This is not quite related to the article but it struck a chord.
I started losing weight around a year and a half ago. I lost around 68kg, or 149 pounds.
I’ve been surfing almost every day for a year now.
I also took some time off work and almost no social media use.
It’s pretty amazing how one feels like the “typical” obese programmer with a stressful job and how you can actually feel.
If you’re financially stable enough, I can’t recommend enough to take some time off and take care of yourself, you probably don’t know how bad it feels right now and you probably don’t know how good you can feel if you’re anything like me.
I basically haven’t touched a computer since December, and I’m not sure how it will be to go back, I miss some things about programming and I’m considering different challenges to keep that part of my brain active but that allows me to keep surfing daily.
Don’t be afraid of the other side is my only point, it’s truly life and perspective changing.
Edit: btw, if anyone has any ideas of how to work very few hours a week as a pretty decent full stack web dev without too high of a financial aspirations, I’m all ears, people seem too look for all or nothing employees only.
> btw, if anyone has any ideas of how to work very few hours a week as a pretty decent full stack web dev without too high of a financial aspirations, I’m all ears, people seem too look for all or nothing employees only.
I'm starting an experiment next week with a marketeer, where she can work whenever it suits her for how long she wants for a retainer/fixed amount per month. The rate is about 1/4th of a full-time freelance, and the idea is to mutually agree on actions and/or outcomes/results each month.
I plan to do something similar with a very senior dev this summer, who is training for a triathlon and has 2 small kids he needs to look after, probably at 50% of market rate...
The biggest issue when setting up something like this is trust, but as I've worked with both of them before on short stints with a regular daily rate (a few days to weeks), I don't have that issue myself.
For me it's a simple math equation: how much am I putting in, and what will this bring me financially (SaaS license income etc), so I can easily figure out the point where I'll be satisfied with our agreement.
I have high hopes for this experiment, but low expectations. We'll see how it goes.
My best bet for you would be to look for similar opportunities: find someone who pays on commitment/outcome, and doesn't care about hours worked...
Wait - are looking for 100% of the work to be done, but at a fraction of the cost? i.e. instead of everyone pretending to work 8 hours per day 5 times per week they are just going to do work when there is work to do?
This is called "asynchronous work" or "async work"[1]. Do work when it makes sense for you, but get it all done. Async workers should not be discounted.
I wasn't aware "async work" was a thing; thanks for the pointer!
It's a little bit of a hybrid TBH: the question is "what can you aim for given the amount of money I pay you per month, assuming everything goes right?".
For marketing it's simple: I'd like to get x demos scheduled in timeframe y; tell me the plan, including the metrics and conversion ratios that you expect (i.e. content publishing, visitors, activations, cold calls/emails,...), And how much it will cost. If the price/value/risk balance is worth it, I'll commit.
For dev it's about rewrites, migrations, upgrades,... Always well scoped. The dev knows the software and he's a way better dev than me, so I fully trust his judgement.
The important thing here is that it's all about trust, and that these metrics are a best guess and a way to stay informed.
If it's the first time somebody is doing something I suggest to multiply the estimated happy path timing by 3 and start with that, but I understand some things take 1/10th, and others x 10.
From a commitment/risk point of view, actions are important but results are even more important. It's during the negotiation that we will decide whether/how much of the commitment is time -, action- or result-oriented, i.e. I will spend x hours, do y things or deliver z results...
I don't hire toddlers, so I don't treat them or expect them to behave like toddlers. The whole idea of hiring mature people is having to do less of it myself, not more...
The closer the reporting KPIs are to the results, the less work and risk it is for me, so I am able to value it higher. If you get more efficient in a job but we agreed on results, it's your win, not mine....
(For the marketing example, 5 demos are worth more than 100 cold calls, and these are worth more than hours active f.e., so if you get 5 demos in a fraction of the expected timeframe, I don't care.)
It's all a big experiment and I'll have to see how this works out, but if it does I'd love to organize the whole company like this...
Most programmers/engineers only work realistically a few hours per day, if so much.
Veterans bring a wealth of experience, can likely do more in two hours than many others in two days. Like OP mentioned, it is a matter of balance and profit. When both sides of the equation are happy, isn't that what really matters?
Well, veterans will do lots in a day, but it will be conversations, drawings and thinking about exactly what the best thing to do is. They will then spend much, much less time programming than someone green who had a React bootstrap and pre-commit rules up before they knew what they were building.
