Maybe here they don't, but I think generally people see things your way.
I don't, and I didn't, even before I got into 'tech' and started reading HN. For me, the statement 'life outside of work is more meaningful than work' just doesn't make sense.
While I do treat 'work time' slightly differently than 'free time', the difference is not so great for me. It's mostly to keep some ritual and prevent weeks turning into long blurs.
In fact, I've never really treated 'work' as something so discrete. In high school, as soon as I figured out the 'tricks' to not getting kicked out of school and not failing classes, I spent most of my time doing what I wanted. I could skip many classes and engage in the few that interested me. And I had loads of time and energy left to learn stuff that I wanted to learn. Often I could make a deal with teachers to not go to class because when I was present, I was active and engaged, and I treated them like, well, just people, not bosses.
In university, there were less hoops to jump through, and there was more freedom, but once again I skipped classes I didn't care for (while making sure that I'd still have a decent grade and participate in group work), and actively engaged in the fun classes. Despite my absence, my targeted interested usually meant that I was one of people that the professors 'knew', rather than just a a face in the crowd.
And now, as a freelancer, I do make a point to set aside blocks of time for work, but for the most part I primarily try to make sure that I enjoy whatever I'm doing. Every once in a while a project feels like a chore, but for the most part I can choose the projects or the parts of projects that I enjoy or that I learn from.
Most of the time 'work' doesn't feel different from 'life outside work'. I love talking about my work and I'm baffled by my friends who make a point of actively avoiding the topic on a Friday pub night. I occasionally work in the weekend, but it doesn't feel like I'm 'losing' any of my weekend because of this. I occasionally take on projects that pay shit but are fun or helpful, and 'subsidise' this with bigger, often less fun projects.
Meanwhile throughout high school and college I saw classmates go to every class no matter the value, diligently do all the exercises 'just because', and complain about how it all sucked. Working as a contractor, I see colleagues drag themselves into work on Monday after a rough weekend of 'outside work life', and joke on a Wednesday about how it's almost Friday. And complain about how much work sucks.
I do get that not everyone has the freedom to find work that they enjoy, but what I don't get is that so many people do have that freedom, and quite a good safety net (especially here in Europe), but don't exercise it.
The happiest people I've known were generally the ones that didn't make a strict separation between work and 'life', but instead found work that didn't feel like work most of the time. It took a lot of creativity, effort and uncertainty to get there, but the results were worth it.
EDIT: I do realize that OP acknowledges this, so perhaps this should not have been a reply. apologies.
Not everyone enjoys their work. It's a sad reality. Most of us are just lucky enough to keep a monthly paycheck in our chosen fields at a rate that is almost a living wage.
Having said that, and I don't mean this as a slight to you or your particular lifestyle, do you have a significant other or children? This is probably a key question when talking about work/life balance. Because, as with all things, it's very important to strike a balance.
Generally when you're young and have nobody else but you to feed, your work life balance probably looks like WORK/life. Then, when you get married but before kids show up it looks more like WORK/LIFE. Then when kids show up it's work/LIFE. Then, hopefully it remains work/life for a long time and as you age it becomes work/LIFE.
I'm middle-aged and I've discovered that for me, I no longer identify with my job. I'm not what I do as far as work goes. It's gotten to the point that when I meet new people, I feel kind of awkward asking them what they do, knowing full well, the social norm means, "what do you do for a living?" I generally answer that questions with, "I'm a husband and a father...that's what I do.".
No offense taken. I do not have children and currently no SO, and I do realize that this makes a big difference. As I mentioned, I do understand that not everyone has the luxury of finding 'nice' work. What I said applies mainly to those that DO have this luxury. I just think a lot of people, especially in Western Europe, have this luxury and don't use it.
Shouldn't the knowledge that your freedom is likely to diminish as you get older actually motivate one to not lock into a particular job directly post-college, but instead do everything to ensure that you're on a right 'track'? It just seems so important to make sure that the thing you do with most of your productive time is actually something you enjoy...
