> Then again, I did come to Europe for the rich history, I just didn't think its inhabitants would be so bound by it.
Europe is run as a continent-sized retirement home, by incompetent, hereditary elites who are utterly incapable of grappling with the fact that having a history is not a substitute for having an economy.
I feel for the people of Europe; they deserve better. So many of the smart, lovely people you meet here are stuck on absurdly low salaries in countries without any obvious future other than managed decline. Instead of being offered a future, they're offered endless relitigation of the past.
I earn roughly 4 times in the US what I would earn in France.
Not a small difference.
I’m still going back.
Also, absurds costs of things in the US makes giant salary not that giant as soon as you get kids and plan to provide them with an educations.
Regarding future, my very personal take is that European population will be vastly more resilient to what is coming. (TM)
I’m concerned about the fabric of society itself in the US. You mention future, it’s unclear what’s in it for the USA.
Europeans societies have been thought shit not that long ago and survived somewhat united.
The US last crisis was at home was idk? the civil war?
But i’m sure I’m being dramatic. None the less, it’s jarring.
I don’t want to grow old here and have my kids growing up in a Us culture first.
Again; my personal take. My goal was to shine some lights on the other side POV.
The US is in a perpetual state of internal turmoil. "The good ol' days" never existed. It's very likely the other side of the same "dynamism" coin that produces much of the innovation/growth/power that the US has accumulated.
The Vietnam War was a domestic crisis that involved thousands of domestic terror bombings all across the country, for example.
Yep people who think the US was once some stable well run country need a good history lesson. This comes from an immigrant to the US happy to grow old here.
And just looking at any US city outskirts is telling.
Also, let’s remember the position of the US in both early WW1 and Ww2.
Faschism & racism are not new additions.
But is it getting better?
How is the trend in regard metrics like Gini coefficient and wealth repartition?
What is better before ? Yes, until the 80s, the IRS and middle class were still a thing.
I wonders what will happen to channel future discontentments. What would be the outlets.
My concern is that once it’s become absolutely clear that upward mobility is broken for most, what will be the recourse of the folks left over in the dust?
Oh I remember when terrorist were white and either super Christian, or at least raise Christian.
IRA of course, but also ETA or the Brigatte rosse in France, Spain and Italy.
What does not fit the narrative ?
I see that narrative popping back in French news today with protests against specific water collection stategies ( not the retirement stuff, other protests ) being labeled as “eco-terrorism”.
It looks that any resistance to the capitalism model of land & resource management will be labeled that way going forward ( in France. in the US I’m waiting to see what happen with cop city near Atlanta. As of now nobody heard of it )
In the US the bombings and domestic terrorism and assassinations in the late 60s and 70s were generally done by left wing groups like SDS, weather underground, etc. I’m not as familiar with what happened in Europe around that time beyond the IRA.
Leftist groups. Mostly. Leaning toward communism like the Red Brigades I mentioned. Their motto was bombing stuff, and kidnap/kill politicians. A famous group was “the Bader band” for instance. Acting between Italy, France, and Germany.
Then, they were the independentist group like ETA ( basque people ) and FLN ( Corsica )
Same modus operandis, but geared toward having France and Spain out of their places.
Thanks for the name, I will look those group up.
No right wing group in the US ?
We had some in France. For instance in 62 the “quarteron Francais” try to top De Gaule after he decided to let go of Algeria.
I agree. For a country of patriots, the US has 0% of inner unity. To each their own is what most Americans seem to live by, and I’m sure 9/11 was the first and last time the country United.
Ah, thanks for pointing that out. It sounds super cheesy but I miss common space where people play / mingle / relax / drink. Like a freaking plaza with table and chair and benches.
Those exists of course, just further far and between.
It’s counter intuitive because folk from the US are incredibly friendly and open. Super easy to talk to.
> Regarding future, my very personal take is that European population will be vastly more resilient to what is coming. (TM)
Yup, thanks to the US and UK who saved our asses in WW2 but were then forced to give up Eastern and a large part of Central Europe to the USSR. Fortunately it's also the US who made the USSR bankrupt themselves and let those people mind their own business. And now it's also the usual suspects pumping cash and weapons into Ukraine. At least France has got nukes and a well equipped standing army, which I could not say about other EU states with the possible exception of Poland and maybe the Scandinavians.
As much as the USSR was an unpleasant character. Stating “thanks to the Us and the Uk” without mentioning the role of the red army in the victory against nazi germany is vastly inaccurate.
Just the fact that Germany had to handle two fronts, one of them exclusively fought by USSR should be an indicator of that.
Recent unwrapping of historical communication also show that the US army decide to use nuclear weapon on Japan to end the war; not that much because dragging war is bad for civilian. But also because the red army was starting to pivot to the Asian front. Being done with Europe.
Also, I was mainly talking about village / neighborhood knowing each other and not being as divided as here. But that’s still an interesting point.