On your question, We welcome Seniors even few hours a week, especially if you are happy to work on architecture and documentation. Plus we are based out of Tenerife if you want to work from an office and there is a lot of surfing on the island.
Time to lean back and do a double take to witness a little pivotal moment on HN?
The common theme of a tech worker looking for options, alternatives and flexibility, but finally answered casually by an employer who seems to "get it", by offering part-time and being located on a neat island?
Other threads are often a pile-ons of complaints from the employee-side, and half-measures and push-backs from the employer-side. So this is neat.
Yeah, ours is a field where we typically make multiple X what we need to survive. I took 6 months off somewhat involuntarily when COVID first hit and it kind of sucked because of the COVID lockdown, but I could see the potential. Of course resume gaps are a yellow flag at best, and the ol “just explain it was a sabbatical” is realistically not as powerful as people like to think it is. Two people. Identical except that one has a 6 month sabbatical in the work history. Most companies will hire the guy without the sabbatical on record.
It’s a real bummer we can’t work 20 or 32-hour weeks (with proportionally-reduced pay). It’s “40” or nothing, you’re right. Where’s the leverage? We’re supposed to be in-demand. Why haven’t we unionized? Why haven’t we been at the forefront of advocating for workers’ rights? They need us. We’re hard to replace. Hospitality staff are easy to replace. Amazon warehouse workers are easy to replace. Apple retail employees are easy to replace.
To your question, there’s the obvious freelance sites, but also working on open source can be rewarding in more ways than one. I found a couple companies in a conference that were looking for open source solution consultants part time / custom time.
If you can’t find them online, I can check my conference swag to see if I find the name.
Apply for normal jobs that sound interesting. When you get a FT offer as expected, counter with “actually, I’ve reevaluated and am only able to commit X time for the foreseeable future. I’m still very interested in the company/problem space and would gladly entertain compensation relative to my availability. Let’s work something out!”
I think in practice this is going to work about 0% of the time.
In the past I would tell recruiters “hey I meet all the criteria and the salary even looks good, but I’m going to need every Friday off”. The salary looks good @ 32 hours/week, but I’d be underpaid at 40. No one has gone for it. They probably end up with someone not as good (because they’re willing to work for below market) who realistically works at most 32 hours/week anyway. But hey, at least the perception that they’re a good hire is in-tact.
It's because they don't know you yet. It's easy for a gatekeeper like a recruiter to shut the door. The hiring manager, if they do actually like you beyond butt in seat, can get creative. Typically they just have a budget and a unit of work to accomplish, they get to fill in the details.
Also, trying to negotiate 25% less work for same price is not what I suggested. It has to be 1:1 relative for them to view it as equitable. They have a lot of things to think about when considering what's "equitable". If their plan was to grind you for 80 hours and pay you for a "full time 40" then they weren't being equitable or forthright either, and it's very common, so it goes both ways.
You don't want the employer to waste your time, so you should try not to waste theirs. If you want to work for them you should go in assuming they're not trying to deceive you either.
You counter offers for a dozen other things, why not time? All those other negotiables can just as easily blow the "deal" apart but aren't considered a waste of time/deceit. They often aren't pre-aligned on. Even if you pre-aligned on something, the interview process itself can change your opinion. For example, you may agree that a salary of $x would suffice. During interviews, you determine the job is going to be much more demanding than originally expected so you now say you like it but $y is the new price. It's not deceitful, it's quite normal.
I agree your example of a salary adjustment is fine, no deceit there.
The deceit comes from pretending to be qualified for a fundamental job requirement that you'll never meet (the requirement to work full time).
A better example is applying for a job that requires a license and after weeks of interviews you finally get an offer just to turn around and say "actually I don't have a license and I'm not willing to get one, but I hope your offer still stands?". Except it's even worse becuase at least in that case the employer can verify your license right off and avoid wasting everyone's time.
Lying on a resume or application is just not a good look.
Idk about work a few hours a week but with wfh/remote I've been able to surf at lunch breaks. It's not the 3-4 hour marathon sessions I did daily as a kid but it's still fun. Also have been able to do some digital nomad type stuff and get a place, work and surf in places like Bali, Hawaii and Puerto Rico
Count me in as a SWE who would be interested in flexible engagements.
I like to push hard for a few months, and then change with the seasons. I think this is very realistic with most software engineering work. Project based, develop a rapport over time. Request hours with me for the next month and we can get shit done together.
I'd honestly like to be a part of a SWE coop, where we as engineers pool our resources and develop shared assets that we can use for clients. Working almost like a law firm does.
