Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
Organ playing 639-year-long piece changes chord (bbc.com)
98 points by tigerlily 12 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 75 comments



> His most famous piece, 4'33", is designed to be played by any combination of instruments - but musicians are instructed not to play them.

This is even better played back from a digital recording. You need those gold audio cables to truly appreciate the silence.


John Cage's 4'33" is probably one of the best jokes in music.

I personally learned about 4'33" in a music class, where it was performed live -- basically it was 4'33" of ambient noise, but there was a lot of tension if you didn't know what to expect. During the final exam for the class, the professor would play some recording and we were supposed to identify the music, and all of us would start writing "John Cage's 4 minutes 33 seconds" when the professor was too slow to start the next song.

There was also an incident where apparently Mike Batt copied 4'33" and named his song "A One Minute Silence", which resulted in an 6-figure court settlement[1], although later news said it was just £1000[2]. I also heard a version of the story that they didn't settle at all, because John Cage's publishers couldn't prove which minute out of the 4'33" was copied.

[1] https://edition.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Music/09/23/uk.silence/

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hampshire-11964995


Is there a test of originality for copyright? I wouldn’t call myself vehemently anti copyright but when the idea of “let’s just not play and the ambient sound of the orchestra sitting there is music instead” is the basis for the copyright it does make me question the validity of it. When someone who has done XYZ drug of choice and can come up with that idea in their drug addled state of mind as a pretty good first pass (if I were to to smoke marijuana and you asked me of a clever avant garde music idea, the concept of 4’33’’ is probably be one of the top three I would just list right off the bat not knowing of Cage) I really do question whether you should be able to copyright that idea. It’s even a bit of a hippie meme “what if the music is everything around us? Har har”

By the way I love 4’33” and don’t denigrate it - the way Cage executed the idea is flawless - which is one of the reasons it’s so timeless. I just don’t think it’s something you can copyright. And indeed, the stories you linked indicate that, though rather than point out the ridiculousness of the situation they simply used it as a money and publicity making opportunity.


Seems the solution is the ambient near-silence.

Your performance in your location will have a different ambient near-silence, than mine, or any other performance and circumstance. Since the near-silence is the point of the piece, we have different expressions....?


I think 'idea-expression dichotomy' is the legal concept you're looking for.


I think "transformative use" is the term you're looking for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformative_use


This is a good one, but I think my point is that the original doesn’t stand up to copyright in the first place - so transformative use wouldn’t apply if that was the case


In Cage's original performances, he had a page turner. No joke.


And he performed it on Times Square in New York.


> I also heard a version of the story that they didn't settle at all, because John Cage's publishers couldn't prove which minute out of the 4'33" was copied.

This seems wrong on its face; If I steal the chorus out of a song where it's repeated multiple times and release it as my own, the artist might not be able to prove which instance of the chorus I used.


You jest but there is still something to be heard if it's actually recorded (and not just generated as zeroes), be it in a studio or live. The settings of any performance are themselves part of the performance.


I immediately think of the A Perfect Circle recording done at Red Rocks where the acoustics off the rock formations give an extra depth to the noise. Still one of my favorite live albums of all time.


I thought the point was that they would intentionally seed the audience with one or a couple of people who would storm out in (apparent) anger (if none of the actual audience members got to it first), and thus the music is the experience of the audience reaction to the piece.


I watched a performance of it on YouTube. The performance is the little coughs and sighs and creaks etc that we don't normally hear. I don't think it has a theatral component which needs people to storm out.


You've got to respect high level trolling, it's an art form.


but it's also the easiest piece you can possibly perform, so you can always sing it to yourself and your version will be as good as anybody else's


The orbits of the Galilean moons form a perfectly-tuned triple octave, plus a slightly flat minor tenth (1:2:4:9.4). After a slight glissando, they will likely settle in a quadruple octave (1:2:4:8) and stop there, in about 1.5 Gyr. It's a cross-cutting phenomenon that the natural universe likes to self-arrange itself into chords [4]

https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.01106 ("Long-term evolution of the Galilean satellites: the capture of Callisto into resonance")

via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean_moons#Origin_and_evol...



