We hear about people wanting to move to a different country because of economic reasons or political reasons regularly. If you had your wish, where would you move to? If you wish, tell us where you are from.
I wouldn’t recommend the UK to anyone. It feels like it’s been coming apart at the seams for some time. People, business and government generally treat foreign people differently, and by foreign I mean just not like them. The food isn’t as bad as others make out IMO but mainly because of the foreign influence. English people at least are culturally more reserved and not as warm as or welcoming as most other countries I’ve been to. The weather is awful most of the time and there’s an increasing disrespect for laws, rules and taxes and no perceived effort for local authorities and government to correct it. There are probably many more work opportunities here but mainly London based and the wages are ok and taxes on the lower side compared to most of Europe. Where you are in your life will obviously have a big influence on what’s important to you but if I were to leave I think Lisbon or somewhere in Italy within reach of high mountains and sea but not too far from amenities. You’ll get great weather, food and a rich culture and generally speaking warm people.
I’m an American living in Germany for the past 4 years. I moved here from the west coast after I sold my last startup because I wanted a new, different kind of adventure. I don’t see myself going back to the US any time soon, but I’m actively working on relocating to the UK.
My wife and I want to move there because we want to be somewhere more English speaking. I speak German well enough, but she’s really struggled. Truth is, it’s really difficult to integrate into a society if you don’t speak the language at a high level. And after around year 2.5 or 3 I really started thinking hard about integration.
The political situation in Germany is a bit of a struggle, but coming from the US…this is a cake walk. I’m so happy to not have to deal with American politics on the regular.
Economically speaking, there are obviously way more opportunities in the UK, especially for my wife who works in HR given the language requirement. In the tech ecosystem in Germany, it’s two-tiered: The really good engineers make a wage comparable to the US. Think like tier 2 or tier 3 cities like Dallas or Miami. I says it’s about 70% of the Bay Area. But the VAST majority of engineers, working for German companies, make way less. Average wage is probably €70k?
Obviously, your euro goes massively further here as compared to the UK and US. My point in all this is that it’s really difficult to actually compare apples to apples, what your quality of life will be based on your salary and cost of living alone in different parts of the world.
You will earn 1/3 of what you could in the U.S. in the UK. You will pay much more in taxes and have much higher fixed real estate expenses (mortgage, lease etc). Your economic opportunities will cease to exist. Your standard of living will drop and stall. You will have “free” healthcare which basically just seeks to triage you with “holistic” (I.e. free) solutions until your symptoms manifest as life-changing. You will experience some of the worst weather on the planet. Ignore the noise online. Avoid the UK and go home.
I am no fan of the UK but "worst weather on the planet"? The UK's greatest fault is that it is mediocre, it is uninspired, it is neither good nor bad, it is a place with so much potential that realises so little of it.
If economic opportunity is your motivation then the U.S. is a much better place to be than the UK, but if you'd just like to live a normal life with healthcare and a house, the UK is a far better place to be than the U.S for most people. "Economic opportunity" as a motivator is itself a U.S. mindset.
Or you may not have this experience at all. The weather is not nearly as bad as claimed. The healthcare has its issues, but not having to divest your life savings for an unexpected trip to the hospital is a good thing. Standard of living can be very high. You will have a huge public transport network, bike friendly cities, some of the best culinary spots in the world, plenty of nature and green spaces, social activities, endless arts & culture, free museums in the capital.
Source: an expat living permanently in the UK.
Meanwhile America is being driven into the ground by Trump and Elon.
I have many expat friends living in London, which honestly is part of the motivation to move, and what you're describing is my expectation. Likewise agree that I don't think others commenting on this thread fully grasp what a uncontrolled disassembly the US is going through right now. Completely unprecedented.
Ad an expat/immigrant, I'll tell you my personal working definition, based only on my experience:
An immigrant is one who moves from a poorer country to a richer country. An expat is one who mixes from a richer country to a poorer country.
One cool feature of my definition is that it explains a lot of the cultural subtleties in comparing these groups: how immigrants adopt the local ways much more than expats do (expats retain that touch of superiority) etc etc
On average, every situation is different, this is just my general rule of thumb pattern I've observed.
It's a bit of a different thing. Expat implies working there for a few years before going home, immigrant implies moved permanently. Most Americans in London are the first one.
