I've had a felony for over 8 years now, and have been working as a developer almost the entire time. I've only been asked to disclose that information once, and I did. While the company had questions, they didn't seem to care very much (note: I don't recommend telling anyone. If you're a great employee and a mistake from your youth discounts you from a job, it's a lose-lose. But I did tell, so... ).
College? They cared. I would have had to sit through review boards and go through a lot of extra hoops. So I never went. That's right, I'm a felon with no college degree.
Life is harder. Your paper trail isn't worth anything, so you have to create your public image (link to the SO podcast about blogging?). Let your accomplishments speak for themselves. Be a part of the community. Give back to the community. Get to know people through helping others. Get jobs through recommendations. You may not be able to work at BigCo, I don't think I can. But so many companies are small, I've found it doesn't matter.
You won't ever have to lie on a resume if you build yourself up in the right way.
* And please email me, seriously, if _anyone_ has questions. So many mundane things are a felony, and people need to understand that it isn't a life ending label before they jump to permanent solutions. My probation officer told me, paraphrased "You'll be surprised who else has a felony. They will probably be inclined to give you a chance. So make sure you have a job next visit.".
I can "ditto" most of that. I've had a federal felony conviction for computer fraud (against an ex-employer) for over 10 years now and have been employed for most of that time. I was terminated as soon as my case hit the news media, but I was able to find contract work with friends before my sentencing. I was able to pay my restitution in full, which really sucked financially, but was a great feeling and something I'm still proud to tell people. Not long after my probation ended, they offered to hire me full-time at a significant raise. They never did a background check.
Since then I survived two corporate acquisitions, multiple new bosses, new CEOs, etc. Every time I sweated it out waiting to see if my background would come up. I actually heard about conversations with two incoming CEOs about me and both basically responded "he's paid his debts" or something similar. They didn't really care as long as I was trouble-free since then and had been working hard.
I finally got laid off with quite a few others after almost 10 years there. I have a few different friends that know my background that would love to hire me for their growing startups, but instead I finally started my own mobile app company and have grown it to almost paying all of our bills. In the app store, nobody even needs to knows your name.
You can look at some of my post history here for advice, but in general, you need to expand your circle of friends as much as possible and let them know you are looking for work. Volunteer at things and go to meetups and developer user groups. There will always be people and companies that will refuse to hire you, but there are a decent percentage that will hire you. You just need to increase the number of people you know and the number of potential job openings.
I should also add that I've had almost no issues volunteering for many different organizations that require background checks. I just disclose my background and write an explanation. It sucks every time, but I've never been turned down. I've coached sports at the YMCA, led scouts, taught Sunday school for kids, etc. Every one of those has built my personal character references as well.
I also made a point of being very active online with my real name. Now when someone Googles me, they have to dig through many pages of material to find any press coverage of my conviction.
Just hang it there and keep chipping away at it. I used to think about my conviction every single day. Now I can go a week or more without even remembering it.
:) These are the types of posts I was hoping for when I created this thread. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this -both of you. It's just been really shitty to think about lately as far as my future is concerned. I am at a point where I'm beginning to question whether or not the choices I am making now are worth the investment of time (or not) before it's too late to change course. your experiences give me a modicum of hope which serves to reinforce my initial belief that everything I have been doing isn't a complete waste of time.
There's a paucity of information about these circumstances (compu fraud + compu pro) available online and most of the information available is presented from accounts of felons who are not in the same boat as I am.
I feel your case and I can't imagine how hard it is. Though being a developer gives you more opportunities and freedom than you think you have. All you have to do is to be amazing at what you do. You made the mistake once, you paid you dues, so life goes on. I agree with the parent post -- you should build a great online presence to bury the past, to prove that you are a new person.
I once worked with a friend I made online. He's a great designer. I refered him to another good friend for some work, and this other friend found out the designer had been on the news for a felony a few years back ( long story short, he pretty much used his design/photoshop skills and got into trouble with the laws). His case got cleared afterward, but searching for his name on Google still returns the articles from the past.
My other friend didn't work with the guy because of this, but in the end, my designer friend is still happy because he got his life in order. He's a great guy and he didn't let his past impact him too much. He even helped me when I needed some money to survive, he was there to send me some work for the badly needed few hundred bucks.
Good luck. Life is too short to worry too much about the past. Learn new skills, make new friends, become an awesome developer to create more values for society. Look at rappers like JayZ or 50Cents for inspirations. They were put in jails, shots multiple times, and yet they are hugely successful entrepreneurs now.
If you're good, people can't ignore you for long. Email me your resume, I always look for good developers to connect.
It will be hard at times. That's just the way things are. But there are definitely ways to make things work. I think the odds of getting a decent job with strangers are pretty low, but the more time passes, the easier it is for them to consider it a "youthful indiscretion". I've tried really hard to just suck it up and explain everything as how I made a mistake but took full responsibility and did everything I could to make it right.
I've mentioned on other threads that every single time I bring up my background, people have stories about other people they know or coworkers with criminal records. I have two friends with vehicular manslaughter convictions (one a DUI) and both hold decent jobs in the IT field. It hasn't been easy for them either, but they've fought their way back into the field with help from friends.
While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter, that doesn't need to be the end of the story.
For myself as an entrepreneur looking for great developers, I don't give a whit about some dalliances from your youth. In fact, if the exploit was great enough, it might even be a selling point for your creativity and technical skill.
Be up front about who you are, and look for startups that will appreciate your talent and skill, and might even enjoy hearing some of the stories you've undoubtedly amassed.
Don't go for a job where you have to hide (or worse, lie about) your past. You'll be looking over your shoulder and stressed out, when you should be enjoying your work and finding fulfillment.
While some larger corporations might not let you through the HR filter
I've worked for quite a few large corporations i.e Fortune 50 and not a single one has done a police record check. Unless you are applying for Boeing, Lockheed Martin, NSA or something similar it frankly is none of their business.
This is not really true. This tells me you have not worked in or gone through the hiring process in at least the last decade for mid-level management or below?
A criminal background check has become routine and commonplace. An industry survey I saw was something like 93% of all respondents said they executed criminal checks [0].
Alot of HR people are even pulling credit reports. This requires your permission per the Fair Credit Reporting Act, of course. A criminal background check does not although it is "courteous" to provide a consent form. The legality requiring consent probably varies by state but by providing a name, address, and SSN you have probably already given implicit consent. Criminal justice records are a matter of public record. Opening sealed records, (such as divorce proceedings, convictions as a minor, etc) is something else entirely.
In some states workers have the right to request a copy of the information and the company that provided it if it is used as the basis for denial for hire or promotion. If the company uses inhouse staff to do the background check there is no such obligation; kind of a loophole if you ask me.
In the past year some clients have even asked for a drug test.
I don't mind criminal record checks. Credit reports I draw the line because it has a negative impact on my life and unless I have some fiduciary duty it is simply irrelevant. However, if I'm bankrupt, in dire financial straits, etc I could see having some hesitation in letting me run the books. Still, I quite simply will not tolerate health checks and I suggest no one reading this does either.
I don't think this is true. The gist of your comment is valuable, in that lots of places don't background check, but checks are in fact pretty common. We see a good cross section of the industry (we're consultants) and I wouldn't be surprised if as many as half did checks.
Quite true. I worked for large digital agencies for much of my career until now, and while we may or may not do our own background checks (I don't know since I was not in HR), I've had a number of clients in the financial sector over the years. If I had been unable to pass a background check with a client, it would have been detrimental to my position at the agency, to say the least.
Unfortunately true. I've encountered that problem where I am now and have had to sign so many agreements with legal dept heads from other agencies that I've lost count. My employer (work in NPO sector) has really assumed some really huge risks by having my on board. The approach for me being exposed to certain at-risk data (at my work there are ssn from clients, login credentials to affiliated networks ran by my state) is routinely addressed by sign NDA as a group of lawyers threaten to destroy me if anything should go awry.
