Musk getting very political is going to have an impact on people who drive EV's for reasons that may be somewhat political, and politically opposed to where he's going. Will his politics draw in people on the other side who were previously skeptical of EV's? I have no idea, really, about the numbers involved in either case.
We were about to be a two Tesla house this year and now there is 0% chance we’ll be that after the latest shenanigans. Although my car is well made, I’m a little embarrassed to drive it around now.
We’re a 3 Tesla household. I have no regrets. Telsa is made up of tens of thousands of workers. Elon is one person. The org will outlive him.
If I made my purchasing decisions according to the personal failings of the corporate executive teams of all of consumer and durable goods, I might as well live in a tent in the woods.
Used Tesla pricing going down is great, makes EV mobility affordable for the less well off. If you associate with someone who judges you for your vehicle purchase, find better people!
Buying a Tesla has a direct impact on Musk’s wealth and ability to lobby and spread his values, which are diametrically opposed to mine. I’ll spend my money elsewhere.
When you buy a Tesla, I doubt Elon gets a check in your name for some percentage of the purchase price. Tesla is a company with many investors, Elon being one of them sure but conversely I’m sure there are a number people you like/support that also have a vested interested in Tesla’s success.
"Support [company] because maybe some of your friends invested in it" is a really lame argument that could be applied to virtually any company. Support Exxon because the firm that manages your grandmother's pension might be invested in Exxon... please. All this argument leads to is uncritical cheer-leading of everything.
B. The parents smart phone contains cobalt from the Congo.
C. That the parent isn't doing anything to minimise their purchase of new phones by using them longer, only buying second hand etc.
And that's all assuming that this is indeed a value they hold.
And even with all that, there's plenty of stuff wrong with the world. For a multi thousand dollar purchase I'd spend more time thing about the ethical implications than something that is smaller. We all have to pick and choose our battles, I don't think you can damn anyone for not being happy about the system but still engaging with it.
yes agreed why not choose the most egregious then if you are taking a moral stance. Children digging out cobalt with their bare hands for your EV should outrank whatever stupid stuff elon is doing. no?
Right but if there's a choice of 2 EVs without Congolese cobalt, you can choose the one that isn't Tesla.
But anyway, humans aren't perfectly rational beings. Elon being a nob on twitter is more immediate to many people than abstract children in the Congo. I'm not saying that's morally correct, but it's how people work.
Could you explain what point you are trying to make? All of your posts in this thread seem to assume the person you are responding to said the opposite of what they actually said.
Above the poster said they would not buy a Tesla and you implied they would be supporting child miners by doing so? Where the article you linked associates Tesla with child labour in cobalt mining.
Here the poster said ending child labour was a 'win' and "how are child miners 'winners'" - aren't you in agreement that ending child labour is a 'win'?
Apologies for not being clear. I was being fairly serious --- if we could actually prevent predatory mining practices that would actually be a huge win, and it would also be great if cell phones (and specifically smart phones) were no long ubiquitous.
But by the same reasoning your individual vote is also immaterial. Since you clearly wouldn't waste your time voting, how do you move the needle on laws and regulation?
> If I made my purchasing decisions according to the personal failings of the corporate executive teams of all of consumer and durable goods, I might as well live in a tent in the woods.
Elon Musk's involvement with the companies he is associated with is not the usual involvement that an executive team would have. His personal brand is intermingled with the products he sells and cars are a way of signaling social status whether we like it or not. There are certainly people for whom buying a new Tesla would decrease their social capital which could have negative impacts in other areas of their life (relevant to HN, social capital converts to actual capital in many cases by opening up business opportunities).
We're in a grace period right now when it comes to driving a Tesla, where people who already owned one can't really be blamed for supporting Musk, but the day has already arrived when buying a new one will signal poor taste and lack of social acumen to much of the white collar class.
Vulgarity is relative so if your crowd isn't this crowd, fine. But you can't blame people for wanting to avoid putting stigma on themselves when there are other EVs on the market nearly as good as Teslas which don't have the same toxicity.
> Saying something like that in real life would get you laughed at.
All you've told me here is that the people you personally associate would laugh at the idea that Tesla is a toxic brand. The world is not made up of a single social group with a single set of norms. In the groups I associate with, and no we are not blue haired SJWs I am married with a family in the suburbs and work a boring corporate job, Tesla is toxic.