America is failing currently, putting vaccine deniers in charge of Healthcare, destroying its school system, destroying rule of law and legal system. It is generally in a self destruct more. Likewise, removing customer protections and acting destructively towards economy.
There is a question how much it destroys other countries too, but the fall of us is pretty much granted.
>The Globalization and World Cities Research Network (GaWC) is a British think tank that studies the relationships between world cities in the context of globalization. It is based in the geography department of Loughborough University in Leicestershire, United Kingdom
I had to wonder why London would rated be above Tokyo and I had my answer immediately.
Well two posts ago you said London was one of the world’s great cities. Not that it was the most open to economic globalization which is a vastly different point to try to make.
The first two sentences of the wiki reveal both the British nature of the publication and its focus not on great cities but on measuring how large cities are open to investment and trade from foreign markets.
This is as close to approaching no one’s definitions of a great city as I am aware.
Have you tried living in the UK? I'm from Sweden and frequently visit make long visits for work.
There is no way I could live there for prolonged times. YMMV.
The UK experience varies quite a lot depending on the details. It helps to have a bit of money so you can buy a house or similar. Also personally I like london but find middle of nowhere England boring.
I think most remarks here about the UK health system are apocryphal. My real experience is that it is very good. It is true they don't waste money, but for real issues they are excellent. Sadly that is'nt newsworthy.
I agree, I've actually had to use the NHS before (broke my arm while in the UK) and it was fine. I've also extensively used the German health care system, and it likewise has it's fault but is, overall, fine.
Honestly, I wonder what people want or mean when they say a "health care system is amazing" -- I don't know if there is one that is such, and perhaps that's an antipattern if it is?
This is the exact reason why I left London. It's fine and good if you are by yourself or your partner. But once you have kids, it's very difficult to live in the capital. A lot of stabbing and anti-social behaviour. You'd need to live in the rich parts of London (Chelsea..etc) and even then it's not very safe.
I came to Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) for the productivity gain. KL hits a sweet spot of safe, good amenities, affordable, and 'boring' (so as to avoid distractions). Good accommodation is affordable on a moderate budget inc. 3x/week housekeeping, reducing what I have to do outside of work/startup. Food, groceries, and transport are high-quality, cheapish and available via apps. Good co-working facilities are available. (internet speeds are horrendous but some places will have good speeds, just have to shop around a little).
On top of a full time remote job, I'm getting 4-6+ hours of quality time on my startup per day. I haven't quite hit this level of productivity anywhere else in the world, for a variety of reasons including distractions, transport friction, and even accommodation frictions like poor sleep due to noise or temperature or other reasons.
My days are literally: work dayjob, work on start up, exercise, sleep. Probably a 1.5-3x productivity improvement compared to my (large, Western) home city. I notice I'm improving much faster (productivity seems to have an exponential impact on mastery). It also feels pretty easy to do 12+ hour days, which, for me, underscores the value in fiercely reducing unnecessary distractions. Seemingly small distractions can add up.
Yeah, I'd say many places in Asia hit the same affordable/convince as KL, but they aren't as "boring". I lived in KL for two months and had a pretty similar experience. Lived in the sunway velocity condos which was connected to Sunway velocity mall. Pool & gym in the building, grocery store was a short air conditioned walk away along with a bunch of different restaurants.
I was living in a bubble (by choice), very efficient and very boring.
I had a pretty similar setup in Busan in South Korea, but the party scene was too fun. Much worse if you're trying to be "efficient".
Strong agree. I'd also add 'comfortable'. For example, to contrast it with bali or vietnam, there's almost no physical pollution, air pollution, and little noise pollution. It's weird how these little things add up, but I have about 10% more energy here, which matters toward the end of the day when you can get more hours of quality work done (assuming productivity matters).
> Pool & gym in the building
Also fortunate to have this. They're a bit better quality than in most parts of the world. I think it has to do with low labour costs in Malaysia, so they're well enough maintained to be inviting and you're motivated to use them more (a very good thing).
Feeling as fulfilled as ever. If you love what you do and find it exhilarating, common-place 'entertainment' is bland in comparison. And productivity's the whole point for a while (I have travel plans / weddings from the middle of the year onwards). There's nothing wrong with focussing on being productive for a while. Think of it like university which may demand 6-12 weeks of intense focus, before periods of completely other activities.