The director of the agency where I work has been tremendously instrumental in arguing and supporting me in these instances.
Ignoring the merits of this statement, they certainly think it is their business. Even running credit checks on job seekers is common practice now. If you worked in white-collar positions at multiple Fortune 50 companies and never had a background check done, that's definitely not typical.
Though it is impossible to quantify, I think as a society we're probably starting to lose a lot of potentially great second acts from people who made early mistakes due to the way everything is tracked, monitored, and easily searchable these days.
I wish I had some good practical advice on this subject, but my only advice would be things already said here: freelance, or stick to companies small enough that there isn't much HR bureaucracy in place yet.
FWIW, in my teenage years (I'll be 40 this year) I did quite a lot of "freelance, unofficial security work" and I know a lot of other people who did, some of whom are relatively famous (within certain communities anyway) who did the same and pretty much the only difference between them/me and you is not getting caught, or being located in a jurisdiction that didn't care enough to press charges at the time. So good luck, man.
* Freelancing & consulting could be beneficial in your situation.
* Applying to smaller companies without HR departments could also work in your favor. They probably won't have any kind of background checks or standardized lists of questions they ask everybody. Don't lie, but you don't have to volunteer info either.
Agree on freelancing and consulting. OP, you've got a (fairly) unique qualification you can trade on -- not many folks have been through what you have. That's got to be a valuable asset. I'd encourage you to go out there and wave it around rather than hope it doesn't get discovered.
This is actually a problem with how US society works.
It's in society's best interests for someone in OP's position to become a productive member of society again. But if they're eternally refused employment, education, and passport due to the background check, how is someone supposed to recover their life after that?
The problem is cultural, we need to be more forgiving of peoples' past. As more and more of the population becomes more and more searchable, this sort of relaxation is inevitable. But social change takes time.
As someone who was convicted of a felony at age 19 and immediately turned his life around (yet still suffers the consequences), I wish more people felt the way that you do. Thank you.
Sadly, the opposite will happen. There's fierce competition for a lot of jobs and a pool of job seekers full to the brim, criminal records are becoming just another qualifier employers conveniently use for filtering purposes.
I've been at several startups and never undergone a background check, to my knowledge. I've never been asked any "Have you ever..?" questions. So this is less of an issue than you might think. I get the sense companies only start doing background checks when they grow large enough to become targets for litigation.
Well, you don't have to lie on your resume or on your interview but have you considered just not mentioning it? Unless you're applying for certain types of jobs they're not going to do a background check on you, and you're unlikely to be under any obligation to disclose that you were convicted of computer fraud if you're applying for a computer related job.
Also, think about taking jobs in countries that aren't the U.S.. It might be nice to have a fresh start somewhere else, but I don't know what sort of visa troubles you'd have with your record.
Yeah, it seems to me that if you consider it irrelevant to your qualifications for your job, you should just omit it from your resume. There's a formal "job application" form that you'll have to fill out where they ask you whether they have any past convictions, but that usually comes after your interviews and you've accepted an offer.
That might be a bit surprising, but here's how it works at every company I've interviewed at: you find a job posting, you send in your resume, they call you for a phone screen and if you pass, they'll call you in for a full day of interviews. If they then make an offer that you accept, you'll finally fill out the formal paperwork.
However, if you apply to a big company job through their own HR portal, you're probably going to have to fill out the job application form when you submit your resume.
Most job applications nowadays have a clause at the end where, by signing, you give them permission to perform a background check (with no way to know if they actually will). In addition, most also state something to the effect that omission == lying. Thus, if you "forget" to mention that you were convicted, it's the same as if lying -- which, of course, is grounds for immediate termination.
The U.S. Department of State (DOS) may deny your passport application or renewal for a number of reasons, including if you:
Are in default on a repatriation or medical assistance loan
Are behind on child support payments
Are subject of certain court orders or a foreign extradition request
Were committed to a mental institution, or legally declared incompetent by a court
Were subject to a previous denial or revocation
Were issued a temporary passport for specific reasons
More detail [1][2]. Being denied the ability to leave your country, especially if you have been convicted of a crime, is a violation of your human rights. It is widely recognized, of course, that drug traffickers have no rights, and thus the US may freely discriminate.
I wonder.. technically, not having a passport doesn't prevent you from leaving the country. You can get in a boat and take off. Leaving by plane is difficult, as well as legally entering another country.
Is it actually illegal to reenter the US as a citizen without a US passport? I would hope that as a US citizen you have a right to entry and visiting a US Consulate in another country would start the process regardless of whether you are a felon.
| Is it actually illegal to reenter the US as
| a citizen without a US passport?
I've talked to the border patrol over the phone about this before (with relation to re-entering with an expired passport). As an American citizen, you can't be denied re-entry into the country. Without proper documentation, you might get tied up at the border while proving you are an American citizen (though I'm not sure what lengths they would go to to figure out if you really are a US citizen without even an expired passport though).
Exiting the US on foot at the Mexican border involves no check of any kind of documentation-- you just walk through a couple turnstiles, and a Mexican Marine may search your bag if you look suspicious.
That, of course, makes it easy to be in Tiajuana without a passport. From what I heard when I lived in San Diego, if you bring a US drivers' license, and especially if you also bring a US birth certificate, the border agents may chew you out, but they will let you into the US.
Given this, I wonder what the rationale is for denying felon's passports? I mean, if it doesn't prevent you from leaving the country or entering the country, both of which are violations of international law.
I agree with simply just not mentioning it. I know background checks are more common in the US than in Sweden, but I doubt most small companies care enough to do them. So just apply for small companies and you should be fine.
After almost 20 years in the industry my considered advice is pursue another career.
That might not be the answer you want to hear but after thinking about it a bit that's my honest advice. Here's the reasons:
- Of all the employers I've had not one of them would have hired you.
- If somehow you "snuck in" and your past came to light, you would have been fired anywhere I've worked.
- Unless I knew you really well personally (as in friends for multiple years), I wouldn't hire you, based purely on your past. It's nothing personal, you might be a great, smart person. But it's a matter of the odds; your past makes you a risk that's not worth taking unless I know you well enough to be certain that you would never do anything like that again, and there's just no way you're going to convince me of that through an interview process.
The last one is the real sticking point, because I know what it's like to be a young kid on BBSes and the internet and wanting to try to break things, etc. But even with that understanding, I still wouldn't trust you unless I knew you really well.
And that's why I'd recommend pursuing another career. And you should think about this carefully because being a convicted felon (and I'm assuming it was a felony charge) will stop you from being able to do a lot of other careers. Honestly I'd do some research on careers for people with felony convictions.
I have to respectfully disagree. At least the OP has a foot in the door in this field. Moving on to something else would mean starting at the bottom, yet having the same obstacles to overcome.
Some jobs are simply closed off. No way around it. Why hire a felon when you can hire any other equally (based off paper and salary requirements) qualified candidate? Government restrictions may preclude him as well.
If you are basing your options only on your history, then you have to find a career where your history doesn't hurt you. This means applying for jobs that felons apply for. You've done a year in jail, you know the embarassing(to society) level of education of most inmates. I don't think this is really a route you would want to consider.
Don't give up. You will have to work hard, sure. Harder than most. Which is a good quality to have when you find the right position.
To add a "soft" argument to this, OP obviously has talent/knowledge (while not enough to not get caught) in his chosen career field, instead of doing something completely different where everyone else has a headstart.
None of the companies I've worked at would have hired him, either. BUT. . .all of the companies I've worked at have been large and/or had government contracts. I find it hard to believe that he couldn't get a job at mid-sized company, or a start-up, especially if ends up with a skillset that's hard to find and not just a standard CS skillset. . .however that's defined. And based on his experience, it sounds like he would/could definitely end up with a relatively hard-to-find skillset.