As for work/life balance: I'm by no means a workaholic most of the time. I work to save a bit, and I keep a low financial profile, and as a result I could potentially get by (currently) on even just two days of work a week. The reasons why I've worked hard were generally 1) saving/pension, 2) passionate about a project, or 3) saving to take significant time off to explore (which in turn often offered me new avenues of revenue or fulfllment)
But to provide some context. My main inspiration has come from a somewhat unusual childhood and the unusual lives of the adults that I grew up around, especially my parents. They went 'off the beaten path' early in life: young parents with three young children off to work in a developing nation (and before that basically volunteering). I believe this choice has been crucial in their path. It resulted in years of poverty and uncertainty, but they were young and happy, and found they didn't really need that much. And here in western europe, we have a pretty good welfare system for the real emergencies.
As a result, they developed something of an entrepreneurial/adventurous spirit and never quite got back to normal, even though they've been 'home' for the past decade.
Their entire approach to life just seems... different, and not primarily because of personality, but because they never went for the 'default'. They never lived above their means. They learned to be happy with very little.
My father has a 'regular' job nowadays, but it's something he's passionate about, and there has always been a certain fluidity in how he treats work and the rest of life. My mother started a business a few years ago (shop) and suddenly had to learn everything that comes with that.
What I always remember most is that despite growing up relatively poor, and despite a relative lack of security, despite serious illness and hardship, and despite a background that isn't all that great, they're among the most happy people I know. And I think it's primarily because their whole life has been an adventure that they faced together, with us, the kids, in tow. And I've met too many people like them to think they're just a lucky exception.
That said, I do not mean to imply that it is the only valid approach, or that this is an option for everyone. It's just that I'm baffled by how many people don't even try.
(also, as I'm getting older I'm becoming more and more convinced that having a family is one of the most gratifying things you can have in life, and at least something I deeply respect. I'll probably get me one of those eventually even if it does mean losing some 'freedom' :) )
I have to clarify one thing for you though. Having a family IS extremely gratifying but it doesn't come at the expense of freedom. Simply put, your priorities change. What may seem like a loss of freedom to you now, will probably become less and less important to you as you take on a family.
There is something immensely gratifying in doing work that you're also passionate about..don't get me wrong. I'm just saying that for a lot of people I know, a job is simply a means to an end. That end being, putting food on the table to feed your family and if you're lucky, your SO can stay home with the kids for a while (which I was fortunate to be able to provide for). I wouldn't say that I'm passionate about my work. I enjoy it but it's not who I am. I don't identify with it anymore. I identify with how my children are as people and I identify with my relationships with others. The old adage is true, I will never say to myself (on my deathbed) that I'd wish I'd spent more time in the office...
> I have to clarify one thing for you though. Having a
> family IS extremely gratifying but it doesn't come at the
> expense of freedom. Simply put, your priorities change.
> What may seem like a loss of freedom to you now, will
> probably become less and less important to you as you take
> on a family.
Hmm. I'm glad this is true for you. It's certainly not true for me (or most parents I'm close friends with).
Don't get me wrong, I love my wife and daughter and wouldn't trade them in. But I have mourned my adventures lost and I expect I will continue to do so.
It's certainly also true that emotionally well-balanced people don't dwell too much on the impossible, and I strive to find joy in the very different opportunities parenthood presents. I also have found my priorities adjust with partnership and parenthood, so some adventures no longer have the same allure.
But I would never counsel unattached people that parenthood doesn't entail dramatic loss of freedom. That just sounds like crazy talk to this parent.
Rather, I'd say: parenthood can be wonderful! But I sure recommend getting your fill of adventure before embarking on reproductively oriented sexual activity.
Interesting. Maybe it's all about changes in priority throughout life. I feel frustrated to see so many of those around my age settle for and into something that perhaps at a later time would be fine, but just seems like a waste currently.