I’ve had a very similar experience to you. Quit my job due to burnout in November, been hiking virtually every other day since then.
I expected to take a year off, but recently my brain has been getting a bit itchy and working on my own stuff wasn’t cutting it. Also, I was eating into my savings a bit too much.
I floated the idea of part time work with my network and a few offers came in. Some project based stuff, some actual part time work. I guess I’m lucky to have a good network, but the jobs are there. Many people want/need experienced engineers but can’t afford a full time offer.
I’ve been doing two days a week for the past month. Sometimes I struggle to switch off as I’m actually pretty excited and engaged. I’m working on improving this. Other than that I’m loving the balance of 2 days on 5 days off - can see myself doing this long term.
If I ever got out of tech, HN would be one of the first things I'd like to kick tbh haha. What keeps you coming back? I don't use social media either but this often feels worse in some ways
HN is on the more tolerable side of social for me. I kicked Instagram years ago, never had Facebook, hate the hustle mentality of LinkedIn, and deleted my Reddit account due to the constant bickering and flame wars.
I find the discourse on HN to be (usually) thought-provoking and largely respectful.
Same here - HN is nice enough as long as you're willing to just not react to people who vehemently disagree with you about something.
As in: knock yourself out, I don't need to get into internet fights about why I think your opinion is ridiculous/oversimplified/ill-informed. If I get a whiff that the person is not going to be reacting productively I just don't reply.
Not him, but I find HN a good tradeoff between Reddit and 4chan.
There are no powerhungry mods that'd ban you without an explanation, but you can still have a conversation without being called homophobic names. The hivemind exists, but the opposition is strong enough that even controversial voices can be heard as long as they are well-argumented.
Congratulations on your progress. But software development isn't even very high on the scale of stressful jobs. It really doesn't compare to being a trader or police officer or ER physician or social worker. We have it pretty easy.
We use the same internal stress response to stress about rent you're not sure you can make as we do to stress out about a lion stalking you. Robert Sapolsky makes the case that this actually ends up having an even worse impact on your health in his book Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers
As a former firefighter-paramedic for 14 years turned full-time software dev I disagree.
Was being a FF-PM stressful? Sure, at times. But there was a LOT of down time, even while on duty. There was banter between co-workers, working out, SLEEPING, watching TV, reading or doing a whole lot of nothing, to help relieve the stress. Majority of calls were very benign so not a lot of stress really. But it was also very exhilarating and challenging. A patient whose vitals were all stable, looked good, talking, etc, etc, all of a sudden turns into a heart attack or goes unconscious. Again, it wasn't the majority of calls but those were the type of calls that we were there for and not the calls were people want to go by ambulance so they don't sit in the waiting room at the ER.
(HAPPENS A LOT!). My normal shift was 24 hours on and 48 hours off. During the 48 hours off I didn't worry about email or office politics (there was some but I tried to not get involved).
My stress as a dev comes from different things. Am I doing this correctly? What is the point of this? Imposter syndrome!! I now work from home so no more co-worker banter. Plus the mentality of FFs is way more juvenile, and fun, than that of an office worker. I could take an hour nap during the day but then I'd feel guilty, which adds more stress.
After 8 hours of sitting in front of a computer my mind is fried and I have little motivation to do much else though I have the desire to do personal computer projects which are left for the weekend. And when the weekend comes I may spend an hour or two at most because now I feel guilty for spending more time on the computer.
Is my lack of motivation not to exercise or work on personal projects due to being a software dev? No, not at all but it does add to it.
Bottom line I didn't worry about "the job" as much being a FF-PM as I do being a dev.
Also, I think working in the jobs like FF, PM, police, ER doc/nurse, it is expected to have high-stress so people approach it differently. But no one thinks a software dev can have stress. Stress is stress, it doesn't matter what causes it. It is a physiological response.
I don’t think that’s how stress works. If you’re prone to stressing about things then you’ll build up failure scenarios in your head relative to what you know.
The ER physician becomes desensitized during residency and learns to fall back on their training; or burn out into another role. Same for the rest.
Now I wonder if there's correlation to a developer's preferred language, and their outlook in life.
Do Gophers live under a shroud of nihilism, while Pythonistas run about their business laissez-faire, leaving issues for others or a future them to deal with?
In my experience, writing Python was often followed by dread of some random exception popping up in production because my unit tests didn't pick it up.
Writing Go was a much more pleasant experience, I always felt like the code does exactly what I want.