Some things I try to keep in mind as much as possible:
- We are all operating from different frames of reference.
- Social networks are fundamental to our survival: people will go to great lengths to stay in the good graces of their families, friends and associates.
- "Society" is a huge tapestry of interlocking social networks, each with its own internal logic and reward systems.
- The logic and reward systems of the most powerful networks tend to leak into all the others over time to some degree.
Oh no, signaling poor taste. The travesty. Let others live their life according to the whims of “the white collar class.” I’m going to enjoy what I enjoy, and I’d like to associate with like minded folks.
I said that if you don't associate with the crowds I'm talking about it doesn't matter.
Ironically pretending that we don't play social signaling games and critiquing others for playing them is itself a sort of social signaling game. These games can't be avoided because they are a fundamental part of human interaction, so much so that when we aren't good at playing those games for whatever reason we are unable to function properly in society and are pathologized as a result.
A car specifically might not be important to you as a signaller but if you do want to associate with like minded folks you are going to seek to emulate and fit in with those groups. That's kind of how society and humans work.
Sure, you do you. Plenty of people fly confederate flags, and they have every right to do so. Just as other people have every right to judge them. This is the way.
Sounds like some stuff bored 1800s European aristocrats would care about, busy living their now pointless performative lives while revolutions are brewing and the industrial revolution is about to put the petite bourgeoisie in control of everything.
I understand what you are implying. Elon Musk has aligned himself with what appears to be a power structure that aims to replace the current dominant social order. If a social revolution comes due to war, economic restructuring or some other black swan event and The Daily Wire becomes the new CNN and Saturday Night Live skits come straight from The Babylon Bee, yes, the crowd that sees Teslas as toxic will be marginalized.
We'll see if that comes to pass. I'm guessing it won't, but if it does I'll adjust accordingly to the new reality as will we all.
You're treating it like people who would judge you based on the car you drive make some kind of high-minded ethical choice, but they're in reality looking for a reason to get their peers to accept a smaller group of people that still includes them, because that makes them relatively speaking higher status. They can't just make things up because they couldn't coordinate around that, but with Elon acting like a lighthouse, they can invent a new norm and benefit from being the first to adopt it.
It's not a group that's like this, it's a widely distributed human behavior (I'm not quite cynical enough to call it a universal human behavior although some would.)
They're not a group in the sense of "an in(out)group." That would require some kind of identity. It's a behavioral tendency in the sense of having a short temper or being gregarious, rather than a belief system or a club.
If you’re going to make the “there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism” point, then why bother with an EV?
For the same price, you can get a nicer ICE.
That is why Elon’s actions are so weird. I agree with you that a chicken sandwich or paper towel executive can do whatever, but EVs are a status and signaling thing…
That is your opinion, which you’re of course entitled to. My Teslas are, to me, the best cars I could buy. That’s value. I’m looking forward to my Cybertruck as well.
Ok. And I think being able to fill up at a gas station in 5 minutes is one of the most critical features a car can have. Most drivers agree.
The point of EVs for the time being is minimizing inconveniences (charging) and maximizing intangible value (virtue signaling, being “the life of the party” with your built in cooler/outlets, having a futurist interior with a bad but polished infotainment panel, etc etc).
Elon is cratering one of those things rn and it does feel like a Howard Hughes moment. Hey maybe there’s something about launching satellites! Who knows!
Less effective than strikes on Russian infrastructure and military personnel. If collective oil price ceilings and similar economic sanctions make some feel better, proceed, it costs very little to do so. Most unfortunately, peace is arrived at through superior firepower.
Elon is a loud mouthed idiot, but the world is full of loud mouthed idiots.
What's lasting, however, is that reputation for making poorly built vehicles. Even today, people would rather buy Japanese, Korean, or German than to buy, say, a buick. All because the reputation for making poorly built vehicles was never shaken by some American auto makers. I think Tesla will suffer the same fate, because to date, they haven't even conceded that they may have an issue.
I believe the best answer here is a well-needed step back from CEO worship. Musk didn't build these cars, and yes, the CEO has an impact on things, but probably not as much as some people think. An interesting counterpoint to Musk's latest shenanigans: perhaps his companies were successful despite him?