The US. I am from one of the Scandinavian countries with small kids, and trying to align work to move, at least temporarily, in a couple of years when they are able to handle them self in English. My wife was an exchange student many years ago and kept connection with the host family. We’ve visited multiple times. The company I work for has a US branch. It’s the only other country I've ever wanted to live in. Visited many others. It seems to me to be the most “alive” and dynamic western country, even with faults. Scandinavia and western Europe is stagnant, regulated to death and slumbering. It might change, I hope it will, but living here, not on the horizon yet.
I would move to Norway. Hands down. I would live northerly and/or westerly. The place is beautiful; the people are pragmatic, awesome, and kind. I love the norsk language, Nordnorsk dialekten spesielt.
Unfortunately my parents, siblings, kids (and now grandkids) live stateside so I’m stuck staying here, because as much as I might value a place or a people, family connections are first for me. More so as I age.
(Disclosure, I did live in various places around Norway 1990-1991).
I'm from the UK and I relocated to NZ when I was 24, then to the US, Denmark, then back to NZ. I liked all the places I moved to but New Zealand is the best.
It's not perfect, on local wages the housing market is a struggle, and it often feels like the country as a whole doesn't have quite enough resources to support things to the level of other western countries (hospitals, transport, that kind of thing). The flip side of that is that it doesn't feel so busy, there are fewer people everywhere.
I would agree with some other comments that the UK is miserable. You don't see it until you leave, but if you go back to visit it's remarkable. And I love so much of my British culture, which I'm sure is intermingled with that miserableness. I'm glad to be away from the place though.
I already did:
When I was computer science apprentice in Switzerland in the late 00s, my mate introduced me to Thai culture, as he was half Thai. I planned to be different from all the passport bros and weirdos and made a plan: Finishing my 4 year apprenticeship, working in the industry and get enough money, learn the language spoken and written, the culture, as well as going on a few trips to Thailand with my mates Thai family. Early 2016 my time came: Fluent in Thai, already familiar with BKK and my ability to transform between western and Thai culture smoothly, I landed a job at a Digital Marketing Agency in Bangkok that caters only to the local market. No Expats in the office - my dream came true.
I learned a lot, not just about other cultures, other ways of thinking, but most about myself. I met my now wife, I made great colleagues and friends for life along the way, I had my downs. It was an exciting time with a lot of growth. The agency expanded from initially 15 people to 130, and then into Vietnam and Indonesia as well. Even during Covid we kept operating - though on a slight salary cut.
Fast forward to 2023, I became more and more bored, asked myself if that is it, and most importantly I turned 36 and started to get worried about my wife's and my future, especially retirement. You know, Switzerland has a solid retirement system, social welfare etc. And all of this I gave up, because living abroad means you don't get those... So I convinced my wife to relocate to Switzerland - something she never intended to do. She has to learn a new miniroty language - German - a new culture, a different climate. And most importantly: Her decent office job in Bangkok is something she will have great difficulty to find in Switzerland.
We moved in 2023 and it hasn't been easy, especially for her. But we're happy to live in a safe country with great social welfare, low taxes, high income etc.
So far we had the chance to stay in Thailand every winter and work remotely. So it's kind of the best of both worlds and my employer is great, they allow this type of lifestyle.
What I learned about all this: Your dreams and your goals become irrelevant once you achieved them, either you constantly chase new ones, or you start being happy. And your favorite country always looks great as a tourist or short term visitor, I can really recommend to first try living there temporarily, be it on long holidays or whatever. And most importantly: Don't stay in the expat bubble, learn the language fluently if you plan to stay there. It's a sign of respect and one step towards integrating into society, you don't want to be the outsider forever.
I belong to subgroup that people like to pick on. I mean I lost two good gigs already thanks to media attacks.
Still no problems with that yet, not for me nor for any of my friends in the same situation.
It certainly helps that we are friendly people who go out of our way to help others so anyone who knows us personally doesn't attack us and it probably also helps that our kids are doing well in school and we do well in the workplace.
But I cannot shake the feeling that I can't be sure if we will continue to be safe. We have many friends, yes, but wave after wave of attacks in media does make me wonder.
Oh yes? What glee you appear to exhibit at the thought of 150 odd million people being thrown in to turmoil.
As if that’s going to be a good thing for Europe. Or anyone for that matter. Russia accounts for something like one third of global fertiliser production.
And, I mean, I can think of nothing better than a massive power vacuum in a state that has the most nuclear weapons in the world. Wile party, if you can get an invite. I suppose.