OP, please do not listen to this advice. I understand it represents what might be considered the "realistic" perspective but it is not. No one is saying that it is easy.
But to pursue another career? That's ridiculous, given your apparent skill-set -- it's ludicrous.
Clearly, the parent here is wrong because there are plenty of people that have felony convictions and work in tech. So, this advice, on the face, is really horrible.
A felony is a serious matter. You may have excluded yourself from many jobs, possibly all the companies the parent has worked for; keep in mind the companies the parent has worked for must be a small subset of all the companies you could work for.
Even being completely honest and open, I think you can find a job. You may or may not have to go outside of comfort zone (moving or what have you) or, perhaps, do some work in non-security related areas of programming (or maybe not, I just mean to say if you broaden your search you increase your chances).
A felony is not good but if you tell your story, I think there are smaller companies that would take a chance on you; perhaps you'd even find potential employers, because of the nature of our industry, that will not think as negatively of your conviction as if you had been convicted of some other kind of crime.
There's a lot of fish in the sea, you don't need every one to hire you, you don't even need one of the companies the parent has worked for to hire you, you just need one of the many more that are out there to give you a chance.
Be honest, tell your story as eloquently as you can. Someone will give you a chance. I believe there are some on HN that would.
Thank you for your response. After reading many of the other responses it is nice to have this perspective here for other posters to see -- because it is very real to me.
This is essentially what someone like me encounters every time they try. It's a really unfortunate part of my reality and other posters should understand that it's not simply "just a felony" -- not when equally qualified applicants do not have any "issues" like this.
Aweee, don't feel bad for me. NBD. People like me are really good at not failing. I'm measuring with this thread before I make a decision to do something. Internet advice as a collective unit of measurement is still useful and valuable. It is a sin to ignore useful information. Every little bit helps ;)
I've also found it incredibly difficult to ask google this type of complex question. So I posted it here instead.
One of the unfair things about the U.S justice system is that not all felonies are created equal. In Virgina, if you are pulled over for driving over 80 miles per hour (even if you are on a steep hill with no one around you or if everyone else is traveling faster than you) you are charged with reckless driving, which is can be a felony or a Class 1 misdemeanor — the same category as Assault & Battery. You will recieve a $3000 dollar fine, and could be convicted of a felony if you don't hire an expensive lawyer , and/or if the judge is in a bad mood that day.
There are sections of I-15 where the speed limit is 80MPH. Does Virginia have any such high-limit stretches, such that going 1-5 over is a felony, or is it too densely populated?
In the past few years Virginia has passed laws raising the speed limit to 70 mph on some highways. [1] You would have to be traveling at least 11 m.p.h over the speed limit in order to be convicted of reckless driving.
It might seem that it is easy to avoid going this fast, but there are several reasons that you might. It is harder to feel a 10 m.p.h gap when you are traveling at high speeds, especially when the roadway is filled with insane drivers that are tailgating you and cutting you off because you are driving too slowly for their taste. Virginia also has some steep hills, which makes it easy to go to over 80 m.p.h without pressing on the accelerator. Many people also speed unconsciously when they feel stressed or angry, are listening to fast music or an exciting radio broadcast.
Depending on time of day and tail winds, I've seen dense traffic in my area that would put hundreds of vehicles above 80. It seems too low a limit for reckless driving in modern cars that can handle much higher.
We hired a guy who had recently finished 7 years in the clink. After he got out he was freelancing in a shared office space. Worked with other devs there whom we hired or knew. They vouched for him.
He's a great dev, good friend, recently finished a PhD while working full time for us. We'd have been stupid not to hire him for the mistake he made a decade ago.
If you apply to any company small enough to not have a dedicated HR department, I think there's a very good chance that it literally never comes up. Arrest record certainly isn't part of my standard interview questions. (And, in my biased opinion, working at smaller companies is a lot more fun anyway--especially for someone early in their career)
Now, more than ever, you don't need to work for someone else (as an employee). If you have the skills, you can do very well as a freelancer/consultant. The pay can be good, the work can be interesting, and they won't run a background check on you.
I have tried this approach and it has failed me. The biggest problem with being independent is landing clients who are in need of the service.
I have also tried shotgun approach via private vulnerability disclosure. At best it typically results in nothing more than 'thanks' -- but most frequent is outright ignoring, angry response, bruised egos, threats with law enforcement, and general unpleasantry. -- so I've learned to avoid doing that.
Put a way to contact you on your HN profile. You are on the frontpage and will probably get a few leads. Don't waste the opportunity to score freelance clients out of your post...
Oh? The front page? Whoo hoo! (is that hard here? it's hard on reddit) I've gone ahead done that just-in-case. I am not really here looking for active leads (though I certainly wouldn't throw away an opportunity if it presented itself as a result of this posting), but some of these responses have been really uplifting.
I am really here pinging this community for people that have been in or have dealt with the circumstances of my disposition who would like to take a moment and give some pointers. So far the response has been better than I had anticipated.
Try going to some meetups in a big city. There's a lot of work out there and if you mention you're looking for a gig, and you seem knowledgeable, people will probably refer work to you.
Social anxiety. Embarrassed by the stigma and reputation, don't really want to bump into or be noticed by any LE who may be present. Frustrations like that tend to work against me when considering doing this.
I'm slowly -very slowly and cautiously- approaching the local infosec community. For me to do that it has to be piecemeal.
I've worked for several startups in the Bay Area, and only one did anything resembling a background check. Although they wouldn't have found anything, I think something bad in my past I'm long removed from wouldn't have been a barrier. Most small company and startup jobs are founded on relationships rather than forms and policies, which is the way it should be.
If your personality, character, ambition, shared vision, portfolio or code samples, work history, or profile in the developer / startup community is well-known, I think your conviction not only wouldn't be insurmountable, I don't even think it would be a blip on the radar. If it ever was, it might even make you cool with the right founders/team.
That said, when the company you're working for gets big, you will have already likely signed something giving them blanket permission to look into you, and during an investor or acquirer's due diligence, I guess it's possible it could come up... which would suck if it's right before an equity cliff or something.
Another idea: I've also done 1099 contract work for big health insurance companies as a contract developer. Salaried employees had multiple background and credit checks because they were working with HIPAA Protected Health Information... so was I, but I not only made more money than the salaried employees, I didn't do an application, interview, background check, etc.
I think 95% of it is your attitude going in. In your head, you're probably thinking that felony convictions are the only thing on the potential employer's mind, so you're self-conscious about it. Find the right type of employer, concentrate on the relationship and the opportunity together, and it shouldn't be a concern at all. (IANAL, TINLA)
One thing you said is "I don't actively engage in or create any new projects outside of classwork and giving advice to other developers. I am kind-of stagnant and it is depressing."
Change that. Write some new and useful things, publish the code on GitHub, and run them on one of the free/cheap hosting services.
That's part of your problem: No recent achievements. Create some!
Nothing, that was my point. For OP it would make a lot of sense to found a company / consult / etc instead of working _for_ a company, to get around his felony.
The part with "worthless advice" was about the whole "oh, also be successful and happy" thing.
Any other career choice you will probably be worse off. At least in the CS world you might be able to spin it as a positive if you specialize in security. Freelance work is also an option. Assuming you are trying to get a degree to be more employable, the places that require a degree are also likely to avoid hiring you. The degree does show some measure of reform so places that hire on merit will probably like that you have a degree.
Background checks are really cheap. I've worked at really small companies that outsource most of HR and payroll to a larger company. Those places always do the background checks, don't think that smaller places won't do a background check. If you lie and they ever find out that's an instant firing.
