One problem that a lot of people have is starting some new athletic-type-thing too quickly. Standing is similar. Do an hour a day for a month. Then do two hours a day. Your body adjusts very slowly, but does adjust.
(I have this problem whenever I start running after a long break. My cardio system is in relatively good shape from cycling. But the muscles used by running aren't. So I end up with shin splits after the first run. You have to start at an insanely low intensity: walk 20 minutes, run 30 seconds. For a month. Add 10% a week after that.)
For standing, HN recommended an anti-fatigue mat. I got one yesterday, and so far, I am noticing less fatigue while standing. Who would have guessed.
Zero drop shoes (altra for my front feet specifically) and Vibram five fingers cured my shin splints. As soon as I switched I went from one mile = deadly pain to 3 miles feeling like an easy walk. Obviously I have some mechanical issue but if a funny looking pair of shoes works... Well great =)
I can vouch for Vibram FF, or even better, straight-barefoot. I was always told that I had "weak ankles" by doctors as a teenager and I was never able to run more than 3-4 miles regularly without developing extreme shin splints and knee pain that would leave me barely able to walk and require several weeks, if not months, of recovery.
In 2010 I started wearing Vibram Five Fingers exclusively. In 2011, I started wearing Huaraches [1] which are even more minimalist than Vibram FFs (and a lot more natural--when I'm not barefoot, I wear huaraches), then in 2012 I went straight barefoot.
In September of 2012, I ran 17 miles non-stop [2], barefoot (all types of surfaces, including rain). And note that I went from running on average 2-5 miles a day to deciding one day that I'd just keep running.
I had never experienced such freedom and I can now run what feels like any distance, as long as I'm running barefoot (my current goal is a marathon, then an ultramarathon).
As others have mentioned, it takes time to let your body adapt. I've been using a custom-built IKEA standing desk [3] for the past year. For the past few months, I stand 8-10 hours a day at this desk while working (barefoot, of course, on a hardwood floor). But, I also walk 2-5 miles every day (~10k steps).
If you want to start standing at a desk all day, start by walking a lot more so that your body learns what it's like to be on your feet for longer periods of time. Oh, and don't just stand at the desk for 8 hours. I take a break every 2-3 hours and go for a 10-15 minute walk to keep my muscles moving.
If you go this route (which I also recommend), make sure you adjust your striking appropriately, you'll want to land mostly on the balls of your feet or your toes. Landing heel first in zero drop shoes will give you shin splints like you wouldn't believe.
I got some zero drop shoes some time ago. I've been running with a forefoot strike ever since, but with those shoes the muscles on the back of my legs start to hurt consistently about 25 minutes into the run. If I continue, the damage could take up to 2 weeks to repair before I can run again.
I still run with the zero drop shoes small distances from time to time, but it doesn't look like I'll ever be able to get the the point where I can run as fast and/or as long as with regular running shoes. Granted, I'm a relatively fast runner (usually 9km in 45min) and it may work better for lighter running.
Also, be aware that the muscles you use when running that way are very different (much more calf muscle involvement) and you need to build up to it gradually. I was told once to start off running 15% of the distance you did when heel-striking and build up gradually. Also, speaking from my personal experience, if you start to feel a calf muscle tighten up, stop IMMEDIATELY and stretch it. This may be helpful:
http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/
Note to prospective Vibram users: watch your running surface. I had a good few months with Vibrams until I got a stress fracture in the ball of my left foot. If you are going to be doing long distances on a hard surface, you need to build up very slowly or use a softer shoe.
More importantly - go to a sports shop where they have trained professionals who can adequately assess your needs, and depend on them for advice - not a stranger on the internet.
The guys at Bunchball have comfy stools. Stand then sit for a while if you get tired. I imagine the sit/stand cadence is something like pomodoro with 20 minutes up five minutes siting.
Jumping rope regularly has helped me avoid shin splints. 10 minutes once a week seems to do the trick for me (now that I can jump for 10 minutes straight -- took a bit to get there).
My desk doesn't go high enough for me to draw comfortably, so I sit down for that.
I got lazy about standing all day, and am in the building-back-up stage again. My goal is for a couple of hours everyday, eventually increasing that to 8. Currently I stand up when I feel like I'm tired of sitting down, and sit down when I'm tired of standing up.
"After two weeks, I was able to stand for about four hours a day, but I still needed to take multiple breaks."
I work as a teacher. I don't sit down much in a typical working day, so I found that sentence strange to say the least. Then I realised that I don't stand still ever in the classroom. I'm effectively walking around my patch of savannah all day like our ancestors did, occasionally sitting or squatting down to talk to students on their work.
Perhaps it is the lack of movement that is the problem?
Walking for an hour straight is so much more comfortable than standing still for even 10 minutes. Presumably because you're constantly engaging different muscles, giving the others a chance to briefly rest. Now I just have to figure out how to build some kind of treadmill desk.
I've been using standing desk for over a year at work, and the first month went similar to the way the OP described. Unlike the OP though, it was never my intention to stand all day. I stand when I feel like, and sit (on a tall chair) when feel like it (right now it is probably 70/30).
I have a bar running across the bottom of the desk 1 foot off the ground. I can put my foot on it, so I can bend my legs and move around quite a bit.
Trying to just stand stationary all day, which appears to be what the OP was trying to, sounds very uncomfortable and counter productive. The whole point (at least for me) isn't to not-sit-all-day, but to able to move legs through the day.
My thought exactly. I've been using a standing desk for over a year now, yet I'm hardly standing still for more than an hour at a time. If nothing else, I go and grab a cup of water or simply just walk around the office for a minute or two.
The desk itself is electric height-adjustable which makes it easy to switch between walking/standing and sitting with the push of a button, and the monitors are mounted on arms so I can move them to the correct height when I switch positions.
It took some getting used to before I could walk for extended periods of time, but now I don't really think about it anymore, I just start walking and before I know it, an hour has gone by. That said, I have found that it's hard to really concentrate while walking. If I find myself in the middle of a particularly difficult programming problem, I'll often need to sit down before I can really think about it.
But there's a lot of time throughout the day where I'm not doing anything that's super mentally challenging, like reading HN :) or catching up on email or finishing light programming tasks, and I try to walk as much as possible during those times.
At this point I typically walk between 1-3 hours total per day, and end up alternating between walking/standing/sitting every hour or so. Sometimes after sitting for a while I find myself starting to feel sleepy, switching to walking at this point usually wakes me right back up and keeps me going. Not sure, why, probably a circulation thing.
The setup wasn't particularly cheap to put together (though you could certainly do it for a lot cheaper than I did), but after a year I've concluded the cost was totally worth it considering how many hours of my life I spend (and will continue to spend) in front of a computer.
What you need is a standing desk that adopts to YOU, not the other way round. Here's the one I have been using for approx. 2 years now and I can tell you I will NEVER go back to a sitting-only desk: http://www.ergotron.com/ProductsDetails/tabid/65/PRDID/320/l...
There are variations of this model available, but the main points are:
1. Screen (even if laptop) and keyboard/mouse are separated so everything is exactly at the correct height (= ergonomic, won't become a pain!)
2. You can pull up (and push down) the whole thing very easily, with just 1 hand/no force: This means you can change whenever you feel the slightest issue. Changing every 10 minutes easily becomes a healthy no-brainer routine.
This is what happens when people follow recipes blindly for something that isn't cooking: doomed to fail.
First, I'm guessing the author's standing desk was simply not the right height for him. The "$22 Ikea" is a fixed height and I suspect he never adjusted it to something comfortable, customized for his height.
Second, as someone said earlier, he approached it like it was some kind of marathon - he planned to stand at the thing all day, right away. You actually have to work up to using a standing desk -- alternate sitting and standing and slowly increase the amount of standing time.
I'd like to preempt the inevitable posting of the link to the Cornell article about standing desks. It's a complete, 180-degree misrepresentation of the study it claims to be based on.
1. It seems to be referring to a very old version of the Cornell page. For instance, it says the Cornell page only cites one source. The current page cites seven sources in the references section, and one in the body of the article.