Imagine if, like, your opinion was wrong, or, let’s say, there turns out to be unintended consequences to the outcome you desire. Because there always is. The road to hell and all of that.
Europe needs Russia to collapse just like they needed nazi to collapse. Noncollapsed Russia will start wars. Non collapsed Russia is actively trying to destroy democracies in Europe even as they did not sent troops yet.
Russia collapses and then what? A hot war between The Axis of China and NATO Co. & Sons? Trump & Xi Jinping divi up the lands and build The Great Wall of Russia.
Russia does not collapse, Trump and Russia dividing Ukraine. Then Russia expanding further.taking over Hungary and Slovakia who will give up instantly. Then Russia attacking Poland, Czech Republic, Austria, German and Europe having war in home.
There is about zero good future with non collapsed Russia who is in addition supported by USA.
Russia will expand, until it collapses. And there will always be a war where they want to go next.
State collapse followed by improvement in quality of life? I can think of maybe three examples in living memory versus, what, three hundred that didn’t work out so well.
Late but it is not something I look forward to. I probably have more Russian friends and ex-colleagues than most people, although that doesn't prevent me from being extremely clear about the situation being caused by russia.
I'd much rather take advantage of Russia stabilizing and becoming a major trade partner to Europe.
That was my original motivation for trying to learn Russian 20-30 years ago.
(Trying to understand where the misunderstanding come from and I am starting to wonder if I misuse the expression "take advantage of". I've always thought there was a difference between "taking advantage of <someone>" which I thought was always bad and "taking advantage of <something>" which I thought could be good or bad depending on the situation.
If I have misunderstood, then apologies for the confusion.
Largest mainstream newspaper in Norway had an article this morning that some of our politicians want to increase our support to many times what it is today.
Four unlikely allies want to increase. The two traditionally largest parties are on the fence and only one large party was clearly against increasing it as far as I saw and remember.
More interestingly a poll there indicated broad support (slightly above 80% at the time I read it) from readers that we should increase our support significantly.
As I mentioned our two largest traditionally parties are on the fence, but I guess they will land were the majority of the voters are.
And to be clear: our current level of support has broad support from every party represented.
I hope you are right, but there are also growing right wing movements and countries with pro-russian governments. I dislike those governments and all that, but they will make it harder for the good parts of Europe to remain good.
The other issue is that if US supports Russia, the Europe has no chance. And Trump will be actively working on destroying Europe too - both economically and politically. Not because of Russia, but because that is wining for him and because he was successful at that his whole life.
American here. Moved to France two and a half years ago. I speak French fluently as does my partner. It was probably easier for us because of that, but it still has it’s challenges. Integrating into a completely new culture where the language isn’t your mother tongue is exhausting at times.
Given all that. I’m quite happy not being back in the US. But I do long for an English first culture from time to time.
In my twenties moved from Russia to Australia, then lived in the US for a couple of years to see how it is. Came back to Australia just before US elections and I'm very happy with my decision to live here.
It has its own problems but for me it feels to be a much nicer place to live peacefully, raise kids and enjoy life
I already made the wish come true. Originally from USA (California). Lived and worked in USA for 50 years, raised kids there. I left to travel full-time about 13 years ago. I spend most of my time in Thailand. I would choose Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, Japan, Mexico, Italy, and many other places over returning to the US.
Every place has political issues, and you won't understand or participate in those until you've lived in a place a long time and learned the language. Many places do not have extreme political polarization. Safety and low crime makes a difference to me.
Economically the advantages and disadvantages will vary a lot based on your source of income and what kind of visa and residency you want. If you move around and don't stay in one country long enough to incur local tax liabilities you can possibly ignore taxes (except for Americans, who have to file and pay US taxes no matter where they live). Earning an income from your home country that you spend overseas can translate to a very different standard of living than getting a local job (and has tax implications as well).
Continual travel doesn't work for everyone. The grass only looks greener a lot of the time, every place has pros and cons. You take your problems with you, traveling changes where you live but doesn't magically change you into a different person.
Hello fellow continual traveller (going to start using that phrase instead of digital nomad). I'm probably 20ish years younger than you and have been doing the same thing for the last 4ish years.
After starting with just a backpack I've slowly accumulated a bunch of random stuff that I keep in a storage unit in Bangkok.