Nobody cares at a job worth doing. Don't apply for IT departments, apply for mid to late stage startups in the bay area or other intense tech areas.
I don't know anyone who would be worried about giving you the root password to hundreds of machines because you broke more exciting rules when you were younger than we did.
Stop telling yourself that you can't have what you want, and get it!
I live on the east coast. Most of the startups around here are all looking for "interns" they do not have to pay.
I have actually been encouraged by people to move to that area (and some areas in Texas) but at this point in my life it seems like a really big change to make. When I finish school I would like to explore that option. It is something I have been seriously considering.
I'm east coast, have extra work (not security unfort), and won't run a background check on you. Are you trying to stick with security? Or does any development work suit you?
Really? You are worried about having to switch majors because you might not be employable and yet you want to be picky? If it is a language you don't know then tell them you'll freakin learn it just for the job!
Perhaps you should consider applying for positions where the skills that got you in trouble would be an asset, i.e. penetration testing, security research/consulting
I found that this field has changed significantly in the past 15 years. I got my first job through getting caught hacking in high school. But today, there are so many more applicants who are qualified, and they are coming right out of college, that the pool is large enough where the government can enforce restrictions.
To the OP, it would seem reasonable to inquire with an attorney about petitioning to have the conviction set aside. I am not a lawyer, but it seems that a restoration of rights via means of an expungement or even a Presidential pardon would be avenues likely open for you.
Thanks rietta. Unfortunately presidential pardons are difficult to get without help from a political connection.
Based on the data (http://www.justice.gov/pardon/statistics.htm) in addition to the cumulative experience of those who have turned their lives around for decades and still been denied, I made a decision to try that later when I have a better history to present in my petition.
As you can see, the odds are scary. My chances of getting one without a friend in government (or part of a lobbying body) are really slim.
I'd look for jobs in academia, non-profits, or startups, where the conviction itself won't be as much of a bar. I'd personally go with startups -- for most roles at most startups it won't be an outright disqualification. Most startups are too stupid/lazy/rushed to do a background check anyway, but if you get caught later, it's worse than if you disclosed it up front, in many cases (haha MIT admissions director who lied on her resume...)
The worst would be low-skill jobs involving trust (e.g. bank teller); the easiest would be high skill jobs involving no trust (game developer or working on open source software). Sysadmin is in the middle. Security positions require more trust, but would also tend to be more forgiving of computer crimes background.
In the long run, for a federal crime, your best bet is a Presidential pardon (not as hard after you've served time, I think, with a long period of productive work experience since then); that's one thing that sucks about fed vs. state crime. If the law itself is challenged later, that could be a route too.
Consider looking for positions at computer security companies. It's an entirely respectable field with a... "training dilemma". Good pay, in need of developers, pragmatic about the background of people who end up in the field. A lot (most? all?) of security professionals start out at least on the grey side of hacking.
The purpose of putting someone in jail is REHABILITATION. That's right, all caps. The moment someone is released from jail, the legal system sees that person as having a high probability of being rehabilitated (true, not always the case, but that's the fault of the US legal system), otherwise he/she would have not been released. Unfortunately nowadays a big percentage of the population in the US is mentally challenged blood-lusting self-righteous fanatics. So you self-righteous "rockstar" developers that have been posting bullcrap in this thread, you can go fork yourselves. As for the OP, you will have no trouble finding a job. Don't make it public unless explicitly asked, and say no more than necessary. Good luck!!
I typed out my (very long) story, then ended up deleting it. Let me offer some advice, however:
When you fill out applications and are asked "the question", lie. As someone who has very strong ethics and morals, it's hard for me to say that. It is, however, absolutely necessary if you wish to work again.
Eventually, however, somebody will probably find out and you need to be prepared to deal with that.
The first time it happened to me, I was fortunate in that I had a great working/professional relationship with my superiors a few levels "up the ladder" (very large company). When they found out, they called me in and confronted me about it. I told them the absolute truth and also explained why I lied about it. They sent me home, mulled it over for about a week, then called me and told me to come back to work. It was never mentioned again.
The next time it happened, I was offered a job at a company after one short interview. When I filled out the paperwork, I lied, of course. It wasn't very long before they found out about it (and this was a MUCH smaller company). The two owners, however, knew that I was friends with the Mayor, who they were also friends with. They asked the Mayor about whether they should keep me and his response was something to the effect of "I would, he's a helluva lot smarter than any of your other guys". (It probably also helped that my boss is pretty shady anyways).
*
With regard to Google search results, take control of that shit. Start a blog, write awesome shit, post videos on YouTube, participate in mailing lists/forums, etc. Spread your name everywhere you can so that when you are Googled, it's your own stuff that comes up. If you Google me, you'll get tired of clicking "Next Page" long before you find anything negative.
Basically, lie on the paperwork. If you're honest, they're not even going to give you a chance. If you at least get "in the door", work harder than anyone else. Volunteer to work on things nobody else wants to and do the absolute best that you can at everything. Eventually, they WILL find out. Be prepared for that day.
If you are looking for employment with a company, you will face difficulties (as you describe in your post).
Is self-employment an option for you? The web is one of the most democratic professions. Produce something people want to use and they (mostly) won't care about your background. In fact you can see it here on Hacker News. People post personal or professional projects, few people care about the academic qualifications or otherwise of the posters.
You seem conscientious and determined, so don't lose those qualities. Whatever you decide, good luck :-)
I would hire you at my company for the following reason:
- Your ravenous intellectual curiosity. Sure it got you into trouble, but there aren't enough people with a hunger to learn and tackle challenges.
I would not hire you if I didn't believe
- You were truly remorseful
- You wouldn't get bored in a straight gig and become a liability to the company
I believe that you can use history as a good predictor of future behavior, but a mistake someone made 10 years ago as a youth should be past the statute of limitations. Let me know if I can help...
You've created an eloquent plea for advice on how to answer the question, and I guess my answer is that you need to be that eloquent when explaining why you want a particular job.
There is something in your favor ... none of the good jobs (i.e. the ones you want) are going to be filled by people that only fill out the job application. My last three jobs included me filling the job application out (for the HR drones to say it was complete) after the interviews were done and a hiring agreement was reached. So my advice is to network, push your way into the minds and hearts of the employers you'd like to work for, then let them hire you. Make sure the person making the hiring decision hears this story and assure them it's ancient history.
When you finally get around to filling out the job application, be honest and when you get to the conviction question, don't check either box. If it's a paper form, write "see attachment" and affix a copy of the letter you just posted. For an on-line application, ask to meet with HR instead of filling out the on-line form. In both cases, let HR know that the hiring manager knows the details of the story and is unconcerned.
So the bigger question is where do you live (or where would you like to live?)... you can start building your network on HN today!
Your best bet is to leverage your social circles to get an entry point to your first job. Once you have that, then the conversation shifts as people will see that job as vouching for your progress.
"the pursuit of this degree is a waste of time"
At this stage of the game, what you need is someone to lend you personal credibility, and a degree won't do that for you.
If you do see this, shoot me an email (included in my user page)
Kevin Mitnick seems to be doing well with http://mitnicksecurity.com. Granted his celebrity hacker status may contribute to that success, but it goes to show that a Felony conviction is by no means an impenetrable barrier to creating a consultancy or working for one.
Start your own freelance business and get a bit of reputation by doing low-level work like web design for local pizzerias, restaurants etc. - no one gives a about convictions when hiring a web designer.
It's how I managed to stay afloat (although, I am in Germany).
I don't really enjoy taking the time to make things look pretty. I'm not very good at that part of the design process and it takes too long for me (imho) to produce some aesthetic that will never really be functional outside the scope of organization.
I have done it when I've needed money though. Just aggravates me.
