>“You go from working 50, 60, 70 hours a week to zero,” Moen says. “And it very much affects your identity. Who am I? For men, the answer usually is their job.”
I feel like this is a problem our whole life however it is only once we retire that we are forced to confront it. Until then we are able to avoid dealing with a lack of fulfilling activities outside of work, limited social connections and a weak sense of identity outside of work by simply working more. When we retire that coping mechanism goes away and you are left with no hobbies, a weak social network and a weak self image.
Personally, I strongly recommend trying cutting your work commitments to something like 20 hours per week. Do this for a year or so. It will give you a chance to realize that many of the things you previously did whenever you got the chance (sleeping in etc) become extremely boring when you can do them all the time.
After a while you will likely start to crave some sense of structure and accomplishment and the sooner you start filling the void outside of your work the better. Having a meaningful existence outside of your job will make you happier both now and in retirement.
I think this is why it's good to work for an employer who supports open source.
You don't want the entire value of your work and your social connections to be abruptly cut off once you leave the company. I saw this happen to both my parents. My dad was forced to retire at 53 and the value of his work was locked up inside that company (he worked there for over 20 years, so your skills develop in a bubble).
For the last year and a half, I've been working on open source sponsored by the company. (I've worked on open source since 2009, but this is the first time I've been paid for it.) Even though it's mostly "our" project, there are enough outsiders lurking / paying attention I know that if I were to leave the company, I might have some opportunities or people to reach out to, or even just people to talk to about technical topics.
Some of the proprietary software I've worked on has been very interesting, important, and technically sophisticated... but I know that once I leave the company, its value is drastically decreased. Basically you have to build up that value "from scratch" again, whereas open source can be forked, modified, combined, etc.
I have also been employed to work on open source software. I actually didn't really think of it until now but it is nice to still see stuff going on in the project. I am still on some mailing lists plus I get notifications of tickets I previously touched being modified, commented on, resolved. It is also still quite within my capabilities to jump on and fix the occasional bug if I so desire, or just provide some thoughts on issues others are working through.
As you mention, the proprietary software companies I have worked for are very different. By close of business on your final day you are locked out of everything.
> your social connections to be abruptly cut off once you leave the company.
I work for a company that fosters a community of our company alumni. Mostly by having a side chat alongside the main company chats, and arranging alumni meetings every now and then. So nothing that big really.
But it does help I think -- some people decide to come back later, there are perhaps new business opportunities for the company, you get to keep in touch with old colleagues. I think it's a very good thing to have.
Another standpoint is what happens when a company is acquired (or goes under) - projects are often rolled in to something else or vanish entirely. Even from a business owner's perspective you may still have the ability to say - we built X or Y, perhaps long after the original company is forgotten.
No, the claim is: for programmers, it's better to work for a company who supports open source than one that doesn't.
As the article mentioned, work is important for life. It gives your mind varied experiences, which keeps it sharp. Open source means the value of your work doesn't evaporate once you leave the company.
Of course, you could try to fill 8 hours a day with something besides programming once your retire. But it's still strictly better to have the OPTION to continue programming, and even better to do it with some of the same code (assuming nontrivial codebases).
If you spend 30 years doing something 40 hours a week, you're going to be a lot better at it than something you only did on weekends. And at least for me, the reward is tied to the accomplishment.
For example, I've been learning how make videos with a DSLR recently. But this is at most a weekend thing. It's not that rewarding in the initial stages since I'm not good at it, and nobody cares about the end result because it's not good enough. With programming that's not the case.
If I were retired, I wouldn't be able to build meaningful work out of shooting video (or at least it would take another 5-10 years to do so). But I would be able to with programming, outside of a job. I could teach programming too, whereas I can't teach video.
But of course it's good to cultivate other hobbies... you could get crippling RSI and not be able to program. But my point is that work is privileged over hobbies. It's a different thing. Dawdling around with no goal is what makes people lose their mental toughness.
I think the idea is that there's a potentially meaningful part of someone's life outside of their company if what they work on isn't just contained in their company. I don't read it as the OP suggesting it's a precondition for a meaningful life; it seems to be one potential path.