You are right that you take your own problems with you, but you can leave the problems of place behind. Like you say, many places have pros and cons, but if you're only staying for a short time, it's easy to ignore the cons and focus on the pros.
When you're settled in a place, I find it much harder to appreciate the pros and end up focusing on the cons. You can see many people here complaining about their home countries, but if you're there for only two months and aren't invested in the future of the country, it's much easier to enjoy it.
Funny, I have a storage locker in Bangkok too. I don't have a lot of stuff, but enough that I need a place to put it when I go traveling. I mostly live in Bangkok but sometimes my wife and I leave for months at a time.
I was just talking to an expat friend about how many expats/immigrants we know in Thailand who seem to do nothing but complain about Thailand and Thai people. I wonder why they stay here. I can see the same problems they do -- crowded, loud, dirty, bad traffic, polluted -- but I don't react to those problems the same way. I grew up in Los Angeles, a city that seems dirtier than Bangkok, but doesn't have great public transportation like Bangkok does, and I certainly don't feel safe walking around in LA. I try to focus on the things I love about Thailand and not get stressed over the things I don't like.
We all bring our own preferences and perspectives with us. I think the successful travelers and expats adapt and learn tolerance and acceptance. The people I talk to who seem most unhappy always compare where they live with where they came from, focusing on the things they miss, and the things they haven't adapted to. I met an American guy a while back who complained that he couldn't get Pop-Tarts in Bangkok. When I told him about Villa Market and Tops (he had somehow not discovered those after over a year in Bangkok) he got visibly happier -- major life stressor fixed for him.
Americans get a pretty generous foreign earned income exclusion, so unless you make way more than $100k, you have to file but not pay. It could be weird, though, if you are working remote for an American company for W2 income (you can still get your taxes back, but you will have withholding). Also, after the exclusion there is the foreign tax credit, which will cancel out most post $100k taxes if you are paying foreign tax.
Yes, the FEIE exempts the first $126,500 per person. You can adjust your W2 withholding to account for that. You have to either show “bonds fire” residency in a foreign country or physically stay out of the US for 335+ days in a one year period. The FEIE does not apply to Social Security or Medicare taxes, or to state taxes.
You can deduct taxes paid to a foreign country if the US has a tax treaty.
> The FEIE does not apply to Social Security or Medicare taxes, or to state taxes.
I never figured out the payroll tax thing. I was working for the overseas affiliate of an American company, but never had SS/medicare withheld for anything but my dividend income. I also paid Chinese payroll taxes, and they obviously don't have a totalization agreement with the US.
As far as state income tax goes, the only state you really need to worry about is CA, who doesn't recognize foreign residency as an excuse against paying CA tax, especially if they claim you are still a resident because you own a home in CA.
Come over to us to Cyprus. There's no better country to live in at least as long as your passport permits you visa-free EU access, so Europeans, Canadians, etc. are fine, but Indians etc. will be fucked - getting Schengen visas here is a pain and we are an oddball of an EU country because we are the only one of them left that's still not in Schengen. In that case i recommend Portugal which is slightly worse in many things like slightly higher taxes, slightly colder climate, etc., but is in Schengen. If you have cash, a good workaround is to also get a permanent residence in Greece that will set you free of visa issues for life.
If you are an American, nothing saves you from American taxes anyway, which are, even if you don't live in any state (because abroad) so only pay federal taxes, still higher than in any of low-tax EU states, so you are more free in your choice of location, because you will be able to count your American taxes paid against your EU tax obligation, likely nullifying it. I probably recommend Portugal in this case, closer to America in time zones, and local population that's well-used to American expats and doesn't hate them.
Does it ever worry your that half the island is occupied by a Turkish puppet state with no international recognition? Could that turn violent? From the outside it looks like a very strange situation.
There's a huge benefit in having that part around because you can do plenty of shady stuff there that won't fly in any free countries.
No Turks are nice people, in a way nicer than locals, it can never turn violent. They are stuck in that political impasse a lot worse than us.
there's a uk base which guarantees some degree of security, and cyprus is a europen country. i don't think turkey has attacking europe on its priority list. they are often aggressive though, with their navy not allowing cyprus to drill in their own waters for instance
Adding to that, they promise we will join Schengen in about a year. Hard to believe, but there is a strong political momentum pushing the country there (it's against interests of most locals so the system resists as much as it can, but there are stronger external factors pushing us in). If that happens - but i won't bet anything on that - we will be beyond doubt the best country to live in Europe, by far. Will probably lower coastal real estate prices a bit because a lot of it is bought to rent out to tourists from third countries that are now able to enter visa-free or with very simplified visa process, that will be cut off if we are in Schengen so demand from them will disappear.