I have another idea. Either you can go on fighting the rejections and slowly building a brand for yourself when your past will no longer matter (I can't comment on whether your current situation is indeed that bad), or you could try graduate school. From what it sounds, you seem to be interested not just in programming, but the more abstract principles and reasoning required in designing software systems. Graduate school can help you channelize that interest and who knows, you might make a name for your self in academia.
You will need some money for that though, but I personally consider that investment worth the potential experience that you can get at graduate school. More valuable than buying a fancy car.
I did some dumb things when I was a teenager, and eyebrows get raised when I answer certain questions truthfully (although in my case, none of it quite rises to the level of a federal conviction). In the circles in which I have worked for the past 15 or so years (slinging Ruby, PHP, Node, and so forth), this wouldn't even come up in an interview, let alone elicit more than a few chuckles if mentioned. The only thing that matters is that you're mature enough to be trusted now, and your work will show that. Really, you should have heard the giggles when I said I was leaving work early one night to sit the GED (and I was 25 and making six figures). TL;DR let your work speak for you.
The great thing about this industry is that you can build things on your own. It's tough if you are already having to put in 40+ hours a week just to get by; but if you have real skills you should be able to turn them into something profitable.
Perhaps doing penn-testing if you're still into it, or building an income generating product. It's probably also possible to get hired by a startup or through a personal connection.. but my general recommendation would be to create value directly.. since customers aren't going to even know who you are in most cases if you are selling them SaaS
Penn-testing today is growing into something it wasn't when I was having fun. The community consists of mixed talent and a trend is growing as more ease-of-use [e.g: nessus, metasploit] tools become available to infosec "pros". That emergent trend (SaaS?) disgusts and repels me because it eliminates one of the more captivating and rewarding elements of vulnerability hunting (the delicious, delicious, research experience). Reverse engineers, devs who are able create on-the-fly solutions, and vx community notwithstanding.
Also, as said in a previous post: my experiences with independent private disclosure is most often a futile waste of time - 'thanks' || ignored || threatened with LE.
WRT building an income generating product: I don't have many unique ideas or any marketing experience. I'm currently working with a friend exploring android os internals and platform development. We're going to throw our project into that market and see how it pans out.
I generally only create things I need to try out an idea or get something done. This project strays away from that principle so it will be interesting to see whether or not the venture is fruitful.
Been freelancing for close to 13 years and no one has done a background check on me ever. I'm not an ex-con, but if I was one I doubt any of my clients would ever know or care.
You should keep your current job and start a business in tech on the side. If you grow it, you can quit your lower paying job - you will have created your own. Maybe try IT consulting or mobile app development. If you go the development route, obviously no one needs to know or will care who was behind it. Even as a consultant, few if any clients will ask you about convictions, and you can simply decline the work from clients that do.
This is going to sound a little cliche, but try not to get discouraged by the rejections. After graduating from college I applied to over 100 companies and ended up getting a measly 4 interviews, but one of them did get me a job offer. It doesn't matter if all of the others reject you, it just takes one offer to get you a job.
People with convictions have become lawyers. I personally know of one who was a successful lawyer and then tried his hand at cocaine smuggling. Got caught in a sting, served time. Lost his license. Came back and went down a hard road to get licensed again, but he did it.
I'd say start doing contracting. Given market demands you will get land a contract quickly. Some contracts end up being fu time jobs without benefits. So it might play out better for you. You could also do security work. God knows that there is always work on that market.
I would say, take the same mixture of creativity and willful persistence that led you to crack systems and apply that to getting a job you are happy with. That combination of character traits will destroy most obstacles in time.
The questions some one needs to ask is how old was the OP when he was convicted (where they a minor) and does the USA have an equivalent to the rehabilitation of offenders act?
Check the conditions in different countries. Here often companies don't do background checks and to rent an apartment you only need to shake hands with the owner.
Start your own freelance firm. There's a lot of work for freelancers and outside of the fortune 500 very little background checking of the contractors.
DISCLAIMER: This is NOT legal advice. I am not a lawyer, and there's a hell of a lot of risk in what I'm going to tell you to do.
When I was a teenager, someone I knew did something nonviolent but pretty bad (severe academic dishonesty) and had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question".
You might judge me negatively for keeping such a person as a friend-- and I shouldn't have, but that's another story-- but at the time, I was naive and not a great judge of character. Anyway, he asked for advice on the Discipline Question and I told him to take an "odds and evens" strategy: rank his choices. For the odd-numbered (1st, 3rd, ...) choices, omit it. For the even-numbered ones, full disclosure. The idea was that whether the information would be disclosed (by the Guidance Office) was an unknown but constant variable: they'd either tell all colleges or none.
If his HS Guidance Office disclosed to all, he'd have a slight chance of getting the ones where he did disclose (his evens) and no chance of getting the ones where he omitted (the odds).
If Guidance disclosed to none, he'd have a slight chance of getting the evens and a pretty good chance (they wouldn't know) of getting the odd-numbered choices.
His HS took his mistakes off the record, so they didn't disclose. He did well on his odd-numbered college choices and zeroed the even-numbered ones. If I recall correctly, he got 3 out of 5 odds and 0 out of 5 evens. Not a lot of data, but the conclusion was: don't answer the Discipline Question.
There isn't a constant, hidden variable (guidance office) for your case but it's still unpredictable how easily employers will find out and how your conviction will be perceived. There are hidden variables you can't easily measure.
So I think "odds and evens" is the right strategy. Full, honest disclosure with half. Full omission with half. Collect data. Iterate.
You didn't hear this from me. I don't know the details and I'm not a felon, but I think it is pretty fucked up how any felony leads to long-term economic disenfranchisement, so I sincerely hope this advice helps.
With governments, full disclosure always. It's unambiguously illegal to lie about a felony conviction to get a government job. So tell the truth.
Get a lawyer, too. Find someone who's dealt with this and knows the risks. I don't think my "odds and evens" approach is, to quote Inception, "strictly speaking, legal".
As a counterpoint, since we're all just dealing in anecdotes here, I had a non-empty answer to the "Discipline Question"; I was suspended for "hacking", albeit after voluntarily telling my principal about it.
I disclosed it on my applications, while my high school did not. I was still accepted to MIT and Stanford. I later learned that MIT actually called my high school to get clarification on it, so I know it was seen at least by them.
I was also a finalist for an NSA scholarship program (flown out to the Maryland "friendship annex" for interviewing) despite having disclosed it.
So, I dunno what my point is. Maybe these things depend on who reads your application or what, but it's not an automatic dealbreaker, and I do encourage people to be honest.
Well, to be honest I figured it wouldn't hurt my chances. I've learned more from google and boredom with a heavy dose of frustration than I've ever learned in school.
All of my associates in the field do not have to deal with this issue and maintain the perspective that actual experience is more important than education. I've an incredible obstacle to surmount and it matters to me that I have documented training. It's just one-less-thing standing in the way.
I guess with cracking the intent is crucial. Ie were you just curious and forgot to respect the boundary, or were you in it for personal gain. The first would make good NSA agents once set straight, the second much harder to trust.
If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable.
If I were hiring for a security-related job, I'd consider the poster if he not only disclosed the conviction, but also contextualized it on his cover letter the way that he did in the pastebin, and if he provided some character witnesses (teachers, employers).
If you deliberately conceal a criminal conviction from an employer who asks, that employer is more than "not referenceable"; they're a company who has fired you for cause. Among other things, they are now another thing you'll have to either disclose or try to conceal from future employers, many of whom will ask whether/from-where you've been fired for cause.
In extreme cases, making fraudulent bogus disclosures to employers can be actionable, if for instance your criminal status comes up on a background check for your employer's clients or business partners and damages the relationship.
Deliberately lying about this issue seems like an extremely dumb strategy.
"If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out, and then they aren't referenceable."