> yes, the CEO has an impact on things, but probably not as much as some people think.
Considering the fact that he is the CEO of at least 3 huge companies, and that he has the same 24 hours/day as the rest of us, many of which he spends shitposting on Twitter, it’s clear CEO is at best a part time job (at least the way Musk does it).
The guy expects his workers to put in 80 hours a week at their jobs. At best completely foregoing sleep, he can do the same for 2 of his CEO roles, meaning that one is going completely neglected according to his own standards.
Hero vs. vilain real life storytelling is something we see too much of, and I'm always amazed that otherwise smart people partake in this without seeming to realize. Is it just me or hasn't everyone been taught that idolization (and it's reverse) is generally not good?
Musk played into the hero narrative for years, endeavoring to make people believe he was the literal savior of humanity. He's spent years encouraging people to have extreme characterizations of him. Neither a great hero nor a great villain is a nuanced character, and therefore one can easily become another when the context changes.
Blame is often less useful than people think. Is it the audience's fault for falling for it? Or is it Musk's fault for encouraging it? I'm not sure that it really matters. The lesson should be clear, though. CEOs can't save the world, and people who have been successful previously may still be foolish in the future.
He certainly did it, every time he said that SpaceX's purpose was literally, not figuratively, to save humanity. He was positioning himself and Tesla in the same sort of way; 'buy my EV to save the planet.'
In any case, I have no hero worship to apologize for. Not with regard to Musk anyway.
I also planned to go from a leaf+tesla household to a double-tesla household, but likewise recently had a change of heart.
However, for me it's because I've been blown away with the versatility and dependability of the model Y so I see no reason to get a new car for the next decade.
Everything Elon has done on Twitter over the past couple months. My mom is in the same situation; she was considering a Tesla but now won't be caught dead in one.
Supporting the Russian invaders, calling for prosecution of Fauci (for what crime? And doubly ironic considering his tweets about how covid would be down to 0 cases by April 2020), tweets supporting Kanye, joking about sexually harassing his employees, spreading baseless conspiracy theories from disinfo sites like the Santa Monica Observer, etc
I'd like to think he's just being an edgelord to drive engagement on his platform, but considering he tweeted stupid stuff before he owned twitter (eg accusing his critics of being pedophiles), I have my doubts.
I don't think that follows at all. Twitter is quite unimportant to me: I don't tweet, and very rarely look at anyone else's tweets either. Yet I'm fairly aware of Musk's behavior during and since the takeover, and while I admit I already had a somewhat negative view of him thanks to some earlier episodes, the Twitter saga has well and truly poisoned his personal brand (in my view).
Wait until you find out Henry Ford’s politics. Or Volkswagon’s history. Although obviously it’s not as bad as a man promoting free speech and criticizing postmodernism.
Sure, plenty of other carmakers have committed vile sins. But the Musk Twitter nonsense is very current, which makes it harder to stomach than Henry Ford's anti-semitism over 100 years ago.
And let's not pretend Elon is sticking up for "free speech." He's censoring folks who don't agree with him. That isn't free speech, unless you subscribe to fascist definitions of "free speech."
> Users were banned for impersonation, which was against the rules prior to Elon.
Musk said he was going to only ban people for violating the law. It is not against the law to parody someone without identifying that you are a parody. Musk banning these accounts may be fine from your perspective, but not from an absolute free speech perspective.
> 2) Banning the jet tracker, while wrong, makes sense
Doesn’t make sense from the perspective of free speech absolutism. A lot of the bans pre-Musk made sense, like banning Trump for using the platform to foment insurrection. But Musk railed against those actions as examples of censorship, and promised not to operate that way. Instead, he is operating exactly that way. I don’t have a problem with that as it’s his platform, but he 100% went back on his promise as soon as he got control.
> Edit: I can’t reply to you because of dangs rate limit. Your articles are complete bullshit.
You’ve been rate limited for a reason. Please don’t try to get around the rate limit by editing your posts.
Surely there's no difference between people who have been dead for decades and someone who chooses every day to actively put himself in the spotlight by doing stuff ranging from stupid to awful.
Really sad fall from grace for Elon. Could've just kept working.
I mean, I think you’ll find that Henry Ford is dead.
In general, “past, extremely dead, person was awful; this excuses the current awful person” is _not_ a great argument. It also seems to be a fairly new invention; I’ve only really seen it in the last decade.