Oh yes true you are right. They aren't even seen as "European" much from the continental perspective and are usually out of visibility from the local economic as well as cultural standpoint. Ireland as we see it from here is "a place where American corporations evade taxes and because of insane amounts of money they bring in, they pretty much rule there", correct me if i'm wrong. It has a lot more connectivity - cultural, economic, and travel-wise - with USA and UK than with EU it is a part of.
Er what?? You're so far off base. I've lived in the Czech republic for 6 years, Finland for 3 years before that. I'm catholic and my family are Spanish on one side. On the other, well let's say if I was American I would call myself Irish American but I'm not Irish in fact. Ireland has its own culture and of course there's not the continuity with other EU states (Bavarian culture bleeds into Bohemian, the Nordic countries have their shared history, etc). You might argue that they have some cultural similarities with the Brits (but Irish people I know don't think much of that idea). The phenomenon you mention, US corporations using/abusing Irish tax law, is an assault on Irish people and culture not caused by them.
To point to a specific example, Spain and Ireland recognised Palestine in a joint statement.
One of the reasons it isn't in schengen is it has free travel with the UK. You don't even need ID to cross the border and can stay indefinitely if an Irish/UK citizen.
If you can stomach Australians, which isn't too hard for most people, it's actually a good balance for Americans. It's culturally not too far from the US, it has English and a sensible politics (relatively). The weather is really good, and diverse, and people are very relaxed (compared to the US).
If you don't have a sense of humor, especially about yourself, you may find it difficult there though.
sydney feels like all the good things about a metro without the downsides of you know having to deal with the rest of the world because they're literally on the other side of it.
definitely greater Australia is quite gnarly. I'm from CA! it's Sydney or bust.
There is a big pain point about Lisbon: it takes 2-3 years to get your first residence permit. Before then, you live legally in the country, but if you try to cross the border (even as there is no border!), you are now an illegal alien. That situation is simply not present in Spain because they issue residence permits very quickly, before your 90-days visa free stay expires.
Otherwise, i agree with you. Portugal is a better place to live than Spain. I actually recommend people - and several has followed my recommendation - to firstly get a residence permit in Spain, then go to Portugal and apply there, and live in either country until Portuguese one comes out.
'That situation is simply not present in Spain because they issue residence permits very quickly, before your 90-days visa free stay expires.'
This is a common misconception. For almost all residency permits, you must apply from the United States. You are not allowed to apply while in Spain. There are exceptions, but not many. Though, with the new digital nomad visa which did not exist when I moved, it is possible to apply while in Spain. But, it most likely will not be issued within 90 days. I have many friends that have done so and are forced to live illegally for a period before it gets approved. I've never seen a single residency permit get issued within 90 days (other than student visas). The Govt. is EXTREMELY slow. Much more so than the U.S. even. Even our renewals have taken much more than 90 days each time. The easiest option that some people do when in a bind is to enroll in Spanish classes and get a student visa--that one can be applied for in country and is relatively 'fast' (in Spanish terms).
'to firstly get a residence permit in Spain, then go to Portugal and apply there, and live in either country until Portuguese one comes out.'
For most residency permits (in Spain) you have to physically be in the country for more than 183 days (half of the year). So this is not possible (unless you want to switch back and forth). Your renewal would not be approved.
Valencia. Taxes are outrageous, for sure. But all other cost of living is much cheaper. And my daughter will most likely go to a European university so when that cost savings is considered, it's a huge net gain regardless of the taxes. My wife and I both work remotely for U.S. organizations. Earning a U.S. salary with Spanish cost of living allows us to have a quality of life far beyond what we had in the U.S.
So basically it’s move to Spain but work remotely for US. I think it’s worth mentioning that part upfront because working remotely for US changes the entire equation of the move.
It possible to work in Spain and be fine. But finding a job in Spain would be challenging (especially if you're not fluent in Spanish) and the average salary is much lower than the U.S. (but so is cost of living). So, it's possible but not nearly as easy.
I’m happy in Canada but if, hypothetically, mutated polar bears were to force me out, I’d probably try the UK or Australia or NZ as places I’m sure I could adapt to.
