similar attitude to you, and similar droughts. So I feel oddly compelled to give the unsolicited advice that I wish someone had given me.

I have the personality of leader, and I'm going to develop myself into more of one, and women can just go to guys like you when they want to tingle and shit.

The arts of leadership are in many ways the arts of seduction.

make a ton more money and get a lot more power

All the best to you, but in the modern world this is one of the least efficient ways to try and find female companionship.

Wow... are you sure that all women are so homogeneous?

You are entirely wrong, if you accept the rest of your post at face value.

Women like leadership.

Leadership in its most primal form is not about intelligence, decisiveness, alpha male-ness, or what-have-you. Leadership is about people believing you have any of those powers (or some several I forgot). And that's where you're going entirely wrong!

You think that such a belief is worthless. You think that people give up something when they follow a leader. A leader is just one who takes the desires and wishes of the people who follow them into his/her own heart.

You think that women are really such base operators and are upset at them for that. And that makes it impossible for you to see them as human.

If you think that making money and power will get you women, you're entirely right. You'll hit the point at which such things are so attractive that your other "defects" won't matter. Money can buy anything with a pricetag, and power can buy anything that can be intimidated.

But you won't be happy until you realize that you're on an equal level with those women whom you despise.

And that's the core of why I'm angry with you. You think you're better than women because they fall for speed seduction value elicitation bullshit, but at the same time you think you're hot shit ("personality of leader") and buy into same shit in your seeking of power. Do you think women will interest you once you can buy them?

The better framework is that yes, there are women who will fall for power and money; yes, there are women who will be seduced by "demonstration of value"; but there are a lot of women. Even speed seduction respects women's choice by taking tactics that try to influence it.

I apologize, I'm being harsh in calling you out so thoroughly. I'm a little drunk.

But fuck it, this story is about online dating in an absurdly negative light, and I've had more than a few friends succeed in online dating because they were serious about finding and evaluating someone.

Good luck in whatever sort of woman you choose to pursue.

I don't have any hatred for women. I just resent the fact that I am nearly completely unattractive to them, being the person I really am and strive to be. I look around on online personals sites and I'd be thrilled to get a relationship with at least 1/3 of them. In nearly all other areas of life, you can view the genders with symmetry, but someone who thinks low status males like me are playing in the same universe as almost any woman has just never been to an online dating site. There, yes, we might as well be different species.

Yes I do think I'm hot shit, thank you very much, and I intend to prove it. Overcompensation? Fuck yes. Being more of a technical leader is something I want for my own terms, quite unlike being a phony who pretends that traveling gives me some stupid emotions that it doesn't. I hate airports and I will say so if asked. In that sense, having money and success will be my personal "protocol" that will allow women to discover the real me deep down. And I'm not really so bad, despite occasionally displaying my worst qualities, such as in this post:)

For me, online dating is indeed an absurdly negative experience. Compared to a more equal environment, I do feel its pull to make me cynical and less happy to be a human being. I will see what kind of women I can attract in a few years, and the good part is that I only need one, and I will appreciate the hell out of her when I find her.

This is very much not leadership; this is superiority. That can be extremely off putting if not handled rightly. Particularly if you dominate proceedings simply because of being the best. (it's difficult; I'm an excellent climber but I have to dial it back or I won't find anyone who wants to climb with me).

Something doesn't add up though (and I apologise for being blunt). You are obviously confident, have an attractive body and are smart - these are traits that will attract a mate very easily! (particularly the smarts).

One of two things may be happening.

Perhaps you are disillusioned with dating or with women and, so, are scuppering relationships via attitude or actions.

The other might be you simply have an off putting attitude without realising it when contacting women online. In fact from your post I suspect this is the problem. shrug

I've been in contact with women online that are off putting with their directness and surety - even if it is them you do have to be a bit cautious when starting out a relationship. The internet is impersonal so if done wrong you can come across very easily as arrogant and superior :)

Give me a few years, see if people I'm working with look up to me, and tell me I don't have the personality of a leader. I think I still won't be good enough for women though. Do I have a chip on my shoulder for this? Yes.

This is, basically, your entire problem. People look up to you for many reasons - I doubt you will ever achieve the respect you want the way you are going. People will roll their eyes and say "yes X, well done" (we have people like that at work; they don't last long...

My Boss commands respect in huge measure; he grafted his whole life, is very smart, very companionable, always willing to help people, always willing to listen to everyone in the firm. I suspect this is the sort of thing you are after - and be warned it takes a long time and serious, bashful effort.

Tried OkCupid? For my age it is a good experience and there seems to be plenty of mid-30's on there too. It's much more relaxed.

There are several points of bullshit in your post. The first is that you are _absolutely_ ashamed of who you are. You don't think you'll be good enough for women! That's a wild self-degradation on your part. You'd take 1/3 of the women on dating sites? What kind of valid self-estimation is that supposed to be?

Second, no one cares about technical perfection. Technical perfection is not artistry, for one thing; artistry is about being, taking space, feeling, and embracing honesty. Things that aren't quantified because they aren't rational. This threatens to stray from the topic, so I'll cut it short for now and skip to the clearer argument, which is: there is someone better than you. The world is huge. And what will you do when you meet that person, if your ego depends on being the technical best?

For some reason you seek out visible status symbols to mark your ego's progress. Not everyone can be the President. Not everyone can program. Being the best is not a victory.

>I am never ashamed of who I am, and I will meet you face to face, give you my real name, and look you in the eye.

You just won't do that if I'm a _woman._ And if you did, you'd probably do a lot better at talking with them.