Not even going to address the free speech thing, except to say that you must be using a very 1984 “war is peace” sort of definition there…
He's running Twitter in a very erratic manner and demonstrating very poor judgement. It's completely reasonable not to trust someone like that with your family's safety.
He is banning people sometimes for policies he introduced after the fact, sometimes without policy violations at all. “Free speech” is just not a defendable position for his behavior, he does not subscribe or support free speech.
Except he banned a bunch of journalists discussing him using a policy he introduced after the fact, and in one case, without violation at all. His active actions, not pre-existing conditions, reveal his preference against free speech.
Who is banned from Twitter now that Musk banned? The lunatics that ran it for years banned people wantonly with vague reasons without any remedy for 5+ years in some cases.
Musk revealed files implicating the FBI, CIA and Pentagon but oh my God he voted Republican so he’s evil!
Is he promoting free speech? Last I heard he had deleted a load of journalists accounts, before that it was deleting parady accounts. What concrete thing has he done for free speech other than offer trump his account back?
Why would you do something that embarrasses you? You're obviously well enough off if you were planning on having two Tesla vehicles. Get rid of your Tesla and bring your self in congruence with your virtues.
The only punching down happening is the media campaign against the man. He's still solidly for saving the planet and that hasn't changed. He just sees that there's now additional existential risks that are looking to prevent him from doing that coming from the political side because they're gaining control of the means of communication. This is his attempt to fight back against such forces that are much larger than himself.
I wonder how aligning with the conservative wing of global politics who are so aggressively against the climate change mitigation agenda shows he is "solidly for saving the planet".
That viewpoint is dying out in the conservative wings of global politics, it's still there, but it's not nearly as front and center, and the few times such views have been expressed to Elon from said conservatives, he's countered them. You don't have to agree with everything someone says to still agree with many things.
I doubt the effect of his politics is huge. Most people are totally unplugged from politics, and a lot of his buyers were Republicans anyway. Even the progressive people who hate him may still buy the cars because people don't often act on their beliefs.
I suspect the following have had bigger effects on their sales:
- Tesla being at the bottom of quality rankings (and lots of evidence of major quality issues)
- increasing numbers of fantastic EVs sold by other companies at all price points
- bad PR related to "FSD" and "Autopilot"
- higher interest rates preventing financially irresponsible people from buying cars for status
I would argue that Musk's Twitter obsession has an outsized effect because i) it is all over the news and even apolitical people get it ii) even a chunk of republicans find it weird (e.g., even Gutfeld on Fox is making unfavorable jokes about Musk) and iii) many Tesla buyers are left-leaning (in Europe, the mainstream is left of the US Democratic establishment), which means for core markets and demographics, a Tesla car can no longer be used as a status symbol.
Of course, the writing was on the wall without Musk buying Twitter: Teslas are now ordinary, mass-produced cars and traditional car manufactures catch up on electric. At the same time, electric cars are still mostly for relatively wealthy people, which means it is appealing to buy an electric car that's not a Tesla in order to stand out more.
I think your second paragraph is imperative. The question was always what Teslas headstart in EVs would mean. Fundamentally it might just turn out the answer is "not very much".
I question the assertion that a typical Tesla customer is “totally unplugged from politics”. Why should I believe that the relatively small percentage of people that can afford a Tesla are also not at least politically influenced in their purchasing decisions?
Yeah - agree on this. In my anecdotal experience, Tesla owners typically are educated professionals who are well established in their career and/or finances. They're also 90% homeowners because of the charging logistics (charger in garage). Unsurprisingly, these people are also typically invested into politics.
Myself, I cancelled a Model 3 order and went with an EV6. I already had my doubts, and his politics were the straw that broke the camel's back. If the Model 3 had been a slam dunk purchase, I probably would have still bought it.
In America, car culture is strongly correlated with identity. Ford said "They can have any color as long as it's black." His competitors capitalized on this mistake - people wanted colored cars. Since the 1920's colored cars are the norm.
Large trucks are often seen as an ideological alignment to the point that people advertise affiliations (political or otherwise) with bumper stickers, window stickers, tailgate wrappers, bed flags, etc. When I was looking for a Honda Accord my own brother pushed me to get a truck instead because it aligned more with "who I was as a man." Needless to say I rolled my eyes out of my head and bought my Honda Accord.