I recognize I'm in this situation, but I have no idea what one could do to make a life meaningful, outside of good work or raising great kids, hopefully with a loving partner. I have already tried many things: Living in 3 other countries for 4 years in total (but I was missing family and friends support), being self-employed (I do B2B software like P.McKenzie), learning to dance (3 times, but I feel crap at it), music, judo, hundreds hours of volunteering (social, like activities for kids or refugees or mid-suburbs, or climate) but at one point it feels like cheap exploitation of underpaid workers, ... My sister climbs summits or goes to the end of herself (6000km biking anyone?) but I don't see the point. Those experiences never made me feel happy or fulfilled with my life (I'm 33). Only having a girlfriend once fulfilled me (until she dumped me like "you don't have leadership with your life") but you didn't count "partner" among things that fulfill your free time, did you? Let's be honest, I find life a bit boring ;) So what do you mean with "structure and accomplishment"? Do you have examples?
> Only having a girlfriend once fulfilled me (until she dumped me like "you don't have leadership with your life") but you didn't count "partner" among things that fulfill your free time, did you?
Please don't try to find this there. It makes you dependant on a person which isn't healthy for both of you and you are not going to find this idealised love in a relationship.
The main reasons that I see for men slowly losing their social life is because of work and obsessive fixation on a relationship.
I'm not saying don't have a relationship because it's great, it's just that I don't believe it should ever be the sole purpose of your life.
> So what do you mean with "structure and accomplishment"? Do you have examples?
For me at least this is having a great social network of friends. The fact that there's every day something to do for me outside of work together with friends. That's at least what I've been focusing on.
I'm in a happy relationship but I'm not going to give up my social life for her as so many of my friends did.
If you don't have a decent social network by the time you've left university (or if you lose it, e.g. by moving), it's hard to build one.
You can meet people here and there by going to Meetups and whatnot, but it's hard to go beyond casual acquaintance. You can't ask the same person to hang out too often, or you start seeming desperate and they will value your time and your friendship less.
And a bunch of one-to-one connection don't work, you need to build an interconnected network. But if you already had a nice group of people to connect newcomers to, you wouldn't have the problem in the first place. If you're lucky, you'll make one acquaintance that will pull you into their own social network, but that's not easy. If it's a network of people who have all known each other for a while, you'll always be the outsider.
If you want to try to put a network together yourself, you need to organize activities where strangers (your individual acquaintances) can meet and start forming connections. But it's pretty hard to get several people together at once. If you want to go to some event, you need to find something that everyone will like. And even then, it needs to be repeatable. You need to get your friends to meet several times, so one-off events, like a festival, won't work.
The best option, in my experience, is a house party. Everyone likes that, and you can have it however many times you like... provided you have a house where you can host people. In some areas, such as S-fucking-F, this is hard and/or very expensive.
And of course, you need to be the sort of person who can act as the hub of a social network. If you're introverted, you probably don't have the right skills.
If you can't be the hub yourself, your best bet is to befriend someone who can be the hub, so they'll build a social network that includes you. But if that person has been around a while, you're back to the outsider problem. They already have a network, and it doesn't include you. If you find someone who has hub-skills and is new in town, you may have struck gold. Of course, their social network will start to fall apart once they leave town.
One somewhat extreme yet effective solution to this is to get into situations where no one knows anyone and where there is some shared hardship involved.
We did this by moving to another country where there was limited potential to really integrate into the local community (Thailand).
Because expats existed in their own little community and everyone walked off the plane knowing no one all the new comers are extremely open to forming new friendships. At to this that moving to another country is a challenging experience which you are going through together and there is a very high potential for making a whole new group of friends.
The only similar equivalent I can imagine would be something like joining the military. Everyone shows up knowing no one then they all undergo a series of challenging experiences together. It is not surprising that some military people seem to form lifelong bonds with their peers.
Meanwhile if you stay wherever you usually live, an environment relatively lacking in hardship where everyone else has at least a semblance of an existing social network, making a whole new social network is extremely tough.
I hope it works out for everyone but imho it is very dangerous.
If I did this and the relationship ends 20 years from now I could find myself being an old guy without any friends and then it's harder (but still possible) to find new friends. (because you get rusty when you didn't do this kind of thing for decades)
I can definitely see why some people then choose to sit in front of a TV all day, because with your friends probably also a lot of the activities and hobbies you once enjoyed are gone.