Writing Python is great, maintaining it is miserable.
Conversely, writing Go is miserable, but maintaining it is great.
Logically, the best of both worlds my work has arrived at is Python and on-call for more senior engineers... Fuck. The sheer amount of None-type, or object doesn't have member X errors is pretty ridiculous.
Correct. I had a doctor tell me one time that when treating a patient "if you hear hoof beats don't look for zebras". Meaning, take what you see and hear for what they are. Because someone has a headache don't assume they have a brain tumor. I am over exaggerating here just to make a point.
Sometimes - perhaps even often - the victims of burnout have been working (only just!) within their means, until external factors bring additional layers of pressure, causing everything to crash down.
The closer to-the-edge that we work, the less tolerance we have for these factors. We need to consider the headroom needed to weather life's (and the world's) ups and downs. We know that sprinting during a marathon comes at a cost, but the sentiment is less often applied to mental and career long hauls.
I left my job last year to go on sabbatical because of burnout. Only after I left did it fully hit me how major a factor the challenges in my personal life had become, and how impossible it had been to give myself space to heal from what had been happening while still working a high stress PM job.
A long term relationship on the rocks, nurtured through COVID only to end anyway. The passing of a grandparent, and another grandparent, and a dear pet. A car accident (not my fault), and on the list goes.
I’m in a much better place now, but when I was in the middle of these things, my brain tried to convince me I just wasn’t handling the stress at work. It told me I should be able to keep my personal and work lives separate. In retrospect this was all nonsense, but it’s hard to see until you’re able to catch your breath.
The "closer-to-the-edge we work" metaphor just blew my mind and helped me recontextualize so much about some of my struggles for the last few years. Truly, thank you.
I'm also considering a switch but struggle to figure out how to bridge the gap financially. How did you do it? I assume you didn't have a huge list of clients right out the gate.
I had some money saved up and also worked part-time contract jobs in tech while in school. I went to school full-time but my school also had a part-time program that would have made it easier to balance everything.
Feel free to reach out if you want to chat! Happy to connect
Burnout is such a luxury disease. I mean if you don't have a ridiculous American tech salary you won't get burned out. Rather you will try to find other things to make some more money, because you need the money. Is that my yealousy talking? Perhaps but that doesn't mean it isn't true.
> I mean if you don't have a ridiculous American tech salary you won't get burned out.
Burnout is a symptom of overworking, which can happen even outside salaried work environments. It's a common thing where I live, where you're expected to do undocumented overtime until you have completed your work in the eyes of your employer. It's certainly illegal, but rarely ends up in court.
To echo another comment, and expand, yes, and no: humans are built for steady physical activity and occasional mental.
Tech demands often excessive and sustained mental and often, unless the worker is disciplined or otherwise inclined, less physical.
So tech completely inverts what millions of years of evolution produced.
Add to that the “we don’t talk about feelings” thing so common in our societies, for members of a species descended from social, group animals whose others descendants spend much time chatting and grooming and otherwise interacting with one another without stress, and you have burnout, a blanket term for something we are not built to handle well.
I met the author around 10 years ago at the Philly python user group. I remember seeing her switching jobs, rising through the ranks, and going from not knowing what she was talking about to giving presentations in a very short time. At the time I said that she was going to be an absolute star or burn herself out sooner than later.
That said, I feel the same way and haven't accomplished as much. So maybe assuming burnout and maximizing our personal returns should be standard career advice
> assuming burnout and maximizing our personal returns should be standard career advice
I think it should. I also think that the whole self care stuff, mindfulness etc included, should also be based not around helping you to cope with your pressure, but maximizing personal returns and avoiding cumulative stress in the first place.
I don’t know what that would mean in practice specifically, but I definitely wish I encountered the message about prioritizing yourself over your mission more often in the media and in attitudes of people (unless we’re talking about extremes like special forces etc). “You don’t get to your destination by breaking your car” sort of thing.
The problem with tech is that the landscape is changing so rapidly. Businesses can hardly keep up before they are obliterated by a new competitor from nowhere. They spend years and millions developing tech assets that age poorly because everything is moving at light speed.
So often at my job I feel like I'm pissin' in the wind and struggling to build sand castles as fast as I can before the next tide comes in.
Luckily I am excited to work hard and innovate, but it's like sprinting, it cannot be sustained forever. That's the main problem with tech culture: there is no concept of resting, or taking a break. You code at work, and then you go home and code on the latest tech to learn and keep up with the industry.