And, with Tesla. Many EV adopters I know get satisfaction from not needing/burning gas - it's why you get an EV. Very often part of that satisfaction is that they're choosing a more environmentally sustainable option, and there's a correlation with climate politics there.
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In my anecdotal lived experience, and with my limited understanding of automotive history, I really think there's a correlation with what car you drive and what your ideologies are, political or otherwise.
I think that any prudent CEO (or hell any other employee) would publicly shut the hell up right now. Part of Tesla's success is people ideologically hitching themselves to the EV bandwagon (and subsequently Musk). And, I think Musk getting spicy in the public forum is a bad thing for this all around... and apparently so do the shareholders.
>Ford said "They can have any color as long as it's black." His competitors capitalized on this mistake - people wanted colored cars. Since the 1920's colored cars are the norm.
This was founded in a technical decision. Paint technology at the time was not great and could deteriorate in short order if not properly applied. The colored paints had to be painstakingly applied in multiple coats over many days. Which required having enormous lots devoted to nothing but watching paint dry. Black paint was more forgiving and a quick application still looked reasonable, allowing units to be produced more quickly.
Neither of your examples (Ford not selling colorful cars, and your brother wanting you to get a car for macho reasons) seems to have anything to do with people choosing an automotive brand for political identity reasons.
"Truck or not truck" is plausibly a political identity matter, but "truck" is not a brand. Such people will like a truck from any truck company, if that truck is perceived to be big and manly enough.
The comment I was responding to says they don't think Elon's politics will have any bearing on car sales, because "because people don't often act on their beliefs." Paraphrasing.
The line "because people don't often act on their beliefs" is what I found most egregious in regards to the automotive industry because, yeah - I think lots of people do purchase vehicles based on their beliefs (ideals). I shared some learned history and lived experience around that topic to rebut.
Not looking to change anyone's world view with my comment here. I don't think I'm too far out-of-line with I'm saying: many people do buy cars based on their ideals (beliefs).
The closest example I can think of for people avoiding a car brand for political reasons is "Greatest Generation"/Boomers refusing to buy cars from Honda, Toyota and other Japanese companies because of Pearl Harbor, but most of them relented eventually because the value of Japanese cars was undeniably better.
This is not to say that Tesla won't suffer for Musk-induced political reasons. But I don't think this is the primary mechanism behind Tesla's downfall. Rather, I think Musk's political flailing has punctured his reality distortion bubble, so Tesla is returning to the value it rationally should have been at the whole time. It has always been a fringe manufacturer, propped up by unrealistic fantasy about the near future.
I think his political turn is contributing to the collapse of his "reality distortion machine", returning his overinflated companies (with values based on fantasy expectations about the future) back to reality. His politics are the shock many people needed to start thinking critically about the entire situation.
Particularly, the FSD illusion is collapsing. People are starting to realize that "your car will earn passive income as a robotaxi" won't be happening and in no way justifies Tesla being worth more than car manufacturers who make orders of magnitude more cars.
Our Ford Escape is nearing the end of its useful life, and we are looking into an EV to replace it. Tesla Y is not going to be it, because it's small and expensive, not because of politics. I think a lot of people are in a similar boat, and if a cheaper EV of a similar form factor showed up it would see a ton of demand.
The Chevy EV SUVs that are coming out next year seem very compelling in terms of price and range. We just replaced my wife's RAV4 with an EV, and we went with the ID.4. You'd probably be happy with that coming from an Escape, though it's still on the pricey side.
If you look at the specs, of the 3 of them the id.4 is generally the smallest. There are some metrics where it comes middle (more front headroom than the ford but less than the Tesla) but in general if you think the Tesla is small you’ll think the VW is small.
We decided against the Tesla for various reasons, so it was down to the ID.4 and the Mach-e. Unfortunately the Ford is much pricier (probably due to the $7500 credit it qualifies for)
The twitter thing isn’t just politics; his antics have also pretty much comprehensively smashed the idea that he’s a magical visionary genius. Now, not everyone bought into that before, but it was a pretty common view a few months ago. It’s pretty fringe today.
Musk, as the face of Tesla, chose to align himself against a big chunk of customers and potential customers. At the same time as consumers finally have options for buying an electric car.