I too don't feel having a partner and a family is enough for me to consider life fulfilling. For me a more meaningful life would also include doing more programming - but on a projects that I believe in, instead of ones I get assigned by my employers. It would also include a lot of what you'd call hard work in other domains, like electronics, chemistry, etc. - but again, self-directed, and for things that I care about.
Basically, I have shit ton of projects, ideas how to improve things for myself and people around me, that I don't have time to pursue because of $dayjob and $obligations. And I guess one could summarize it with one word - autonomy. This is something that I think leads to a more fulfilling life.
I'm like you, but I'm 30 and don't want a family or kids. And travel sounds incredibly boring.
I've been investing 90% of my income the past five years. When the article or any coworker says "enjoy your hard earned money" it makes no sense to me. What does spending money have to do with happiness?
And yet, more money is all I want. If you gave me a billion dollars tomorrow my first thought would be "how do I turn that into two billion?"
I might become a monk. Serious. Ever thought of that?
There are some studies out there (too lazy now to go search for any) that mentions that money is related to hapiness up to a point that it can get you out of poverty and make you stop thinking about it.. Then, the relation is mostly none.
Seriously, what would you do with those 2 billion?
That research has been called into question [0]. In my opinion it's like anything else...there is no absolute answer. Some people will be happier with more money. Some won't.
I might recommend you start Qi-Gong, or some authentic energy manipulation art. After 20 years of practicing or so (If one has a good teacher/school), things can get pretty interesting internally. This type of hobby is a prerequisite for shaolin monks who want to go further into the depths of zen meditation. (which would be quite dangerous at advanced levels without qi-gong allowing them to control their internal organizational cell energy (or Qi/Prana in Asian terms))
Yes. I'm insecure about myself and I feel like having a lot of money might solve the issue. At least let me walk around confidently, comfortable in my own skin. At least, that's the hypothesis.
one advice - take a backpack, turn off your phone and go around india for couple of months, low key, low budget. either himalaya, or south, or anything in between (varanasi can be a powerful experience). it changed my life for better, much better, and so did for many more people. It doesn't have to be india per se, but it's the most exotic place to western culture out there and supremely huge.
if you look for some enlightenment from behind the keyboard, there will be none.
(on personal level, mountains and travelling to them & around did it for me. it takes time to be in shape to enjoy them and not only suffer up & down, but it's well worth it. most intense moments of my life happened this way. i will die with a smile on my face for having a privilege to experience them)
It's a good advice, but not everyone needs to run away from something. Sometimes we just have to face ourselves and do a deep introspection on our lives.. I, for myself, find it really hard sometimes to know how I should run my life, or what are my goals. Maybe sometimes there isn't any need to have goals, or maybe my goal is to accomplish every goal so that I empty my goal bucket..
Whatever, I think each one of us are mostly giving bad advices to each other, and the truth is that almost no one knows with certainty what we're doing with our lifes. We just go with the tide, turning left or right when things seems to match what we think we want..
it was never about running away from anything, I was coming back in 3 months to things and people I left there. It was about adventure, exposing yourself to new situations, cultures, people, everything. every single day. it gives you huge amount of time to see yourself, introspect, experience yourself in all kinds of crazy conditions, and discover that we humans are amazing, strong beings if we try a bit.
also that monetary wealth and happiness are almost mutually exclusive, but that's another topic :)
as for those goals - while hiking in nepal around annapurna, i met american guy, great fella, who unknowingly changed course of my life in many ways. planted some sort of idea-seed in my head. never expected anything like that to happen, there or anywhere. best thing in my life. but for this, you cannot plan nor prepare. for sure, it won't happen while staying at home.
It's novel but it's an ephemeral novelty. It disappears as soon as you're home and back in your old ways. Better to understand the internal source of dissatisfaction and address it directly.
If life is truly boring and you seek "meaning" then your suggestion, "raising great kids", is the path to take.
Picking up that first little bundle in your hands sets off neurons that lay latent for decades awaiting the moment and which instantaneously rewire your brain to protect/foster. If you had control before that moment, you certainly don't after. And you'll have more "meaning" than you can handle.