This, this, a million times this. It's not even losing the job that would be the worst for me, it would be the paranoia of turning up to work every day thinking "Did they find out about that thing now? Are they considering firing me or did they decide it didn't matter? Argh!!".
There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal.
There's a Calvin & Hobbes strip where Calvin breaks his dad's binoculars and is certain at the dinner table that night that his father knows. The anxiety gets to Calvin so much that after about 30 seconds (this is Calvin, remember) he breaks down and confesses. That would so be me in an employment situation where there was something I hadn't disclosed which could lead to dismissal.
Everything you have said on the Internet, ever, "could lead to dismissal". It's a risky world. You just gotta make the best decision you can at each point in time.
Upvoted, I think that's a very fair point. From Calvin and Hobbes to Montaigne: "There is no man so good that if he placed all his actions and thoughts under the scrutiny of the laws, he would not deserve hanging ten times in his life".
For one, I don't think I deserve to be hanged even once. I believe I cannot even be convicted for even minor crimes. Following the law has its benefits, not worrying (about being caught), is a significant one for me.
I hear you, but with respect think you have misconstrued the quotation. Montaigne is saying that the law is so wide and so complex that without knowing it we are constantly committing crimes, for which no fair judge would try us and for which we will never be punished, but nonetheless we are committing.
He exaggerates for effect both in the extent of the crimes and the extent of the punishment but, as a complement to the idea that an employer (if you will, a potentially "unfair judge") can extend their checks from criminal activity to all online activity and in so doing legitimately dismiss an employee, it seems an appropriate "polite" reply to my comment's parent.
Yes absolutely. I know at least one highly regarded info sec consulting firm has a "reformed computer-hacker" (their words) on staff who will penetration test your systems for a handsome fee. ($30k per system last time I checked).
If this is your passion then I would encourage you to apply. Definitely use a cover letter along the lines of the pastebin.
But (and correct this ignorant european), but doesn't at will employment in the USA mean that they could be fired st any point for any or no reason anyway? And that's if they were never convicted of anything, right?
What you say is essentially correct, but there's enough gray area that companies would not want to fire someone carelessly. Even winning a termination suit is losing, for PR reasons. So most professional jobs give enough severance to move on to your next job, unless it's "for cause", which usually means you did something horrible (but occasionally not).
Lying about a felony conviction is "for cause" and he'd get no severance if that was discovered and the reason (or discovered and made the reason after the fact). There is no dispute about that.
If a company will hire him in spite of the conviction, it's better to disclose. Most likely, he'll start disclosing it in 10+ years once he has a track record and no one cares. If no one will hire him, however, he might need an alternate strategy.
If you hide it you risk being discharged a month, a year, or five years from now when your employer finds out
Long-term job security no longer exists. When you take a job, you are always at risk that it ends. For sure, this risk is real. He might get fired for hiding that detail. On the other hand, that likely means he wouldn't have gotten the job in the first place. Which is worse: getting a job for a couple years, building up savings, and then getting fired... or not getting any jobs and being long-term unemployed?
There are no easy answers here. We're comparing bads here. There are risks either way.
and then they aren't referenceable.
At 1 month, you just omit it.
At a year or 5 years, there are two cases. One is where the boss likes you but has (or feels he has) no choice. He probably didn't find you out or make the decision and he may want to help you out. You can discuss the reference issue and he'll probably be your ally.
If he's genuinely mad and won't give a good reference, then make him retreat to name and dates. Have lawyers on it if needed.
In the very-rare case that you need an affirmative good reference (default name-and-dates won't be enough) and he won't give it, then you have to go to extortion. That's an uncommon and ugly topic that I don't want to get into, but at 1-5 years, you have enough important knowledge to make that happen, unless he really hates you.
Extortion? You're just full of great advice, now aren't you?
Lying on your application and extorting people risks torching an already damaged reputation, not to mention potentially huge civil and even criminal liabilities.
To the OP, I recommend ditching the Machiavellian stuff. The best bet in my opinion is to network and contribute to projects where possible (such as through OSS, freelance, etc.). If people actually know you and your story and you have a track record with them, the chances of them putting enough trust in you are much greater. I don't think you should leave the CS world. You're going to find the same issues in any line of work, so you might as well stay in the field where your skills lie.
We're talking about what to do in rare but extremely bad situations where there are literally no good avenues... not what people should do in normal circumstances.
"Extortion" was too strong a word. I meant it in the sense of "aggressive negotiation". Demanding a positive reference not to blow something humiliating is not extortion. If you demand money not to blow something, you're breaking the law, because there's no connection between the payoff and the threat (exposure). However, with a reference, it's "we're going to part ways, but it's best for both of us that we tell the same story, so let's get straight about what just happened". That's how you present it. Not really extortion.
Your advice to OP has a lot of value and on the whole I agree with what you are telling him to do. OSS contributions are a really good idea for him.
However, I still contend that an "odds and evens" mixed strategy will perform better than full disclosure.
Demanding, using "strong negotiation", a positive reference from somebody to whom you lied about your criminal status seems like a good way to get a billboard erected with your face and a URL to your LinkedIn profile on 101.
This isn't the first HN comment you've left where you suggested playing hardball to get positive references from employers. You have an idiosyncratic view of the dynamics of employee references. I find it disquieting, but that obviously doesn't make it intrinsically wrong. I do feel safe saying that it is out of step with the way most employers view the same dynamics.
(https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5007550 - "For me, it's really about references. I don't need a severance, but if you don't agree on a good reference I will do everything in my power to fuck up your reputation.")
If there's no severance, then I'd expect a solid-gold reference, yes. With appropriate severance, the neutral name-and-dates is fine.
A bad reference is an existential battle. You do everything you can to fight that. However, pushing neutral to good is generally a waste of time. Dust yourself off, get clean, and move on.
I am no kind of authority, so please don't take this comment any further than the actual words in the comment box. In particular, I have never worked with you, or anyone who has worked with you; I don't even know what you do (I'm sure it's something interesting and challenging). You're an abstraction to me. I cannot possibly have any opinion about the advisability of employing you and am only sharing my opinion about the ideas you are expressing.
What I have to say about your perspective on references is that I will never, under any circumstances, work with, for, or over someone who believes what I think you're saying you believe about references. "Bad reference => war", to me, is essentially an endorsement of professional dishonesty.
Negotiating over the quality of your reference is to me a bit squicky, but it's on the right side of the line, just a couple steps past coaching your references (which is also white-lie dishonest]). Using aggressive negotiation tactics to ensure good references from people who don't believe your work merits a good reference is on the wrong side of the line. You think it's a concession you're extracting from your former employer, but it is really a concession you are surreptitiously taking from your future employer.
"Bad reference => war", to me, is essentially an endorsement of professional dishonesty.
This whole subthread is about 3-sigma outlier cases that (may) require dishonesty.
I am not ashamed to say that, in a 3-sigma bad situation, I would rather lie (especially, being an immensely capable person who would be a good hire, which means the lied-to party would benefit) than starve.
Honestly is a luxury of the 99% of us (including you and me) who aren't "cosmetically challenged" in some severe, career-damaging way.
Why have interviews at all? You're an immensely capable person who clearly knows what's best for your prospective employer. Just hire yourself for them!
michaelochurch brings up a great point that having even the most minor slip in your records will too often result in a disproportionately, unreasonably unfair reception in the job market:
I don't know the details and I'm not a felon, but I think
it is pretty fucked up how any felony leads to long-term
economic disenfranchisement, so I sincerely hope this
advice helps.
There is something wrong in the system that things are that way, and really I don't see anything abjectly wrong in one doing what he suggested, when you're in a position where the odds are overwhelmingly stacked against you and you've still got to somehow provide for your family.