I was appalled when sarkozy put France back in NATO, if that make you feel better.
Even in the current geopolitical context I would preferred the US to get out of our hairs. That would probably smack some sense into EU in regards to a shared defense.
Weirdly enough, none of our politicians, or yours except trump, seems to be super into the idea.
I guess NATO yield some dividends, too?
But I was more thinking at resilient community of civilians. Living in village / small town that are livable without that much inputs from the “grid” and without driving miles and miles( because they were build before that support system even existed )
Also, communities where living together is seen as normal, not some hippie or comunist idea.
As a result, elder citizen can lives longer there without need for adhoc care. It’s cheaper to raise kids. Food is cheaper and of better quality. ( farmer markets are where poor people buy food, for instance, not a fancy place for organic ware )
My observations are of rural US and rural France. Of course I’m biased.
The US do not spend this out of their generous hearts. This buys them power and control over Europe. They do that for themselves (of course, all countries look after themselves)
My take is that a lot of Europe has not gone for growth-at-all-cost, in particular with immigration, and so has offset lower salaries with more manageable social programs and lower cost of living generally. There are downsides, but "managed decline" is not necessarily a bad thing. I think western europe is actually going to become an increasingly popular destination for people leaving US + commonwealth countries.
> I feel for the people of Europe; they deserve better. So many of the smart, lovely people you meet here are stuck on absurdly low salaries in countries without any obvious future other than managed decline. Instead of being offered a future, they're offered endless relitigation of the past.
Most of the Europeans I know leave the US as soon as they have kids. Everyone seems to prefer managed decline rather than having their kids attend lessons on what to do if a man with a gun comes into school.
Agreed. There is no real discourse on guns in the US. It’s not maniacs, mental health or politics. It’s guns.
Every discussion on the gun problem leads to vague mentions of better mental health or going back to communal communities. Country’s with far cheaper healthcare can’t solve the mental illness problem, only our lunatics have can’t walk into a store and buy a firearm.
> I feel for the people of Europe; they deserve better. So many of the smart, lovely people you meet here are stuck on absurdly low salaries in countries without any obvious future other than managed decline.
That's funny, because I feel similar for people in the US.
Sure, people in tech have high salaries, but then you have to deal with the insane health care, idiotic prison system and half the country supporting an openly fascist and lying president (among other things).
What continent do you think of when you say Italy (Meloni) or Hungary (Orban)? Also last I checked, Europe had dictators until 70's (Greece, Portugal, Spain) and communists until 80's (Warsaw pact countries). So doesn't look so nice out there.
What does 40 years ago have to do with ‘not looking so nice’ today? School shootings, crack zombies everywhere, massive imprisonment and capitalist healthcare look a bit worse from this side actually today. Actually if I would not travel to the US often for work, I would think it is a PKD story.
> What does 40 years ago have to do with ‘not looking so nice’ today?
GP comment ("You don’t really think Turkey or Hungary when you think of Europe") is ignoring the reality even today. And also shows a lack of geographical /cultural knowledge, that they deny Hungary being a part of Europe.
Yeah this is the double standard here. Whenever US haters on HN compare the US to Europe they only compares it to France, Germany, Sweden, etc. to prove that the EU is a better place to live, but forget that the EU also has Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, etc.
But then the other side needs to stop comparing the highest living standard states to all of Europe.
HN Americans like to talk about the tech salaries in CA, WA, and maybe NY and conveniently forget the problems in MS, LA, WV.
Either way it's a slightly lopsided comparison, because Europeans see their nation as a bit more sovereign than the average American sees their state. Except maybe Texans.
Especially with the language barriers a lot of Europeans never consider moving "states". If I move from Germany to Switzerland I might face racism. If an Oregonian moves to California they probably won't.
This comment here is proof that europe is stuck in the past. The countries you mentioned are all vastly more developed than most of the world yet somehow you feel the need to remind folks that they lag behind others in europe. And no wonder they do considering how hostile europeans are towards them.
> Europe is very diverse and I'm comparing the US to the Scandinavian countries, as that's where I live.
Sweden somehow had an even worse policy than the US for dealing with COVID. Scandinavia is home to some of the largest white nationalist movements in the world.
Let's not pretend it's all roses here in Europe. Britain keeps electing Tories and effectively elected Boris Johnson. France damn near elected Marine le Pen. Nationalists control Hungary and Poland. About a quarter of Italy's parliament is far-right.
Don't get me wrong, I emigrated from the US in large part because of the political landscape, but Europe is not immune, or even close. And, really, the US is also "very diverse" -- plenty of states are generally well-governed.
Europe is run as a continent-sized retirement home, by incompetent, hereditary elites who are utterly incapable of grappling with the fact that having a history is not a substitute for having an economy.
I feel for the people of Europe; they deserve better. So many of the smart, lovely people you meet here are stuck on absurdly low salaries in countries without any obvious future other than managed decline. Instead of being offered a future, they're offered endless relitigation of the past.