Bad news: you'll _worry_ about them until you die - retirement will be the _least_ of your concerns.
P.S. Mormon girls are smart, friendly, usually very healthy and most of them believe that children are a good thing.
> I have no idea what one could do to make a life meaningful, outside of good work or raising great kids
But isn't that meaningful enough? Having one's own kids is great and very fullfiling, and having good work can be as well (although not as much as having kids, imho).
I have an anecdote about my experience not working for a long period of time. Sounds like I'm in quite a different place in my life to you but I hope you don't mind me sharing and maybe there might be some part of it that is useful. :)
I just spent a year on maternity leave when my second child was born in May last year and headed back to the office in April this year. I'm a software developer for a medium sized team.
Adjusting to not being at work was quite difficult for about the first four months, particularly towards the end of the fourth month where the novelty had worn off but I hadn't really figured it out yet.
Because it was my second leave, I knew that to be content I would have to work through my feelings around my identity without work. It was both difficult and freeing to rediscover myself outside of the pressures of work. I personally felt a little bit afraid that there wouldn't be much left (kind of sad, I know), but I tried to just stay patient with my feelings. I feel like my identity now is more grounded. It was interesting that actually most of the things I value about myself didn't really change. One less thing to feel irrationally afraid of, I guess. :)
With a toddler and a baby at home, I didn't have trouble filling my days, but I thought a lot about how I could best enjoy the time. My goal was just to feel content, not necessarily happy or fulfilled.
The best thing was spending time with my local mum friends. The kids and I would meet up with our friends during the day at least three times a week. I think having a strong, available local network was really important for feeling connected and staying sane.
I joined a local charity for supporting families with babies and ran a group for parents with new babies. It was lovely doing something I felt very passionate about that made the world a tiny bit better. It was kind of nice to be able to use my organisational skills to get it all up and running. A slightly surprising (to me) result was it expanded my social network quite a lot.
I worked on a personal programming project. With all the other things going on, I really needed something just for myself and to work my brain in that way. I would really look forward to the middle of the day when both my kids were resting.
At around four months, we all fell into a fairly comfortable routine. Our days had a fairly standard rhythm and we had regular playdates and play groups to break up the week. The weeks actually started to pass quite quickly at that point.
I feel quite proud that I learnt to live at a slower pace. I miss being able to walk the buggy up to the park just because the day is sunny. It felt quite luxurious to be able to spend as long as I (or my kids) wanted on things, to choose what I was going to do with my day and to not be on a timetable.
I was kind of ready to come back to work after my time was up (small kids are physically and emotionally demanding!), but I was really glad to have the experience. I think in an ideal world, I'd have a career break every five years. It was such a wonderful way to unwind and get some perspective on things.
Err... but I'm a man. Although you'll find counter-examples, spending time with local mum friends won't do it as a man, I already can't count how many sexist jokes I get from girls every time I cook. Also, you describe a lifestyle where you don't have to bring money back home: No wonder you like it. Should I suppose you had a boyfriend working?
So, no, sorry, I can't make a baby and get 4 months of holidays, and my girlfriend is not going to pay for my lifestyle.
It's quite a mistake to show off to a man about things they can't have, especially things that are invoiced to men (such as the lady's free meal).
>“You go from working 50, 60, 70 hours a week to zero,” Moen says. “And it very much affects your identity. Who am I? For men, the answer usually is their job.”
That is why it's important not anchor your identity in the transient. The world is full of people who do and it invariably hits them hard when things inevitably change: Mothers with empty nest syndrome, ageing people clinging desperately to their youthful good looks, jobless and retired people who find their self-esteem smashed and consider themselves useless.
It helps if you clearly define the roles you play in your life: a husband, a father, a brother, a friend, a software dev, a jogger, a cyclist, a member of the local club, an avid collector of y and, above all, a person who can create new roles and find new places for yourself.
> It helps if you clearly define the roles you play in your life: a husband, a father, a brother, a friend, a software dev, a jogger, a cyclist, a member of the local club, an avid collector of y and, above all, a person who can create new roles and find new places for yourself.
Most of those things ARE transient.