> He is incorrect about the job market for former felons in our field
I recall that you are in the security field. Naturally some of the best workers in the field very well might be individuals who got into trouble in their teenage years for hacking offenses -- I think you're operating on certain assumptions that are valid indeed only for that niche security field. I can tell you from my experiences in the corporate IT world that the situation here is the opposite to the one you speak of, employers come down hard on folks with the slightest slip in their records, and will absolutely use that bit of information to discriminate against them in hiring decisions.
I agree with michaelochurch when he points out that getting a job for a couple years, building up savings, and then getting fired... is probably better than not getting any jobs and being long-term unemployed in most scenarios.
That's an easy statement to agree with because it is obviously true. I agree with it too! Who wouldn't agree with it? The problem is, that advice came packaged with another piece of advice which was much worse.
I would suggest that while there might be employers who'd take a risk with someone who had a dishonesty offence from their youth, that same pool would very quickly dry up when in became apparent such a person kept behaving dishonestly, in employment situations, no less, years later.
In some high profile cases, people haven't even lost their jobs (e.g. http://readwrite.com/2012/05/03/10-executives-who-lied-on-th...) and the damage was limited to their reputation and bonuses. I'm surprised there weren't more shareholder lawsuits or similar in the case of CEOs. Obviously if your employer is a government lying can result in jail time but other than that it seems the worst that happens is you get fired or lose your bonus. What else have you seen?
I can't believe that Warren Cook didn't make the list. His story is far more outlandish than any of these. He was one of the highest paid employees at the company my father worked at, the Jackson Laboratory in Bar Harbor, ME.
He claimed to have a Master's degree from a prestigious university, that he was awarded the Navy Cross(1 step below the Medal of Honor) and that he played for the 1968 U.S. Olympic hockey team. No one fact checked a single qualification that he listed on his resume, they just hired him.
The sad part is, after they discovered that he was a fraud, they still wanted him to stick around. From what I hear, he did a pretty good job.
Criminal prosecution for fraud? Does that really happen with any regularity? I think by far the most common consequence of being caught lying about a felony is firing with cause.
I'm not a lawyer but I think a fraud prosecution is very unlikely. However, there are a bunch of torts involved.
The real consequence I'm referring to here though is a firing for cause. Real for-cause firings are rare in our business, so I think we tend to forget that they are a big deal.
The major consequence of "termination for cause" is that you don't get severance, and the company will probably fight unemployment claims.
I grant you that if he gets fired over this, he shouldn't expect a package. His life is already in a state of fucked-up-ness that is beyond worrying about that he might get fired without severance. He needs to get a job, first and foremost. Severance is almost a Maserati problem, where he is.
Right now, severance is nice to have but not a huge deal. Fifteen years from now when he's getting large (~1 year) contractual severances due to being in highly strategic roles-- he can be cut for reasons that aren't his fault, and job searches take years at his level-- he will want to start coming clean about the felony. By that time, he'll have a track record and can come clean because no one will care about a 15-20+ year old felony conviction.
You are providing what I believe to be --- pragmatically --- terrible advice in this thread. It is not impossible to find employment in tech with a felony conviction; in fact, by all outward appearances, the opposite is true; people with CFAA convictions are employed at a rate higher than that of the overall population; they are, as a general rule, employed.
What you're saying is that you think the job market is so inhospitable to people with criminal convictions that they should endanger their career to weasel their way into jobs. We could debate how unwise that advice was if you were right about the employment market. But you're wrong about the employment market, which makes the risk/reward on what you're suggesting so far out of whack that your suggestion isn't worth entertaining.
I don't have strong opinions about what you do with a prospective employer who at no point asks you about your criminal record. But if you're asked about it, you're crazy if you lie.
Again, let me (tediously) repeat that I don't know you personally; you happen to spend a decent number of words on HN articulating ideas that I find worth disputing, but on the street I wouldn't know you from Adam and I have no issue with you personally.
It is not impossible to find employment in tech with a felony conviction; in fact, by all outward appearances, the opposite is true; people with CFAA convictions are employed at a rate higher than that of the overall population; they are, as a general rule, employed.
This may be. That's why I suggested the "odds and evens" (full disclosure with half, full omission with half) strategy. Not only is it hedged but it will also give him data-- which we don't have.
It's obviously better if he can disclose and still get a job. Then he has nothing to worry about.
To be honest, I feel like we're both suburban kids arguing about inner-city gang life. :) We both think we're tough, and we both are tougher than most people in our neighborhood, but we haven't actually been in the slums. We don't have the data. I guess that's a good thing, given the nature of what we're arguing about.
I'm glad that you're arguing the other side of this, though, because we're talking about Serious Shit and OP needs to hear all sides.
For reasons of self-interest, most employers are not going to fuck with their exes' reputations after parting ways.
There are exceptions-- sometimes you have to hire legal professionals and very occasionally one might have to hire illegal professionals to make someone do the right thing-- but those are way outside of the norm.
If he does good work and still gets fired, it's probably by a boss who had little choice in the decision and doesn't want to fuck him over, not someone who's going to be vengeful and make a bigger mess than what already exists.
Unfortunately, we're talking about situations of depravity over which there are practical and ethical reasons why data collection is not possible. One falls into them very rarely, and hopefully never.
I've never done most of this extremely chaotic shit that I endorse, but I think it's important to have the ethical conversations to shine some light on to things that actually go on.
Societies like to see themselves as existential struggles between lawful good and chaotic evil, but neither of those are major players. (Lawful good is too restrained; chaotic evil is too maladjusted to have a chance unless the world's already fucked.) The real battle is between chaotic good and lawful evil. So excuse my chaos. :)
Then add to the problems I have with the very bad advice you're giving on this thread that this is a game or an intellectual exercise for you, and a lasting painful career-threatening injury to anyone who takes that advice.
Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just told them in the first place.
Like you, I have a lot of sympathy for people stuck with criminal convictions. We agree there. We'd both like to find advice to help people get excellent jobs despite stupid criminal convictions. My problem with your advice isn't with its intentions, but rather that I'm pretty sure it's dumb.
Don't deliberately lie to employers who ask about your criminal record. The only ones who won't go absolutely apeshit on you when they find out are the ones who would hire you anyways if you just told them in the first place.
What does "go absolutely apeshit" mean? I contend that there's risk of termination, likely without severance. Anything more would expose the individual in a way that most people would avoid.
Also, "employer" isn't a monolithic concept. The players all have different motivations. Maybe HR dings everyone with a conviction. He hides it, gets through the HR wall. His boss likes him. He gets in, does great work for 9 months. Then HR finds out. His boss has to fire him. His boss isn't mad at him (maybe at the situation, but not at him). In that very plausible scenario, yes he's fired, but he gets a decent reference.
If it's between the risk of getting fired later and not being able to get a job at all, then you take the former.
I proposed "odds and evens" because I don't think either of us know which is the better strategy (lie vs. disclose) and I think mixing is the way to go.
In some industries, your advice isn't practical. Tptacek's home base being Chicago probably brings commodities trading firms to the fore of his mind.
Otherwise, your ideas benefit the individual with an almost adversarial approach to companies. Tptacek looks at things from the position of that adversary. Your advice stands to surprise the established order... Instead of relying on the mercy of an all-powerful business benefactor, someone who followed you would continue operating under their own power, through their own exploit.
So it's possible you guys might agree in certain cases but it seems unlikely you'll come to public agreement on the hypotheticals here.
Right, I presume tptacek to be older and also see him as more in line with lawful good. I'm closer to chaotic good.
It's generational, I think. My parents grew up in a time when it was unthinkable to do some of the things I've advocated (e.g. concealing a felony record, using harsh tactics to improve a reference) but, in their time, it was much more the norm for employers to be decent. You wouldn't get fired because your new boss (hired 2 days ago) wanted his high school friend in your position. That happens all the time now. My parents' generation grew up before the corporate social contract fell to pieces. It vanished for them before most of them could get to the top of anything, but they still want to believe in it and have a hatred for the rule-breakers at the top who killed it.