Given that Tesla's can take months to get repaired when they have even relatively minor mechanical issues, who in their right mind would be a used one?
There might be more to it, but it sure seems like not. There’s been a boom in EV demand every time gas has gone up, and it’s fallen off when prices drop. This used to happen with hybrids too, same cadence.
From what I can tell as a Tesla owner that responds to a lot of Tesla Internet comments, teslas appeal historically has actually been broad politically. The biggest limiting factor of appeal is price, with a lot of people either perceiving the vehicles as expensive for their value or just being hopelessly priced out of luxury car prices generally.
From that perspective, people dig into anecdotes about repair costs, motor/battery replacement, electricity costs, cold weather, etc to self-justify.
I don't see a lot of ideology-based resistance or support for that matter.
Hard to tell whether the FSD debacle is more or less of an influence than the politics. At first there was all kinds of video showing Tesla avoiding accidents. Now all the videos seem to be about how careful you have to be to avoid plowing into a pedestrian or a concrete planter. Or how poor the auto-parking is compared to electronic vehicles from other manufacturers. Tesla's software features have gotten objectively bad.
He really didn't change that much. The "left" did not have a problem with his tweets or Tesla autopilot failures before he took over Twitter.
Only when he threatened their censorship and their incomes, which are largely based on creating narratives and inventing new social justice causes, the "left" started to lash out.
I do think the TSLA related issues have little to do with the backlash and more with various economic fundamentals.
> Will his politics draw in people on the other side who were previously skeptical of EV's?
Not a snowball's chance in hell. The hangup most people have with EVs is the price and the uncertainty that the car would sustain their lifestyle (which is particularly a concern for people living outside of cities.) It was never "EV car execs are insufficiently conservative."
I agree. I had a hybrid, ended up buying a Tacoma with plans to buy an EV in the future when there's more value per dollar in them. I'll probably continue to own both as I have use for a truck. There's a lot of unanswered questions about what to do with aging batteries, towing capacity is awful, and road trips in EVs are hairy. I've always viewed them as a rich city person's luxury toy.
There's an entire half of the population that's on the other side of the matter that will now be similarly interested in buying for the same reasons that the other side is now against buying. However most don't and won't care.
Everyone wants this to be about politics, but that elides the fact that he looks like an utter clown every day to anyone who understands software, social media, or finance.
I'm in Houston, where pickups reign supreme. I don't know a single pickup truck driver considering the Cybertruck, and even among those who aren't pro-EV, they are warming to the idea of the F-150 Lightning. Pickup truck drivers tend to be very loyal to their chose brand.
Only the techies here and the Tesla stock bag-holders who bought at the top of the bubble care about Musk's political leanings. Tesla has been doing just fine despite the competitors catching up which I already expected to happen as the stock was priced in years ago due to the hype. [0]
This comment sounds like a overreaction due to Musk taking over Twitter. Generally, people couldn't care less and are still buying and driving Teslas just like how many people still choose to drive Volkswagons despite the founder of the German Labour Front, Adolf Hitler being the founder.
Little to no one cares about the political stances other than the techies and bag-holders here as the cars are fine. Anything that is worth the criticism would be the safety of the FSD system which is a total scam that is rightfully under investigation and puts the lives of drivers on the road at risk.
And yet living there I can tell you I see way more Camrys. Even in LA Tesla is a luxury subgroup vehicle and luxury vehicle owners are very sensitive to fashion/social signaling (here maybe even more than elsewhere!).
True, but your average Joe has no idea who's the CEO of Ford, GM, and any other major car manufacturer. And they definitely have no clue about their politics or antics.
Fame cuts many ways. Steve Jobs played it pretty well but it's a hard game to win.
Your average Joe didn't know who Mike Lindell was until a couple of years ago either (even with his ads on news channels). Among a certain crowd, Musk is being hailed as a champion of free speech and a warrior against cancel culture. These are not Tesla drivers.
I'll spoil this pleasure for you: he's a guy who sells pillows online and vocally supports Trump. Seems quite unhinged, possibly related to his long-term drug abuse and eventual religious conversion.
Barely knowing anything about Musk is sufficient to know enough not to want to buy his cars.