Most of the retirees anymore had their jobs for life (ok, 30+ years). As in, within a single company. After that long, employment is taken for granted, and it's hard to see oneself not being on the job.
Yes, that's exactly the point I was making. It's why you need to be able to view them as temporary roles you are playing and not what you are or all you are.
I've been out of work for 3 years (by choice). I haven't found this way to fill my void outside of work better. I'm not sure jumping in the deep end and assuming people will find a way is the right path for everyone.
I've done a lot of open source in that time but, at least for me that's not enough. I don't have an SO and so effectively I have zero companionship. Work often filled that void, especially with lots of overtime on teams. My closest friends are all x-coworkers. The last job though, for whatever reason, provided none of that, co-workers never became friends outside of work, one of the reasons I left.
I'm not retired though (don't have funds for that) so eventually I'll get a job again. In the meantime there's all the obvious solutions like volunteering, going to meetups, organizing meetups, etc. For various reasons I haven't pursued those yet
+1. If your finances are sorted out, it's good to take a break from work for 2-3 months and do absolutely nothing. What you once craved, 8 hours of sleep, hanging out with friends, traveling, spending time with family etc, once you experience them for a long enough time, will start hurting and you will start craving for work. I think it's a myth that one can just chill out forever, which is why I also believe that UBI will also work.
And I think it's a myth you can't. I did so for a year and for various reasons had to jump back to the meat grinder, I never felt less alive than being back to work. It's demeaning, in all senses.
You probably have the wrong idea about chill, if you sleep 10h a day and do nothing else than watch cartoons may be don't blame the lack of work, but the lack of ambition. You can garden (that'll keep you plenty busy), reduce your footprint on this rotten planet by crafting things yourself, be active in meeting new people, open your horizons.
This "work is meaningful" is the biggest lie of our era, it feels meaningful because most have forgotten how to enjoy their day to day life and the fulfillment that comes with being in charge of your own life. Work as we know and do it is a travesty and a lie kept alive because it benefits some.
I hear people talk about progress, about the planet, the environment, well if we stopped working so damn much may be all of that would have a better future, because right now the work & consuming obsessed society we are is destroying it while most like to pretend we're improving.
Craving for work... One craves for work like one craves for death.
As a counterpoint, I've been off on a sabbatical for 4 months now, and I wasn't sure exactly what I was going to do.
I honestly thought that I would be bored and craving work at this point. But it turns out that I have enough open source ideas that 3 months can fly by with pleasure, and I extended my sabbatical for another few months.
I also have neighbors who I'm friends with, which helps tremendously. And I get to go to all the nice places in SF during the daytime, when it's not crowded.
I agree it's good to take a break from your job, but for me that meant working on stuff I've wanted to work on for YEARS.
I don't think you'll ever get sick of 8 hours of sleep :) That really helps the brain, and mental health. (Although I always got of 8 hours of sleep, even while working)
Honestly, most of your friends and family are probably all working and busy with their own stuff. You can hang out with them a little more, but it's not like you'll ever go from hanging out once a week to hanging out every day. And at least to me, travelling is boring if you don't know anyone there, or have any larger purpose. It feels like I'm constantly getting ripped off too.
Travelling feels like consumption; programming feels like creation. Consumption is only fun in the moment, IMO. The difficulty of creation provides some of the ups and downs that you need for an interesting mental life.
And exercising is harder on vacation for me... I end up getting antsy and uncomfortable because I'm not biking every day.
But yeah I think it is good to spend some time semi-retired and see if you can bear it!
Great points. To me, any act of creation or any act that aids in creation = work. Programming, gardening, reading, investing, polishing shoes - anything that makes you feel like you've done something. Rest is all consumption. Chill out = consumption, which I think has some limits.
I meant to say 10 hours of sleep, but hey 8h is the new 10h :)
>I think it's a myth that one can just chill out forever
Absolutely. My wife and I spent a few years traveling full-time, mostly SE Asia. I worked remotely while my wife was busy with various projects.
In particular, tropical islands are incredibly damaging to your motivation and general happiness. We arrived grossly overestimating how much we would enjoying hanging out on a tropical islands and met a great many people who had the same misconception.
For good reason most who have the option to stay long term get bored and then go somewhere else after a few weeks or months. Among those who stay long term alcoholism is rife. There just isn't that much to do in a "tropical paradise", particularly at night.