Millennial rule-breakers are different. We never believed anyone took the rules seriously, and we break them from the bottom.
I was born in 1983 (after the apocalypse had begun) and the differences in assumptions are huge. I never grew up thinking anything positive about corporations in general. Specific companies, sure. Microsoft seemed OK, Google was neat for some time. But it was clear even in the mid-90s that most of them had turned brazenly evil and weren't coming back.
As a generation, we are ethical, but we have more fluency with rules than older generations. None of us would think twice about bumping a performance-based bonus to the top bucket (e.g. in finance where that's important for future jobs). That's just something you do. It's none of their business and the lie is what they get for asking. On the flip side, there are a lot of things that most of us find disgusting and truly unethical (war, pollution, oppression of overseas workers) that Baby Boomer CEOs don't seem to oppose.
Frankly, in a world with the Koch Brothers and Xe/Blackwater and private health insurance, I don't give the square root of a fuck if someone decides to lie on his resume. I don't lie, but that's because I have a good resume and don't want to gamble credibility, but other people who do it are a rounding error, compared to the real shit going down.
1. Criminal complaint that results in arrest. Youthful folly can be forgiven, but being caught in a calculated adult deception is pretty much nonrecoverable.
2. Audits of everything he touched, with a view towards uncovering a repeat of his earlier deceptions. Even if he is innocent, there is a good chance that the security consultants and forensic accountants will find something interesting. Something that the detective investigating the case will not understand.
Lying in a job search, while usually unethical, is not always illegal. Most of the lies people tell to make themselves look more impressive or to conceal blemishes are not in violation of law.
Job fraud is pretty tightly defined. If you cannot perform the job (or have no intent to do so) and know it beforehand, you're committing job fraud. It's illegal (it's fraud) and you can go to jail for it. The same is true if you feign qualifications to get a job you cannot legally perform (e.g. quack doctors). Also highly illegal.
However, if your deception makes you a more attractive candidate for a job you can perform, then it's not job fraud. It might be unethical, but it's not jailable.
In fact, job search lies are only cause for termination if the employer can establish (sometimes requiring cavity searches of personnel decisions) that the person would not have been hired were the truth known. If the company only hires 3.5+ GPAs as a matter of HR policy and he turned a 2.8 into 3.7, that's "for cause" (even if he was a great employee) because there is an internally published and consistent policy and he didn't fit. However, if the person concealed a 5-month gap in employment history, that might have been a factor but the onus is on employer to establish that it constitutes "cause".
However, with this particular case (concealed felony conviction) the employer will have almost no controversy on that one when it comes to firing for cause. I don't think anyone doubts that. If he gets found out and fired, he can't expect severance.
Audits of everything he touched, with a view towards uncovering a repeat of his earlier deceptions.
Yeah, he's got to be whiter than white, ethically speaking, from here on out, except when there is strategic necessity. Avoiding long-term unemployment constitutes "strategic necessity". Once you're in check, the way he is, you really have to limit your lies and make them count. Picking your battles becomes key.
Ahh yes. The good ol' hat problem. I never considered remaining silent about it, but most places around here do CORI background checks with the information on CV so It is hard to avoid. Also, a simple google query of my name pulls up quite a few embarrassing news articles.
Imagine the fun it was to explain the situation to your spouses parents after they have googled you.
Thank you for your response. I will give non-disclosure a shot and see how that works. It feels inappropriate deceptive for me to omit those details when asked (via interview question in person, phone, or form) about them.
Have you thought about using a different name in business? A friend of mine Anglicized his and it fixed a reputation problem.
For most people, that'd be a loss. You'd lose your whole reputation. It sounds to me like your reputation is of negative value, given the Google problem.
Keep in mind also that Googling happens before interview, and background checks happen after a successful interview. So even if the name-change won't get you around a formal check (by some stable identifier like SSN) you can at least control the time of disclosure.
The ugly thing about being Googled is that you don't know when or if it happens. Name change gets you the interview and then, if you're pretty sure they'll find it in a more thorough check, you can disclose it on your terms.
Really you can change your name for whatever reason you want, and there isn't even a process. You just start introducing yourself as that new name. Of course you have to be careful which name you use on which form (legal name goes on the I-9, chosen name goes on the resume, occasionally you get the opportunity to fill out the 'other aliases' field, etc), but otherwise there is zero hassle and so long as there is not an intent to defraud, you are in the clear.
Almost every member of my immediate family has casually done this at least once with no problem (it's kind of a family tradition it seems..). The name on my credit cards, the name I am known by professionally, and the name my parents know me by are all different. They share similar derivation yes, if you know one of them you probably would not bat an eye when another came up, but they are absolutely sufficiently different to isolate online reputations.
If you're saying anybody who Googles you can find out about your record, it would obviously be silly to lie about it. If your employer somehow fails to do that during the hiring process, somebody will eventually do it after you start working there.
This is the best answer I have ever seen to a question like this. It's articulate and carefully explains the steps leading up to an evidence based conclusion. I've rarely felt more that something is "Insightful".
You do not have to rely on an application process when looking for a job. This isn't just advice for people who think they have a challenging story -- it goes for everyone. There are hundreds of stupid ways you get filtered out.
There are examples of far worse felons than the OP who are employed in CS. Find a way to tell the story honestly and in a way that shows that you learned from it.
(1) Become a top performer in college by working hard
(2) Make public works
(3) Build a network
Do that and you won't need to run an application test.
I'd like a lawyer to explain the legal distinction between a felony and a misdemeanor. Over my lifetime it seems that the the number of felonies has grown enormously and many of them don't seem to be for offenses that have much harm relative to many misdemeanor offenses.
A misdemeanor is an offense that can yield no more than a year in jail and requires only a conviction by trial. A felony is considered a "high crime" and is defined as an offense that can yield more than a year of prison time. Felonies require an indictment (basically a preliminary jury hearing to determine if there is sufficient evidence to go to trial), and then a conviction by trial. Felonies generally are much nastier records wise, require more time before they can be sealed or expunged (depending on state law) if they can be at all. They exclude you from certain rights such as gun ownership, voting, holding public office etc automatically. The system is fairly skewed and crimes are often made felonies in a reactionary context, i.e. some trivial computer crimes can yield felonies while cracking another mans skull under the right circumstances may only yield a misdemeanor assault charge after plea bargaining.
IANAL but I've got some "experience" in the legal area. A felony is a crime that is punishable by incarceration of more than one year. It doesn't matter if you were given one day in jail -- if the crime you are convicted of could have resulted in you being given one year and one day, it is a felony.
I've had a felony for over 8 years now, and have been working as a developer almost the entire time. I've only been asked to disclose that information once, and I did. While the company had questions, they didn't seem to care very much (note: I don't recommend telling anyone. If you're a great employee and a mistake from your youth discounts you from a job, it's a lose-lose. But I did tell, so... ).
College? They cared. I would have had to sit through review boards and go through a lot of extra hoops. So I never went. That's right, I'm a felon with no college degree.
Life is harder. Your paper trail isn't worth anything, so you have to create your public image (link to the SO podcast about blogging?). Let your accomplishments speak for themselves. Be a part of the community. Give back to the community. Get to know people through helping others. Get jobs through recommendations. You may not be able to work at BigCo, I don't think I can. But so many companies are small, I've found it doesn't matter.
You won't ever have to lie on a resume if you build yourself up in the right way.
* And please email me, seriously, if _anyone_ has questions. So many mundane things are a felony, and people need to understand that it isn't a life ending label before they jump to permanent solutions. My probation officer told me, paraphrased "You'll be surprised who else has a felony. They will probably be inclined to give you a chance. So make sure you have a job next visit.".