You've probably adopted your technical and career focus because of your dream to live up to your potential and be successful. And that's admirable, of course. But there is a lot more to having a fulfilling life than just the virtue of productive work. There is the more human and cultural side of life, of which your desire to date is a part of.

It's time to expand your dream to include more of this other aspect of life.

It's a big world, but you haven't yet allowed yourself to explore much of it, neither intellectually or physically. Forgive me if I overreach, but have you made a negative value judgement on your own curiosity about the world, in the name of becoming a more productive and better programmer?

A worldly curiosity is what will give you breadth and diversity of experience, which in turn will make you a more interesting person, and ultimately make you a more creative problem solver and team member. It will also make you more socially comfortable and skilled.

Pay attention to the impulse that led you to your previous pursuit of classical voice that you mentioned. That's an unusual and intriguing hobby, an art that connects you with a tradition spanning thousands of years. And of course, there are lots of cool, nerdy music girls who do it too (especially if you're near a college with a good arts program). You mentioned it was there that you had some success with women. I submit it wasn't just because some of the other guys were gay, it was because you were doing something unusual and interesting that made you seem more attractive as a person.

You've (admirably) rejected the idea of the seedy seduction manuals. Those aren't what dating is about, anyway. In a healthy point of view dating and relationships aren't about games, tricks, and seduction, and you're mistaken if you think that is what people in relationships are actually doing.

Dating is about discovering the interesting qualities of another person and exploring the world and reaches of human experience. It's also about being discovered as a person, by the other person. But you've got to have something interesting to discover. And for that you've got to be curious about the world first. So rather than just giving up on dating, gritting your teeth and forcing your nose closer to the grindstone with the goal of becoming "more powerful and wealthy" as a solution, I think you need to expand your curiosity, and the range and variety of your pursuits.

PS- This isn't a throwaway account; it's my first post. And to be on topic: It's from someone who has had several very enjoyable long term relationships thanks to online dating sites.

You could say I'm making up for lost time since I did take a couple of years completely off of programming to do a few things, including a lot of voice study and some semi-pro paying operetta gigs. That left me nearly unemployable for about a year, and I'm just really starting to re-establish myself career wise, and I am more dedicated to programming than I've ever been before, and I'm enjoying it a lot more than ever before. I'm also far less interesting to women than ever before:) I can handle it though, since I'm becoming the person I want to be which I have decided is more important than meeting a woman, at least for a few years.

Yes I'm monotonous. I pretty much have nothing in common and nothing to offer a woman, yes I seriously believe this. If I were a woman I'd honestly want to pick a taller, more attractive, friendlier, and much more charming guy like you. I'm fierce, I'm driven, I'm focused on tunnel vision, and right now I don't give a fuck about trying fake some stupid personality full of flowery feelings. This thread has given me enough anger to want to code for about 50 hours during my four day weekend and I'm quite thrilled by this.

I'm fascinated by all ideas, especially the ones that bore the shit out of women. (Math, hard science, programming fundamentals, nerdy trivia.) I've tried travel and it's not just that I'm not interested, I actively dislike it, and don't want to do it. I don't need to actually be in a new place to discover new ideas. I don't need to try new foods either, I eat to have a killer body right now. But really I'm an interesting person, and I make friends very easily, but generally only with nerdy men who are also chronically single, heh.

There are a few things I've learned trying different approaches on online personals for almost a year. (In addition to making up desperate ways of trying to avoid the yawning cataclysm of misogyny:) ) One is that for a man in his thirties, potential doesn't mean shit, and underachieving is repulsive. I need to fix that, I absolutely do.

Again this is who I am, and it's who I enjoy being, and I am quite conscious that any personality I would craft myself toward to be attractive to women would be nearly the complete opposite. But one thing is for sure, I may be frustrated (and man oh man am I frustrated), but I'm not average, and I sure am not a chump.

In ways I envy you that the person you are and want to be is someone women are interested in, so that you don't have to face this conflict of interest every day and can do what is naturally invigorating to you, without being like a modern day monk who trades off discipline, enlightenment, and intellectual invigoration for years of complete involuntary celibacy:)

You've described several qualities and characteristics that a lot of guys would be envious of. You have all your limbs, a good brain, a singing voice. Drop the self-defeating attitude. Many men have made a success with less.

Best of luck to you.

I know, but they're pretty much perfectly correlated with me getting what I want out of life (in all areas except with women), and being less interesting to them. Yes, failure begets failure and reinforcing negative mental patterns, which I am extremely familiar with having spent many years of my life alone and frustrated. And yes, I'm well aware that the average amputee male has much higher status with women than I ever will.

I'm not really as self-defeating as I'm venting out here though. I just know that online personals are a fantastically awful experience for me, having spent years on them, as well has having had the pleasure to meet much more suitable women in the more conventional way. Just read all the replies to me from any man who has succeeded there. It is _all_ about recognizing that geeky men are piece-of-shit commodities who nobody wants as is, and recognizing that it is a game where presenting a true personality free from guile is a hopeless proposition. You will call this disdain, but if so it is also cold truth, and these things are just simply different universes for men versus women online. I have never felt this way (like a worthless piece of too-short shit) in any other area of life, and the parent article resonated with me very much.

Anyway I really didn't mean to jack this topic into a personal self-help section. I'll be more careful in the future!

From your posts on here it appears you're confusing "leader" for "asshole". Part of actually having "the personality of leader" is charisma. Your posts make it sound like you have anti-charisma.

Your personality won't drive people away, as long as you make a good first impression. After that, you can be yourself!

To practice, you should try speed dating. If you really think no girl is interested, then just for fun, write YES to every girl you meet so they will tell you how many matches -- I bet you'll get more than you expect ;)