Getting back into a city was a genuine relief after a few months of islands, beaches etc.
A tropical island with a goodly supply of rum punch, a well-stocked library, and a hammock sounds like paradise to me. Whenever I go on vacation, catching up on my reading is always one of my goals.
That is the trap, assuming that what appeals on a vacation will remaining appealing once it becomes your normal state. It isn't even just an issue of getting bored, the knowledge that this is your normal life rather than a time boxed vacation changes your experience from day one.
well, staying at one place makes no sense if you want to have ultimate experience. one can easily spend 10-20 years travelling from one exotic location to the next, if cash is present. even just tropical paradise hopping can be done for 1-2 years.
best setup i've seen is to travel around the globe maybe 2 years, through all possible locations. enjoy given country for few weeks/months if it's a big one and move.
after that, people were ready to settle (but who knows for how long)
For me at least this isn't didn't work. As just a small example I went to Europe for 3 months. Helsinki->Stockholm-Antwerp->Brussels->Berlin->Copenhagen->Tromso->Amsterdam->Koln->Dusseldorf->London. Seeing each city was great but the actual things to do start to get very similar. Each city has 2-3 churches. A bunch of art museums with many of the same artists. Yet another farmer's market or marketplace. Shopping centers with the same brands. etc..
I think it was "Happy Money" by Elizabeth Dunn that claimed their studies indicated that long vacations are not as effective as short vacations because most people get used to it quickly and the novelty wears off. That certainly fits my experience.
If her research is true then it would suggest taking a short trips every once in a while (a week or less?) would be more rewarding than a long trips.
Of course everyone is different. I'm sure some people love infinite travel.
i would never consider visiting any western (or westernized) country to be on par with truly exotic ones, especially when backpacking. maybe they just 'click' with me and all people I know that went through this and describe similar effects, you can be surely different.
but until you try that india experience I suggest, backpacking, on low budget, we're talking about completely different experiences in depth and intensity. 3 months were enough for me, went twice like that.
just one comparison - after a month, all life back home was a very distant memory. after additional month spent hiking in nepal, all my previous life seemed like a faded memory of a dream i had a month ago, unreal. or like childhood memories. not sure how to describe it better
I took an early retirement a few years ago, this is good advice about cutting back work, but for many people it's hard to get there employer to agree to fewer hours. There are many reasons for this, not the least of which the way many employers control cost is buy just limiting headcount. Another option, which I took is to take a leave of absence. I took off 4 months, the most I could swing about 5 years before I finally quit. Certainly for 4 months I didn't feel bored at all. For me at least, two years now I'm not bored at all. For people interested in learning new technology, in my opinion there has never been a better time.
Also agree with the need to develop social connections outside of work. That could be friends you share a hobby or activity with, a volunteer group or cause you believe in, or anything else. Another option is finding part time work after you quit. I had a close childhood friend who asked me to help him with a project. We live in different parts of the country and previously we communicated at best once a year or so. Now even when there's not much to do we talk at least once a month.
I also recommend reading up on the subject before you do. This is reading list I went through leading up to my retirement. While much of the financial advice maybe out of date, some of it covers just the psychological aspects.
This is why I love teaching. You get a "mini-retirement" for the two summer months every year. After a few years, this gets old and you are forced to find new hobbies to fill the time. Nowadays, I look forward to my summers off precisely because I can start working on my hobbies/side projects for 30 hours a week.
I feel like this is a problem our whole life however it is only once we retire that we are forced to confront it. Until then we are able to avoid dealing with a lack of fulfilling activities outside of work, limited social connections and a weak sense of identity outside of work by simply working more. When we retire that coping mechanism goes away and you are left with no hobbies, a weak social network and a weak self image.
Personally, I strongly recommend trying cutting your work commitments to something like 20 hours per week. Do this for a year or so. It will give you a chance to realize that many of the things you previously did whenever you got the chance (sleeping in etc) become extremely boring when you can do them all the time.
After a while you will likely start to crave some sense of structure and accomplishment and the sooner you start filling the void outside of your work the better. Having a meaningful existence outside of your job will make you happier both now and in retirement.