Happy Canadian here too, but if I want to move I'd probably move to New Zealand, I've never been there but Peter Jackson made sure I can live there forever with beautiful memories. Even here in Canada when I hike with my dog I think of him as Samwise Gamgee and myself as Frodo Baggins. Frodo won't get far without Samwise.
West Coast Canada now, maybe eventually Netherlands for the better urban fabric and quality of living. North America is in rough place for being so devastatingly car dependent. BC is making some progress in ways, but regressions in others. I want to live in actual nice walkable communities in a country, and continent that has good functional public transit. Along with talks of Canada's annexation
I'm from Greece and I've always dreamt of living there, but through the various turns of life I ended living for almost a decade in the UK first, so now I'm looking to make the move.
(So if anyone from Switzerland is reading this and is looking for an SRE from an EU country, feel free to reach out at cv@ my username.net)
Lately though I've been thinking about Norway as well, though I feel that transition would be much harder.
Antigua Guatemala - most beautiful city I've ever visited.
I've visited 25 countries. Been to Antigua 4 or 5 times and it's so beautiful with the volcanos and the cobblestone streets. High enough altitude to not get a bunch of bugs and low enough to have pleasant weather nearly year round.
I lived in China before and I’ll probably go back there to retire (15 years later). The whole tech advances China is making recently in terms of automation probably make it a really interesting place to do tech if you can get over the internet restrictions.
A wealthy country, great opportunities in tech, beautiful mountains, direct democracy (a system I'm more and more envious of as a EU citizen). Unfortunately I cannot move right now because of family reasons but hopefully in the future.
What chiefly worries me about my country is its unstable political situation, which is something most Western countries grapple with. Specifically, the precarious position of liberal democracy.
I'm thinking about moving from Hungary (Eastern Europe). I used to live in London in my twenties but came home (what is home? I miss the UK) to settle down. But the leading right wing party is poisoning this country for Chinese money so I'm forced to move.
I think with all its problems US is still the best country in the world, but moving there is not an option for me. Even with a H-1B visa or whatever that's called, I don't like the idea of being tied that tightly to my employer. The US is still the source of innovation (imho for cultural reasons). I feel like my spirit is closest to the American one. Love for freedom, self-sufficiency etc.
Since the USA is not an option I'll settle for one of the European countries. Candidates are Spain, Switzerland or Austria.
Reasons are: Spain has cheap properties and amazing nature, Switzerland has an extremely high quality of life and wealth, and Austria is close to my home country.
Feel free to hit me up (email in profile) if you want to know about navigating life in Austria, I moved here from the UK 5 years ago. We also have amazing nature but the properties are not so cheap :)
Hey! Email is not public on HN, if you want to publish it you gotta include it in your about section :). Also how are you with German? I used to speak some but forgot most. Can you get by with English?
I relocated to Zürich from Sweden. I guess I did because of higher social mobility(from working class to middle class, at least in my case) and because of less political law making.
My wife and I moved to the Netherlands last year on the DAFT visa. Nothing political or economic about it - we just want to live a healthier lifestyle in a walkable city.
As a Brit expat having lived in the USA for 40 years UK has many positives.
The coastline - beaches, boating, food, scenery.
The stately homes - every 5 miles there is a huge house that now has open gardens and serves tea.
The seasons - count em all 4 although true that summer can be very iffy.
Travel - cheap package tours anywhere in Europe.
Sport - soccer, rugby, cricket for those that suffer from insomnia and many great golf courses.
For the longest time I wanted to move to Holland to get out of my frame. It was the 1990s and I was going to design school. The art and design permeated the civic space. And lots of Dutch people speak very good English.
There really wasn’t a legal vector for immigration and I wasn’t from a wealthy family, and I didn’t like the idea of illegal immigration, and living without a social safety net. And I’m a bit of a punk when it comes to commercial capitalism, which turned out to not be a winning disposition.
I settled for New York City. If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere.
Currently, Australia. Melbourne and Sydney are amazing cities that remind me a lot of San Francisco and Seattle, the climate is very similar to California, the politics aren't batshit crazy, and the country at least stands a chance of weathering a global war or calamity. English speaking, so easy to hit the ground running. Also, NZ is nearby.
Already submitted my EOIs to the 189/190 black box; waiting for an answer over the last year and a half.