Its fascinating how the interest and energy around a project like this manages to be self-reinforcing. The idea on the face of it is quite nonsensical: building a machine to make continuous droning sounds for years at a time. How likely is it that the song actually would play to completion? The fascination is that it is not impossible that the effort will succeed, and its already gone far enough to be quite amazing in the attempt. And in the process its achieved a completely new way to experience music. That last part is both shallow (its a pretty boring way to experience music, and its hard to call it music at that time scale) and deep (with this performance, a chord change is opportunity for ceremony and news releases: its an event!).


The human capacity to stretch credulity never ceases to amaze me.


how is it nonsensical?


Because it's not something which will ever be pleasant to listen to, and thus is missing the entire point of music. All for some weird novelty thing.


Not all music is pleasant, nor should it be.


I would still argue that this is not music.

It's definitely Art, in that it is making a statement, provoking a response, etc. But, it's just a nearly continuous sound, except for the pitch change every few years.

It's a Sound, but it's not Music.

If you were to argue that it is Music, I would ask, "Which part of the piece is your favorite? Why do you prefer it to the other parts?" Trying to answer these questions with a straight face becomes difficult.

If this is Music, then is it possible to make an art installation which has making Sound as its primary focus, and have it not be Music?


My opinion has always been that intent is what turns something from sound to music, or from non-art to art. I might pose the question back to you. At what tempo does the piece go from being music to being sound?


>If this is Music, then is it possible to make an art installation which has making Sound as its primary focus, and have it not be Music?

Yes.


its a modern performance art, meaning and signifying nothing.


A friend of mine was a music major and listened to some very experimental music that was not particularly pleasant to listen to.

You really can't ever say what "the point" of art is. The point of art is that every piece has its own point, or none at all.


If this is music then paintings are movies that just haven't had the second frame painted yet.


to you, maybe


Reminds me of the Clock of the Long Now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_of_the_Long_Now



>> began in 2001.

A little clickbaity. I could change chords on a million year long piece (that started 30 seconds ago).


How is that clickbaity? It's playing a 639-year-long piece. You could change chords on a million year long piece (that started 30 seconds ago), but no one would care. This has been playing for 23 years.


Precisely. It doesn't matter how long it is intended to play for. What matters is how long it has been playing. A non clickbait title would have focused on the latter.


One quip: this piece is not "as slow as possible". One could write a piece of "music" that is one note to be played at the heat death of the universe, or a piece that is silence forever. It's fun to play with the definition of "music" like John Cage did his whole career, but the title of his piece is technically incorrect, the worst kind of incorrect.


You're misinterpreting it. It's not a descriptive title at all. It's a tempo indication and like all such is meant as an instruction to the player, also being a play on "as fast as possible" which is a perfectly legitimate tempo marking. Referring to a piece of music by its tempo marking is common.


One can play infinitely more slow than he can fast though.


Not really. If I wanted to finish playing this piece on my own, I'd have to play it at least 10x as fast


It does depend on the definition of "music". A constant tone of infinite duration might not be considered music to all. In my opinion (just rendered now), music must have 20 BPM < tempo < 1000 BPM.


ambient music enters the chat.


I mean, you could play his piece at a speed designed to spread it out evenly from the present until the (predicted) moment when the universe can no longer support the mechanism used to play it. That would literally be "as slow as possible", and seems technically fine.


It's technically fine, but tempo instructions such as this are often just rough guides, rather than an accurate BPM target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo#Basic_tempo_markings

If you check the Wikipedia article for the piece itself[0], it explains:

> Musicians and philosophers discussed Cage's instruction to play "as slow as possible" at a conference in 1997, because a properly maintained pipe organ could sound indefinitely. The John Cage Organ Foundation Halberstadt decided to play the piece for 639 years, to mark the time between the first documented permanent organ installation in Halberstadt Cathedral, in 1361, and the originally proposed start date of 2000.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_as_Possible


"Some people reportedly booked tickets years in advance to experience Monday's chord change"

Clearly they're attention seekers—their rustling about in seats or asleep and snoring from boredom would be far more entertaining than the actual performance.