2. The one source cited in the old version of the page was concentrating on musculoskeletal disorders. It found benefits to using an electric height-adjustable work surface. The EHAW resulted in a minor increase in musculoskeletal discomfort, and a substantial decrease in the severity of upper body musculoskeletal symptoms. The Cornell article does not contradict this. It says that they have found that standing desks increase the risk of some musculoskeletal problems such as carpal tunnel syndrome. Together, these are just saying that standing can help with some kinds of musculoskeletal problems, and harm with others. The Cornell article is also considering a wider range of potential problems than the EHAW study considered, and has the benefit of being written 8 years after the EHAW study and so can take into account subsequent research.
The bottom line is that sitting too much is bad for you, and standing too much is bad for you. That's the conclusion of the Cornell article, and nothing in the EHAW study (which was done by the same people that did the Cornell article) contradicts that.
2 weeks doesn't seem like that long to persist with a major change like swapping from sitting all day to standing. Would be interesting to hear from someone who persisted with it for longer to see if they were able to adjust fully. I have a desk that is adjustable from sitting to standing and enjoy it as it lets me work longer without my back annoying me.
In regards to the 135 degree suggestion, I've found this doesn't work well for me, my lower back hurts, and also it encourages me to stick my chin forward which puts pressure on your neck. Could be a result of body shape or specifics of my setup though.
One more data point: Made the switch about two years ago here. At the time I was already fairly athletic, with normal BMI and in my mid twenties.
The first two weeks were incredibly difficult. After that you could feel the adaption kicking in, and by about a month I was able to stand for six hours at a time - punctuated by the usual trips to the kitchen and toilet several times per day of course.
Forget getting into the zone in this time. Compared with my peers, I would say I'm fast to adapt physically to new 'stresses' (from weight training and running in my experience), so I would judge this to be towards the 'best case' end of the scale.
Definitely agree that the author of this post threw in the towel too early. Standing for a full day is no mean feat. You wouldn't expect to run a marathon after two weeks of training having never run before.
I haven't tried a standing desk for programming yet (it's on my todo-list).
But I did have a summer job as a student where I was standing in front of a computer all day, registering incoming packages in a warehouse.
My feet hurt for the first few days, but after some experimentation with different footwear (I ended up with a pair of orthopedic sandals as the most comfortable), a soft mat to stand on, and a 5-10 minute break each hour, I had no issues after the first couple of weeks.
I'm pretty sure that moving is better than either standing or sitting. Since walking around isn't very compatible with working on a PC, I expect that an adjustable desk is pretty much the best we can do. Along with switching between standing and sitting, frequent breaks, and suitable footwear.
I bought a motorized adjustable standing desk. I don't stand the same amount of time each day, but typically at least two hours, and no more than about 6. I eased into standing gradually. When I first got it, I only had it "up" for maybe half an hour at a time.
I also don't strictly stand still. I'm always moving around a bit, even if it's just from one side of the desk to the other (it's a Geekdesk Max with a large (78.75" wide) desktop).
Back when I got a standing desk two years ago, it took me about two weeks to adjust, standing about 5 hr a day. It was mostly my feet that started to hurt back then, and I don't have a particularly strong back or good posture.
Nowadays I'm regularly on my feet for about 10 hours a day and just dont think about it that much. I do often walk around the office and constantly shift my weight around, which helps.
It took me two months to get used to my desk. Still, I was only able to work for 6 hours in a day when I used it. I spent a lot of time in the shop, it was where all my friends were and we would hang out there, so it wasn't uncommon to be there for 12-14 hours. I used a stool, or got away from my desk and did something else.
I agree with you about the neck for the 135 degree thing.
People have different bodies. For this guy, a standing desk did not work out. For others, it does.
Personally, I am more focused when standing. I feel more active and less likely to get bored. Also, I frequently walk a few steps when I need to think about something.
I used to have my brightest ideas when I stood up from my chair to go to the toilet, or while showering in the morning. Now I just walk a few steps from my desk and look out the window, or get a glass of water. This keeps my body busy while my mind is churning on something. It works for me.
