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Just to clarify, are you implying here that elderly, infirm, or underage people benefit from car dependence?

Because...




I'm not "implying" it. I'm stating it. And it's not a "dependence", it's a blessing. It's given people the freedom to live where they want, far away from the filthy, crime-ridden cities that you appear to idolize.

Living in the city can be fun when you're a 20-something with no dependents. Most people change their minds once they have families. That's why suburbs exist.

And I notice that you didn't answer my questions.


> crime-ridden cities

Still living in 1980-s?

Meanwhile poverty in subarbs growing faster than in cities and crime is also quite a bit growing. Safe area of Brooklyn is a lot safer than in Elyria, OH, although Elyria is a suburb of a big city.


1) You don't get to cherry-pick a "safe area of Brooklyn" and compare it with the whole of Elyria.

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Elyria-Ohio.html

There are "safe areas" in Elyria that have a crime rate of 6 (national average: 286, according to this site's measurment methodology)

2) Elyria has over 50,000 people. That's hardly a representative suburb.


> You don't get to cherry-pick a "safe area of Brooklyn" and compare it with the whole of Elyria.

Do you understand at all how big Brooklyn is? A safe area of Brooklyn is at least 250,000 people; actually perhaps 400,000 or so.

> There are "safe areas" in Elyria that have a crime rate of 6 (national average: 286, according to this site's measurment methodology)

Where? Cannot see anything like that on the map you linked.

> 2) Elyria has over 50,000 people. That's hardly a representative suburb.

Please, educate me how to (cherry)pick a representative suburb.


"A safe area of Brooklyn is at least 250,000 people; actually perhaps 400,000 or so."

Fine. Show me a "safe area" of Brooklyn that has a crime rate of 6

"Where? Cannot see anything like that on the map you linked."

I should have said other suburbs in the same area. For example, Westlake.

"Please, educate me how to (cherry)pick a representative suburb."

Well, for a start you don't pick out the one with the highest crime rate.

That map demonstrates that Elyria is an extreme outlier, even for the area, much less for the country as a whole.

You got busted, dude.


> Fine. Show me a "safe area" of Brooklyn that has a crime rate of 6 6? No, I cannot. May be somewhere on Mars.

But according to city-data, overall crime rate in NYC was 256.1, so in the safer parts of Brooklyn it should be not more than this number; and it is lower than average for US.

And 6 is actually an artifact , erroneous number because...

> http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/c...

...according to FBI report, Westlake does not report offenses anymore to FBI (ad city-data uses the FBI report).

> Well, for a start you don't pick out the one with the highest crime rate.

> That map demonstrates that Elyria is an extreme outlier, even for the area, much less for the country as a whole.

No it is not. Extreme outlier is East Cleveland, a suburb of Cleveland.

> You got busted, dude.

No I am not, because 325 is slightly above average crime level in the US.

No matter how you bend data, cherry pick data, preferentially choose tiny white affluent suburbs, NYC, a quintessentially big American city is not crime-ridden, especially if you do not venture into the hoods.


You can spin as hard as you want, but the fact remains that people with families move to the suburbs for what they see as quality of life reasons.

Besides crime, people want to have yards for their kids to play in, rather than some littered public park full of drunks and discarded hypodermic needles.

They want their kids to be able to have bedrooms of their own.

They want to own a car (with the concommitant freedom to travel as they wish, when they wish) without paying outrageous parking fees (if parking is even available).

They want to have a kitchen and dining room for family gatherings.

They want any number of things that are either exorbitantly expensive or flat unobtainable in urban environments.

The key takeaway here is that you don't get to choose for other people.

They move to the suburbs because that's where they want to live.

I realize that this conflicts with your opinion on how people ought to live, but that's how it is. Sorry.




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