I would have loved to live in NYC for a while, but MAGA seems intent on killing the country dead. I see no bright future here. Maybe things will look different in a decade or two.
FWIW: That Americans wanna expat to "anywhere else" is a semi cold take.
the world is big and i respect other countries for sure. see my other comment about my loving Aussies.
But there's something real important and real deep
about being born in USA. it's a designed shit show.
"give us your weak and poor…" . this is by design. we want the smoke. All cluster fucks of freedom of thought is the point. it's hard to get along.
ok so USA looking real brittle right now. i'm not naive.
but i was raised in this. i love other countries but Ill never shake being a brown boy upper middle class software engineer without college degree in the US of A
While other countries are a lot better than the USA in many ways, the problem for me is that the USA is where New York City is located. I can go somewhere with better weather. I can go somewhere with universal health care. I can go somewhere with better transportation infrastructure. But in terms of being the cultural capital of the world, the alternatives just don’t do it for me. London, Paris, Tokyo, Delhi, Beijing, Sao Paulo, Cairo, Moscow, nopes all around.
I’d rather stand and fight for NYC than move. It may not be for everyone, but it’s the only place for me.
I asked o3-mini-high this question after outlining some criteria that I deemed necessary in a city:
I want to live in a city that:
- Is highly walkable with excellent public transportation infrastructure
- Prioritizes safety for women
- Has clean air and good environmental standards
- Functions as a major hub for either tech or finance industries
- Ideally offers:
* Good work-life balance
* English-speaking environment
* Strong expat community
* Easy travel connections
> Based on your criteria, Amsterdam stands out as a top contender. Here’s why:
Walkability & Transportation
Amsterdam’s compact, historic center makes it extremely walkable, and its extensive cycling culture—as well as an efficient network of trams, buses, and trains—ensures that you can get around easily without a car.
Safety for Women & Clean Environment
The city is known for its progressive, inclusive atmosphere and strong safety standards, which contribute to a secure environment for women. Additionally, Amsterdam places a high priority on sustainability and environmental standards, so you’ll enjoy relatively clean air and plenty of green spaces.
Hub for Tech & Finance
Amsterdam is a major European hub where both the tech startup scene and finance sectors thrive. Many global companies and innovative startups are based here, creating ample professional opportunities in both industries.
Work–Life Balance, English-Friendly, & Expat Community
With its relaxed yet dynamic work culture, Amsterdam offers an excellent work–life balance. Even though Dutch is the native language, English is widely spoken—making it very accessible for expats. The city also boasts a robust expat community, providing a welcoming network and plenty of social opportunities. Moreover, Amsterdam Schiphol Airport offers excellent travel connections to destinations around the globe.
Overall, Amsterdam ticks all the boxes for a walkable, safe, environmentally conscious, professionally vibrant, and expat-friendly city.
Half the time when Western people say they want to move to a different country for economic or political reasons, what they really wish for is to expand their country's borders, take the newly acquired land for themselves (for free or at best a pittance), pay token tribute / taxes to the country they're already in (because taxes are inevitable), and then have their government leave them alone. The problem, of course, is that there's other people who were already on the land that the borders were expanded onto.
Nobody really prefers to move to a country whose common language they do not speak, where they don't know anybody, and where they will forevermore be treated as second-class (due to being an outsider/immigrant) for the rest of their lives.
> what they really wish for is to expand their country's borders
If they're leaving, then this is precisely the opposite of what they wish for. They will as matter of course carry with them the habits and preferences of their previous life wherever they go. No matter the distance traveled, no man can escape himself. But they want as little to do with their own nation's government .
> take the newly acquired land for themselves (for free or at best a pittance),
>pay token tribute / taxes to the country they're already in (because taxes are inevitable),
Who on this planet doesn't like cheap land or paying fewer taxes ?
> and then have their government leave them alone.
This contradicts the first point. Just like natives who we ould like to be left to their own devices almost as if they're normal adults.
When westerners move to a different country for economic or political reasons they are "expats". When other people move to western countries they are immigrants.
I think you are looking for the term migrants. Expats and migrants are both considered immigrants, although migrant workers are generally considered more harshly than expats. It used to be determined by whether you had a package or not. No package, you are a migrant worker, otherwise you are an expat. They called highly skilled foreigners in China without package “half-pats” though, although I think we typically qualified as just highly paid migrant workers.