I used a standing desk for about ten years, starting because of back problems where I couldn't sit down for more than 15 minutes. I also had a drafting stool (with a back) so that I could sit or stand. Some days I mostly stood, some days mostly sat, some very mixed. Now I have a different job and sit at a desk all day. I can't say I miss my standing desk except for its size (4' X 8') -- it was unmatched for working with two or three people.
> One community in Okinawa, Japan has one fifth the risk of colon and breast cancer and lives seven years longer than the average American.
I like it when sources are not cited, and when you compare a community to a country (sample size significance problem??) and when you forget completely about the recent scandal in Japan of having people dead for long (like people at 130-140 years old...) still registered as living (these points in the data make the average move very sensitively).
Japan's data for life expectancy is a joke, seriously.
I had similar experience but with much easier solution to my troubles. I've bought bar-stool, in fact i have 2 of them - one actual bar stool and another one more like adjustable bar chair with nice leather finish.
So I have 3 options to switch between - staying in front of my standing table, sit on hard stool or better to say lean on it a little bit, sitting on the edge, or sitting on comfy leather chair. This way if I am in a flow I can work however long I need, switchig chairs.
The "$22 of ikea parts" approach looks like a torture device to me.
The tiniest tweak to standing desk height can make a big difference in resulting posture and comfort. (My exact height preference even changes from day to day, perhaps due to varying shoes or recent levels of other activity.)
It's not strictly modal, "when doing X use height Y" – I just find my posture preference changing slightly over time.
I suppose long writing/coding is a bit more active/upright (higher), while long reading/browsing tends to involve a forward or alternating side-lean (lower). Shoes, time of day, and other recent exertion seem to be factors as well. And I alternate to seated, for hours or sometimes days at a time, for variety.
I suspect I'm more likely to start a new project or do many small independent tasks while standing, and more likely to work-through a lengthier, involved task while seated... but I haven't kept careful notes.
I haven't experimented with a standing desk, but it seems like you can develop a tolerance overtime, so that eventually, you'll stop thinking about the discomfort when you're trying to concentrate. I can see where the author is coming from though. I tried to read a book when I was cycling in the gym, but it didn't go so well because I ended up spliting my concentration with the book and exercise. No gains in either activity unless I sacrificed the other. However, standing is a low-intensity physical activity, more similar to walking, so I think that overtime you'd just get used to it. It becomes a healthy active habit like taking the stairs everyday.
I built myself a standing desk and used it for a couple of months. It was my feet, not my back, that convinced me to go back to sitting down. I suppose if I'd invested in some kind of special flooring or even more comfortable shoes, I might still be using the standing desk, but I don't know.
What I'd really like is some way to sit on an exercise bike (I believe they're called "stationary bikes" in some places) and still be able to use a keyboard and mouse. Not sure how that would work, but if I could figure it out I'd be rich and skinny before you know it!
There was a walking desk near my desk at Google. I found the walking desk, with a large monitor for my laptop to be ideal when I had to catch up on email and reading. Typing while walking was not as good.
Since I normally work from a home office my wife has been trying to talk me into buying one. I probably would not use it enough because I have four different working locations at home.
One more thing: a "get up and walk timer" is a good idea. On days when I don't use a timer, I don't feel as physically comfortable at the end of a long work day.
Substitute "walking" for "standing" and all these troubles go away. I have walked many 8 hour shifts with only a lunch break in between. A walking desk is not much more difficult to make. Get a treadmill from Craigslist and then find a bookshelf to put the monitor on. Or stack some boxes on a desk and put the monitor on top at eye level. Or you could even attach the monitor to the wall with an inexpensive wall mount.
I used to be able to stand for 6-8 hours a day back when I worked at a coffee shop, but I can't do it anymore. Maybe it's just because I got out of the habit, or because I got older, but standing in place in the same position for more than a couple hours is exhausting.
On the other hand, walking around for hours isn't bad at all, so maybe there's something specific about standing still that creates more exertion?
In college, when I worked as a cook at Waffle House, I'd frequently do double-shifts, 16-hour days standing. But it's a lot of movement, you're constantly moving from the food stock to the griddle.
My father is on his feet all day. He delivers bread to grocery stores. He is constantly speed-walking. He usually has about a 10 minute drive between stores, where he of course sits in his truck, and spends about 45 minutes in each store.