If the only thing I knew about him is what he called one of the Thai cave rescuers, that would be sufficient to not want to buy his car. I don't have to keep "up to date" on anything he says.
A couple of years ago, yes. Now, many know who he is, even if it's through the Facebook grapevine. The political climate has absolutely elevated many who previously were unknown or (Mike Lindell, for example)
>> I think this is vastly overblown. Your average Joe barely knows who Elon Musk is.
This may have been true last year, but Elon has been all over the news for the past six months, so it's difficult to argue that the average person "barely" knows who he is.
If we’re going to make “average Joe” arguments then I’d like to see why someone believes that someone that can afford a Tesla is average given median income distribution in almost any country.
That parent implied average people affect Tesla revenue, so asking if they can afford the car is very relevant. Only opinions of potential buyers actually matters.
Elon’s Twitter posts have zero impact on anything related to the car. The people allowing that to shape their purchasing decisions are underdeveloped emotional children.
Adults buy a vehicle based on specs, price, build quality, and style.
> Elon’s Twitter posts have zero impact on anything related to the car.
Elon’s personal brand has been a big part of Tesla’s appeal, it either falling overall or realigning to be most attractive to a group not otherwise inclined to prefer electric vehicles is going to have an impact on Tesla demand, whether or not it logically should, just as it (positively) impacted that demand, whether or not it should have, before.
> The people allowing that to shape their purchasing decisions are underdeveloped emotional children.
You calling people “underdeveloped emotional children” doesn’t reduce the actual number of them or the effect their preferences have on the market for the car.
> Adults buy a vehicle based on specs, price, build quality, and style.
Cars remain on the road typically for over a decade now, and Tesla takes unusual steps to force use of their own services for maintenance; purely tangential image issues (which nevertheless are real market forces) aside, this creates a rational reason for Tesla demand to be more than usually sensitive to ability to trust the company and its leadership into the future.
I think this is true for the majority of working class people, but my feeling, just from talking to others is that when you're in the market for a Tesla you have the money to be a bit more choosy and start to care about stuff. Musk is inexorably linked to Tesla. I know two people who have backed out of a Model Y purchase last month.
I care deeply about people in categorizes Musk cruelly mocks. I don't care what my neighbors think of my sense of style.
Even if you pursue style that's no guarantee you'll succeed. there's a reason there's a stereotype of balding middle aged men buying fancy cars to compensate for perceived inadequacy.
Therein lies the rub, style is not such a rational quantitative and empirical metric; it's "emotional". The brand has become less stylish because the man who owns it is becoming very unpopular.
That does not follow. I was in the market for an EV and considered a Tesla and now I just get a bad feeling when I see one. I have many friends who think the same and it's 100% to do with Musk, as I associated him with the brand as do a lot of other customers. It's of course illogical, but humans are very illogical..
Tesla's ICP are highly educated affluent liberals who believe in climate change, vaccines, women's rights, lgbt rights, and so on. They buy expensive EVs to make a statement and contribute to green economy. Musk is very quickly alienating these people.
Imagine if Trump sold cars.
And you continue your toxic language in virtually every musk related thread.
Well, far on the "other side" are people who do coal running (black exhaust) and ICEing (blocking EV charging spots). So peer pressure (a very big thing at the extremes) has moved closer to the center, so that's one limiting factor.
Rolling coal is the practice of modifying a diesel engine to emit large amounts of black or grey sooty exhaust fumes—diesel fuel that has not undergone complete combustion. It is a predominantly North American phenomenon (more specifically in the United States and Canada), despite being illegal.
I guess calling the tow company is very effective at curbing the second behavior. I suspect peer pressure will reduce how commonplace it is over the coming years - I’m stretching the meaning of peer pressure here, but the risk reward is all out of whack in that your reward is an irritating but minor stunt and your risk is discovering your car is no longer where you left it.
Tesla cars have consistently been rated as one of the worst brands for initial quality (e.g. by JD Power who ranked them last) and for reliability (e.g. by Consumer Reports who ranked them 2nd to last)
A new car is a new car though and I'm sure it's gonna be great regardless of the brand. But it's pretty well established that the build quality is extremely lackluster compared to other brands
I think many people base their entire impression of teslas based on these reports, which are at best incomplete truths/summaries.