I'm still pretty young, but I already notice how priorities change. I feel less of a need to be part of a 'clique' than a few years ago, for example. But I'm happy that in my college years I joined a student organisation and had all the 'clique' I needed, because I'm pretty sure it would've felt like something I'd missed out on otherwise.
My frustrations don't primarily stem from a belief that there is one 'path' that makes everyone happy, but primarily from the belief that, living in the richest part of the world at a time where we're still doing quite well (Holland/Germany/etc.), it's such a waste to settle for less than something that makes you happy. And yet many of my peers do just that. I often try to think of ways to change that, while being mindful that my path to happiness does not apply to everyone (or I try to, anyways. Plenty of youthful arrogance left in me!).
Anyways, thanks for the advice/perspective. I'm sure that my priorities will change significantly as I age, and I try to be mindful of that fact.
People avoid talking about work on Fridays because for the most part it boring to listen to. That's not to say interesting things don't happen at work but for someone that's not directly involved making or missing say a major project deadline is irrelevant to them. And the specific's of designing a new CPU / Space Probe / Power Supply rarely interests someone in say Marketing.
Sure after a few years you may pick up a few generally interesting story's, but there rare and people only want to listen to those story's once.
That's true. But what this means is that I actively try to hold back from talking about work to avoid being a bore... but I still want to! The people I know that actively avoid it, often avoid because they just don't care for their job.
I don't, and I didn't, even before I got into 'tech' and started reading HN. For me, the statement 'life outside of work is more meaningful than work' just doesn't make sense.
While I do treat 'work time' slightly differently than 'free time', the difference is not so great for me. It's mostly to keep some ritual and prevent weeks turning into long blurs.
In fact, I've never really treated 'work' as something so discrete. In high school, as soon as I figured out the 'tricks' to not getting kicked out of school and not failing classes, I spent most of my time doing what I wanted. I could skip many classes and engage in the few that interested me. And I had loads of time and energy left to learn stuff that I wanted to learn. Often I could make a deal with teachers to not go to class because when I was present, I was active and engaged, and I treated them like, well, just people, not bosses.
In university, there were less hoops to jump through, and there was more freedom, but once again I skipped classes I didn't care for (while making sure that I'd still have a decent grade and participate in group work), and actively engaged in the fun classes. Despite my absence, my targeted interested usually meant that I was one of people that the professors 'knew', rather than just a a face in the crowd.
And now, as a freelancer, I do make a point to set aside blocks of time for work, but for the most part I primarily try to make sure that I enjoy whatever I'm doing. Every once in a while a project feels like a chore, but for the most part I can choose the projects or the parts of projects that I enjoy or that I learn from.
Most of the time 'work' doesn't feel different from 'life outside work'. I love talking about my work and I'm baffled by my friends who make a point of actively avoiding the topic on a Friday pub night. I occasionally work in the weekend, but it doesn't feel like I'm 'losing' any of my weekend because of this. I occasionally take on projects that pay shit but are fun or helpful, and 'subsidise' this with bigger, often less fun projects.
Meanwhile throughout high school and college I saw classmates go to every class no matter the value, diligently do all the exercises 'just because', and complain about how it all sucked. Working as a contractor, I see colleagues drag themselves into work on Monday after a rough weekend of 'outside work life', and joke on a Wednesday about how it's almost Friday. And complain about how much work sucks.
I do get that not everyone has the freedom to find work that they enjoy, but what I don't get is that so many people do have that freedom, and quite a good safety net (especially here in Europe), but don't exercise it.
The happiest people I've known were generally the ones that didn't make a strict separation between work and 'life', but instead found work that didn't feel like work most of the time. It took a lot of creativity, effort and uncertainty to get there, but the results were worth it.
EDIT: I do realize that OP acknowledges this, so perhaps this should not have been a reply. apologies.