Now that I work from home, sometimes I take a shower to think. That's only tangentially related.
I thought the hotness was the treadmill desk. Why would someone want to stand around all day?
The fix for this (and most things that office people think they have discovered) is well known in the working world. You just need a tall stool to slouch on from time to time. There is a place between sitting and standing.
I had a standing desk for a while, and I also had to have a stool. Actually, I built the stool, because I didn't have any money at the time, but I did have plenty of scrap wood. I then had to move to a new city, so I no longer have access to the shop where I used to keep my desk.
I sort of miss that stool. It was terrifying to sit on, which I think of as a feature. Nobody else in the shop ever wanted to sit on it, so they could never steal it from me.
135 degrees would never work with me, I battle all day to not stay in that position because it makes me sleepy.
When I see his photo I think I can watch a movie in that position but working I doubt it, I need to feel more "engaged" with the keyboard, the mouse, the screen, if that makes sense.
I've been doing the 135-degree thing for many years, much like the picture there, but without the foot rest. I make sure to squirm around on occasion, and I get up and stretch and walk with the dog regularly. So far so good.
Are those Markus chairs from IKEA really comparable to the ilk of Herman Miller et al.? I'm wondering if the road trip to try one out is worthwhile. Please share your experiences if you own one.
The herman miller chairs offer far better adjustability than the IKEA Markus chair. The Markus is a good chair for its price, but they're not comparable.
Although Herman miller chairs are more adjustable I find that the lack of a head rest causes people to fall into really bad habits. At work we have very nice Herman Miller chairs without headrests and you see most people slumped back in their chairs with their necks craned forward. I have the Markus at home and because it had a head rest it allows me to stay comfortably in a position where my head is properly balanced over my spine.
Assuming that not everybody in that situation [1] a) is American b) is fat c) has enough 'cheap crap' to sell to make up the difference, a much more achievable solution is "park/get off public transport half a mile earlier than you normally do and walk the difference". If you can't afford the extra 10 minutes out of bed, or the parking bit is impractical, take 15 minutes out of your lunch break and walk around. Bonus in each case is you get to discover more about the local area in which you work.
[1] speaking as a Londoner, living in a modest suburban flat about an hour's journey from where I work, your suggestion is financially impractical, even if I sold all my possessions. Even if it were practical, I'm sure you recognise that not everyone could do this simultaneously.
I do recognise that not everyone is in a situation where they could move closer to work. But I'm guessing that a good proportion of people are. There are outliers, such as London.
Let's not forget - HN is not representative of the general population.
My apologies if this seems like a troll, it is not.
It is blazingly obvious to everyone outside of North American that their health woes are down to a reliance on cars, cities built to accommodate cars and an overconsumption of sugar.
It is incredible that they haven't managed to figure this out yet.
There is truth in what you say, but you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If the wording of your comments makes it seem like you're trolling, maybe it's time to adjust your wording?
As adestefan observes, the problem is not confined to America nowadays either.
Well that is true, I have experienced it myself now and then. However, I've discovered a special technique I use in those situations. I find it's very effective, much better than being rude. I'll let you into the secret if you like. Ready? Here it is:
I drive to work and I'm much more fit than most people on HN. Why? I care.
Living downtown would cost over double my mortgage and significantly reduce my quality of life. I have access to trails and silent nights by living 14-20 minutes from work depending on traffic.
I also eat real foods and avoid most processed food and sugar. When I have a sugar craving, I buy some fruit.
If "walking" is your only form of exercise, you may curb obesity, but you'll still be far from perfect health.
The human body is an incredible contraption, and there is almost always room for improvement and growth. Get stronger, faster, and more durable.
(I have this problem whenever I start running after a long break. My cardio system is in relatively good shape from cycling. But the muscles used by running aren't. So I end up with shin splits after the first run. You have to start at an insanely low intensity: walk 20 minutes, run 30 seconds. For a month. Add 10% a week after that.)
For standing, HN recommended an anti-fatigue mat. I got one yesterday, and so far, I am noticing less fatigue while standing. Who would have guessed.