Things that I can attest to (for HN folks who may be considering a Tesla):
1. Model Xs always have problems. The gull wing doors often have issues. It wouldn’t surprise me if this is bringing the rating of the entire brand down.
2. The first 6 months or so of production of any new model (not refreshed, just new) has been super sketchy. Tesla does not do this well. That said, they seem to clean it up relatively quickly, but imho it never should have happened in the first place.
3. Once they get past the initial production hiccups of a model, they seem to be very consistent. I had heard stories of Model Ys having build issues, so I accepted mine at the showroom rather than having it delivered. I had an 80-point or so build quality checklist that I told them I wanted to review. They said that they hadn’t seen build quality issues in “a long time” (this was in 2021, over a year after model y release), but they were fine with it. I found no issues. I think that this is fairly standard. Do they have Mercedes level of build quality? No. Do these flaws happen often enough that one should expect it in their new Tesla? Also no. I think that this is really overblown except for newly released models.
4. Regarding any sort of media/publication (perhaps not Consumer Reports, but I’m not sure), they know that they can get clicks/sales by bashing on Tesla, so I think that they often create sub-optimal testing conditions in order to guarantee a negative aspect of the review. As a simple example, I lost a lot of respect for top gear when they went on and on about how teslas aren’t good for race track driving due to the time a full charge lasts on a race track versus the time it takes to charge it to full. It was labored and disingenuous. Stock Teslas aren’t optimized for racing. Additionally, they could have charged up to 50-60% in a few minutes very easily. It really just took away from what could have been a much more interesting review if they had been more flexible (e.g., charging to a lower state of charge more often, like most owners do). All that said, there are some legitimate complaints to make, like some of the ones I mentioned above, but most of the click-bait pieces don’t really seem to hit the mark.
My suggestion to people is to take a test drive (at a minimum) before judging teslas. A lot of the negativity is overblown and/or misplaced, imho. The only way to know for sure is to see it for yourself.
Have had mine since 2019. About to hit 200k miles. Same.
Best car I’ve owned and it isn’t even close. Not sure who all these people are but they clearly haven’t owned a Tesla, or if they have, they haven’t used it anywhere near its limits.
As much as many of us would like to attribute this to Elon's recent arc of desperately seeking approval from the Gamergate crowd hurting the Tesla brand (which it does), this is really just the used car market returning to Earth.
Like many things, car demand fell off a cliff in 2020 and then roared back to life in 2022. There was lots of shuttered capacity and it takes time to ramp that up. Since most cars are produced overseas, this was doubly hurt by sea freight demand also going through the roof. Of course this increased demand for used cars.
6-12 months ago you'd see story after story of 2 year old cars having trade in values of basically the new sticker price. That was never going to last. Either the new prices were going to go up (which some did) or used prices were going to crash. New car production finally caught up and used car prices have started to crash.
There's a lot of speculation that this is going to cause a lot of issues with underwater auto loan debt. We will see.
Tesla has the additional issue that more and more EV options are becoming available.
So I really don't think this has much to do with Musk at all.
Tesla/Musk held a presentation in 2019 (Autonomy Investor Day) where he said you would be crazy not to buy their cars, they will be the first appreciating assets and likely go up over $200K due to their robo taxi network going online across the nation in 2020. He said they would handle all human drivable conditions by then and that they just needed winter 2019 to finalize ice and snow autonomy.
They did turn out to appreciate, but so did the whole used car market, for very different reasons.
Not only this, but gas prices are back down too. If you chart the sale of hybrids and such with gas prices, demand tracks pretty closely. Car market coming down from the stratosphere, impending tax credits, and reduced gas prices are a perfect storm for Tesla prices to fall like a rock.
They have a high unit margin and room to bring prices down, but there is substantial danger as others pick up the competition. Rumors of a Model 3 refresh soon are also floating, which may give the informed buyer some pause.
I can't imagine taking company ownership into consideration when buying a car, especially something as different as an EV. (Volkswagen ownership, anyone?)
If Tesla prices are going down, it's a boon for practical-minded people.
Apples and oranges yet again. Don't compare Tesla to others until others have more than 80% of their used inventory as EVs. Until then, it's apples and oranges.
Teslas generally aren't available in India. Import duties are high for foreign vehicles (like "100% of vehicle cost" high) , and Tesla doesn't have Indian factories.