Almost every single software engineer I know dreams about leaving software engineering. Be it to go live in a cabin in the middle of nowhere or become a humble food truck / cart person.
Any good source on talking about generate steady passive cash flow? I feel that many engineers are asset rich, but cash flow constraints. If such engineer quits their job, they would not be able to sustain their life style, especially when they have more than one kid, even if they are willing to change to a more moderate life style. Of course they could sell their assets to generate cash, but I assume that's not necessarily wise or sustainable.
> I feel that many engineers are asset rich, but cash flow constraints.
In which country? Nearly all developers i worked with in the uk either live with flatmates or rent a property. Their only assets are a macbook pro and pictures of fun holidays. Property owners are rare and most are mortgaged.
In the US. For good or for bad, many engineers benefit from the explosive growth of IT industry that was fueled by both technology/product advancement and by years of low-interest financial policy.
My unrequested personal advice: turn-off the TV and fast-paced social media.
Improved my life quality by miles. Nowadays only listen to radio and read things that matter to me in education or for entertainment. Fast food media is great for dopamine shots at the beginning but toxic for most humans on the long run.
The problem with "Tech Jobs" has nothing to do with tech itself and everything to do with culture. I work a tech job (in Australia though) and work strictly 9-5, I don't even look at emails or team chats outside of work hours.
As a result I have had none of the burnout issues which are rampant in the tech industry. Touching computers is not the problem.
It was me. I finally quit the 5 year cycle and took a long term...hopefully to retirement job...in state government doing tech. Realized I still loved tech and there are still a few jobs that you can work for the better good and get paid. I still believe in the internet of the 90's and that it can be a thing for good. I get to get up everyday and try to spend my fellow persons' tax payer money the best I can. Maybe on a good day actually do some good for less advantaged people.
Oh, I do believe tech itself is also a factor. From the physical conditions (sitting, screens - and the ridiculous office spaces) to the intellectual churn (constantly having to learn, and feign excitement about new technologies that, paradoxically, end up making everything buggier, more complex and often slower in real terms, despite vast improvements in the underlying platforms).
But yes, by and large it's the "culture", the ideology - and the rampant pettiness and toxicity throughout the people stack.
Anecdotally I left a high-pressure high-pay tech job in the US to come back to Australia and work a 9-to-5-except-for-oncall job. I ended up losing about 20kg and regaining a lot of lost productivity. This was ironic, because I was actively trying to be less productive, but cutting out the bullshit leaves you with nothing but actual work.
I think it is an American culture thing. In Europe I worked in tech for at least 20 years now. Take 15 public holidays and 20 to 30 paid vacation holidays, affordable health care and education and yes I make less money then my American counterparts. But I never had "that" kind of stress. There is always some stress...
It’s never a tech jobs or tech itself, it’s either the two: insufferable toxic peers/managers, or the culture as you said in ”work hard, party hard” except.. you never party hard and you are exploited to the core.
This might be why i've never understood the Burnout that seems to be rife in the Tech industry, is it USA centric?
As an Australian developer, I am fortunate to receive 25 days of annual leave along with 10 public holidays, and I make sure to use every single one of them.
Whether it's for international travel or exploring different parts of Australia, I prioritise spending time outdoors, camping, and hiking for a few days.
During these periods, I am disconnected from screens and the internet. In fact, even if I wanted to be online, there is no signal in the majority of national parks or campgrounds which is a great bonus..
Not the OP, but I've been in tech in Australia for over 20 years. When I was young and stupid I worked 80hr weeks, 24/7 on-call for a couple of years and it destroyed me. After that it has been 40hr weeks unless I feel like working longer.
I started losing weight around a year and a half ago. I lost around 68kg, or 149 pounds.
I’ve been surfing almost every day for a year now.
I also took some time off work and almost no social media use.
It’s pretty amazing how one feels like the “typical” obese programmer with a stressful job and how you can actually feel.
If you’re financially stable enough, I can’t recommend enough to take some time off and take care of yourself, you probably don’t know how bad it feels right now and you probably don’t know how good you can feel if you’re anything like me.
I basically haven’t touched a computer since December, and I’m not sure how it will be to go back, I miss some things about programming and I’m considering different challenges to keep that part of my brain active but that allows me to keep surfing daily.
Don’t be afraid of the other side is my only point, it’s truly life and perspective changing.
Edit: btw, if anyone has any ideas of how to work very few hours a week as a pretty decent full stack web dev without too high of a financial aspirations, I’m all ears, people seem too look for all or nothing employees only.