One has to wonder what kind of people are drawn to a musical event where if it were compared with say Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue BWV 582 then the latter's performance would be seen as a prestissimo running at relativistic speeds. Perhaps social scientists have insights into such strange behavior.

Of course, it's those who've booked tickets who are the center of attention here, such antics have always been expected of Cage.


Its fun! Why are people so excited about eclipses or cicadas?

I don't think everyone is being performative or doing it for attention (what attention)


Total eclipses have no equal—on earth anyway. I've had the great privilege of having seen three over the course of my lifetime. They're not normal experiences, they're something else again.


Some might say the same about hearing a chord change in a 600 year composition


If you're viewing with a crowd of hundreds or thousands, the reaction to the moment(s) of totality can be be a total trip.


Total eclipses are far more common than this event.


Thank the heavens.


It's like they're all afraid of admitting the obvious, because some "famous guy" will tell them they're wrong. If that's not a textbook example of the sin of human respect, I don't know what is.

Foolishness 1, Reason 0.


"Foolishness 1, Reason 0."

A variation on the Emperor's new clothes methinks.


It isn't 639 years but.. Radiohead - Pyramid Song 800% slower (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiKWfcy-Z70)


When I first found a routine that would slow music down without any of the pitches changing, I spent hours slowing down favorite songs to see for how long they'd still be recognizable.


I don't know what possessed me to make this, but here's the voice crack cover of 'Ocean Man' 320x slower (11 hours), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnEc0NZiNbY


I heard that one night after a performance in college, John Cage returned to his room, where his roommate heard him laughing, “I did it! I fooled them again!”

What a character.


I can appreciate mischief directed at bullshitters. John "Troll" Cage.


The closest thing I can think of is the strange art of bell ringing in peals [1], aka change ringing, in which bells in church towers are rung in every possible order. One of the very longest takes 18 hours.

[1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peal


Was a bit disappointed to find that the organ is manually manipulated. I was under the assumption that it was automated.


Actually that makes it considerably more funny for me. There is already an automated piece called Longplayer in London.


>The longest - and slowest - music composition in existence had a big day on Monday - it changed chord for the first time in two years.

That's faster than some pop "music" acts change chords.


Hehe, that's funny :)


Fastest organ piece ever... https://youtu.be/yypr7J4any0 53 seconds !


That may be the fastest performance of The Flight of the Bumblebee on organ, but that's it. It is fast, but what's the fastest piece? In the context of this article, it is about length, so any organ piece under 53 seconds would be faster (and there are plenty). You could also look at notes per second, but I'm not sure this one would win. There are some crazy dense passages in the organ literature.


> While the composition officially started in 2001 - it began with 18 months of silence, and the first notes only rang out in 2003.

That's one way to launch an MVP!


That was a the catchiest part so far but I am waiting for the Marshmello remix, which he’s releasing promptly on the 2640 Ryan Seacrest New Year’s show


I wonder how Seacrest feels about already being "the old guy who has hosted New Year's since forever".


Pretty sure he's a robot or a clone. Cause he took New Year's Eve from Dick Clark, American Top 40 from Casey Kasem, American Idol, and now he's taking over the Wheel from Pat Sajak. Although he did give up ABC's Live with whomever.


At long last, humanity has discovered a more useless use of energy than Bitcoin.


a truly techie comment


I also recommend Lecture on Nothing


Clearly nonsense. But some in the art world give it attention? Do they mean to be ridiculed?

A 'piece' is fundamentally something to be played, or something to be heard. This silly exercise violates both of those. It's not music, it's a stunt, that's clear.

Appeals to some folks' sense of wonder, I suppose.


This is funny.


I am sorry, but this is just dumb to me!


That piece's name? Slow Ass Debussy




Consider applying for YC's Spring batch! Applications are open till Feb 11.

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: