No GPU means it gets pretty hot sometimes (don't even try watching videos, I've literally burned myself :'). Otherwise I'd say I could use it as a daily driver: a bit clunky, needs some tinkering, but everything I personally need (VSCodium, Firefox, Docker, wifi, audio in the headphones) already works and works well.

If you already have a MacBook you could use, just give it a try – you can dual-boot, so if it doesn't work you can go back to macOS and try it out again in a couple months.

UPD: and of course, don't forget to sponsor the developers! Every little bit counts.

FTR, GPU support is very close now and if you really want to you can try it yourself. Basic OpenGL and all desktops should work. (https://vt.social/@lina/109346469312488886) but yeah - definitely not working ootb yet.

I think right now the best option is to run macOS plus Nix for a Linux userland.

However, once GPU support and microphone lands in linux-asahi or mainline, it will be probably good enough to switch to Linux. The webcam is currently WIP. That would make a more or less fully functional machine: https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Feature-Support

It's a shame there's no comparable x86_64 machine right now. A ThinkPad or a Surface could fill in this gap, especially with a Ryzen CPU. However, at least in the EU, MacBook Airs are much cheaper. Plus, they are fanless.

ARM-based machines from other manufacturers are also starting to appear, e.g. ThinkPad X13s. However, performance is still a bit behind M1 CPUs. Full Linux support may arrive sooner than for MacBook Airs, though. Booting Debian is not too hard right now: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Other-Linux-Discussions/Does-an...

I missed the x13s, thank you for bringing it up. So... now that I moved my gaming to Linux on handheld, I can move my laptop Linux to Arm. The current possibilities feel both weird and exciting.

I'll give it a try sometime then, thanks for pointing out!

> I've literally burned myself /

That can't be good for the longevity of the device.... or of you for that matter

> for the longevity of the device....

I doubt it's really baking itself; most devices have a lower temperature target set in the software/firmware so that the user doesn't burn their lap, but the default thermal management behavior is done completely on-die.

I always wonder whether the heat calculations are correct. For example, if you compute the equilibrium temperature in a room on a table, then you get a cooler temp than when sitting on a lap that is 98.6 F. If the temperature sensor is near the CPU (i.e. one boundary of the heat equation solution), then it might not see more than a degree or two difference in very different external environments.

It sure can't, which is why I'm not doing it anymore :-) For typical development setup (+ some music not from YouTube) it stays gently warm though (while macOS is stone-cold).

FWIW you can use mpv to play just the audio from any site supported by youtube-dl or yt-dlp (so youtube/twitch/a hundred other platforms):

  $ mpv --no-video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxxxxxxx

or maybe even something like this:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Mpv#youtube-dl_audio_with_s...

I've been using a variation on this theme for years, don't even really know how YouTube looks these days

It's not so bad. You can burn yourself on a metal plate that is at 45 degrees. This temperature is manageable by the electronics inside.

I believe the video decoder (h264 etc) is actually separate from the GPU.

Hmm, I thought the GPU driver was already pretty good?

Good progress is being made with a GPU driver, but currently as released rendering is all being done in software.

Yes, software rendering you install asahi Linux. Although I've seen comments that the overall interactive desktop is faster than the dev's previous laptop with GPU acceleration.

However great progress is being made on GPU driver. Check Alyssa Rosenzweig @alyssa@treehouse.systems and Asahi Linya @lina@vt.social on Mastodon. They have MPV (video playback) and a few 3d accelerated games @ 4k working. There's still a ton of work to be done, but it's making nice progress.

You might want to check the new ThinkPad Z13 and Z16 models with latest Ryzen CPU. You get similar performance and battery life as you'd expect from an M1.

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Z13-laptop-rev...

No need to change the CPU architecture.

I have the system 76 AMD model for work called Pangolin (not available now) it really quite fast and doesn’t get too hot. Battery life is great. I’ve stressed tested doing genetics work which involved maxing out 16 cores across a couple days.

Those new AMDs are great. I went with the system76 because it comes with and they support Linux. It sleeps and wakes ok too

Same question- does it sleep/resume instantly like a Mac?

If you shut the lid and come back in say 8 hours, will the battery be empty or does it really “sleep” like a Mac and retain most battery?

It retains it battery as far as I can tell. I use it daily and haven't had any battery issues day to day. I do tell it to "suspend" before I go home out of habit. Though at work its plugged in.

I used the machine last night on battery a couple hours and this morning I charged for 15 minutes then off to meeting where I used the machine. I'm back and 10 minutes in the battery is now at 85% (In the meeting and using the battery for a little presentation).

The longest time in my bag has been 3-4 days and the battery has not trickled down to zero. its kinda a movable desktop for me mostly.

I have an 7th or 8th gen intel version of the oryx pro. That machine has pretty dismal battery life, but it does game with Nvidia power.

What kind of sleep and wake ? (hibernate / s3, etc ?)

I'm not sure. Its "POPos 22.04 LTS" which is an ubuntu like fork. I use the Suspend on the upper right task bar before closing the lid. I'm pretty sure its not hibernating because it comes right back on lid open. It doesn't make it clear on any system info I can find.

Thanks a lot, not just for the recommendation of the new ThinkPad models, but for the link to that website. I had no idea about it and it seems to be very extensive in their reviews, which I love.

It'll get a lot easier to find a good alternative now! Thanks a lot!

Nice! That website is (at least here in Germany) kind of a standard for laptop reviews. They always go with the same formula, same tests, same report. It's very easy to see how the different models compare.

Sadly they do not test with Linux though...

Looks indeed interesting. But compared to e.g. MacBook Air it can get very loud :)

and also 2560 × 1600 retina display vs 1920 x 1200 pixel 170 PPI - I don't see myself going back...

It is also available with OLED display, 2880 x 1800 pixel 255 PPI.

Compared to a Macbook Air it can also run x86 OSes, Docker and 32-bit software. There's really no comparison :)

> No need to change the CPU architecture.

But you need to relearn the keyboard as it's not a standard ThinkPad keyboard (no PageUp and PageDown above Left and Right)

That detail alone means I won't buy it.

Emulation or recompilation has fewer drawbacks than changing habits.

Being constrained to a single keyboard layout all your life sounds awfully limiting. I literally swap between completely different keyboards often (ortholinear/standard staggered/split layouts/etc). It takes some getting used to in the first couple of weeks, but once you're used to swapping layouts often, your brain just adjusts automatically.

There are some gains from being able to adjust, and some other gains for being able to use any computer with the same shortcuts and the key where I expect them to be.

Personally, I prefer the gains from the latter approach: for example, I use ThinkPad bluetooth keyboards with eink tablets and Termux when I want to switch to something easier to my eyes.

Keeping the same environment (ssh + tmux + bash + vim) with similar keyboards layouts means my workflow and habits have become very independent from the hardware: I only have maintain separate shortcut remapping solutions based on the OS (AutoHotKey for windows, sds100 keymapper for Android)

> my workflow and habits have become very independent from the hardware

Isn't being constrained to a particular keyboard layout being _really_ dependent on hardware, to the contrary?

There are various thinkpads laptops, bluetooth keyboards, USB keyboards all from Lenovo so I can mix and match.

There are also non Lenovo keyboard makers following the same layout like the Tex Shinobi.

To me, it seems better than the alternatives of having different layouts and maintaining different set of shortcuts.

You didn't see a Mac keyboard then.

> standard ThinkPad keyboard

They're talking about how ThinkPad keyboards have looked and worked since forever. Seems it changed recently.

It hasn't "changed", it's more like a variant that's been introduced for both the gamers and end-users laptops line (Z series)

The professional lines (ex: X series) are still using the standard ThinkPad keyboard.

GP is probably referring to the move away from the classic keyboard, which more resembles the IBM desktop layout (separated F keys in clusters of 4, standard home/end/pgup/pgdown arrangement, etc.).

To fans of that layout, the standard (still typical on desktops) was abandoned on ThinkPads ~10 years ago.

Have you tried running linux on those? How is it?

Not yet. I checked that it exists in nixos-hardware already:

https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/tree/master/lenovo/t...

Haven't bought one yet, I'm still quite happy with this X1 from a few years back. You need a quite recent kernel with that laptop, and the wifi is a Qualcomm, not Intel, so check how is the Linux support before buying.

But... I am intrigued, just that I don't really need a fast laptop due to using a beefy desktop for development right now.

Hint: it's not.

I'm not asking much though: I just need a linux laptop which is fast (lots of rust compilations) and can stay for a whole day unplugged. Thunderbolt connectivity to dock it at home (and use bigger screens) would be perfect. I don't need the GPU, I'm mainly using the terminal and the CPU in fast enough for that.

But it's not even there: the CPU is heating even when doing nothing, the laptop doesn't sleep when closed (so the battery is draining too fast) , and thunderbolt is still far away.

But under some conditions it's nice, even nicer than the XPS 15 i9 I had before. I'm giving some undisclosed amount to marcan monthly, and I hope it'll be "usable" (for me) soon.

>> the laptop doesn't sleep when closed

Linux is amazing but doing the right thing when you close the lid is a seemingly intractable problem for it. Maybe we need a hardware spec and a paid distro to finally solve these kinds of problems.

Well not even Windows can manage to sleep a 'modern standby' laptop reliably these days.

I had to set hibernate on lid-close because Windows kept waking it up all the time even while closed.

I have always been curious why I have been seeing people with MacBooks close their lids and walk away at a moment’s notice for nearly 20 years, but I still do not expect to be able to do that from any non Macbook.

Such a killer feature that one would think Microsoft would prioritize.

Microsoft has traditionally believed in abstractions (i.e. interfaces) while Apple believe in concrete implementations. Abstractions are flexible but always leak and therein lies the problems.

I think the interface approach made sense I earlier days of computing. These days it is better to make a zillion, exactly the same computer like Apple does.

So it is technically impossible with Microsoft’s software?

Surely Microsoft has the resources to coordinate hardware and software with Dell/HP/Lenovo on making at least 1 reliable line of laptops where you can close the lid and reliably expect it to instantly sleep and not randomly wake up.

I bet Microsoft would like that - they tried and then after it didn't work out for 2 decades of laptops they started making their own hardware. The 3rd party vendors don't care too much to change the ways they work - they juggle the hardware they put into the laptops all the time, one model-year can have over 100 variants (some Lenovo models go into thousands). Apple has few standard components shared across all products and that's it.

It used to work, S3 suspend is a problem-free experience on both Linux and Windows . But some genius thought that laptop hardware needed power management more like a phone without all the software being built for it, with no fallback.

In my Windows experience since 2000, closing the lid to sleep did not work on Toshiba Satellite, HP NW8000 series business machines, HP Elitebook, Dell Precision, and still does not work on Dell Latitudes. And I believe those were all business grade laptops, except the Toshiba Satellite.

At least on Linux, machines that have proper suspend states integrated into their CPU should get picked up by the kernel and managed properly. My T460s with an i7 6600u sleeps and hibernates just fine, but my 12700k desktop still doesn't know what to do in suspend/hibernation states. Hopefully AMD is doing better with this these days(?)

You don't get instant on with most hardware (some laptops have achieved it through CoreBoot, System76 sells some like that), but with anything that supports S3 and NVMe you can definitely get a reliable system where your laptop can sleep for weeks at a time. Just set up suspend-then-hibernate in systemd on a laptop with a fast SSD.

it seems like more often than not my macbook completely drains its battery or comes out of my backpack hot when I just close the lid.

My windows laptop is basically 24/7 on sleep and it’s still #1 in DNS requests on pihole.

Modern standby is an absolute disaster. It is shameful that the industry adopted and pushes this now.

I've had no issues with his on ubuntu on my previous lenovo x1 carbon or on my recent dell xps 15. (Nor on my desktop)

They know what to do, it just requires work and coordination with the upstream linux kernel (extending the PSCI api); still it's not done.

But don't get mistaken, I like this machine very much. When it works, it works fast and very well.

Dell XPS is the only laptop where I have seen this working reliably. Worst part is that thanks to zram, many distros removed hibernate functionality. So its not possible now to either sleep or hibernate on many laptop/distro combinations. This makes Linux unusable in most cases due to battery drain (and some times even dangerous as laptop gets super hot inside bag etc).

I can't speak for S4/suspend to disk level hibernation, but regular S3/sleep when I close the lid has worked perfectly for me since 2008.

That isn't to say that it's worked out of the box. When I install Linux on a laptop, I'll put some effort into making sure everything works as wanted and this might involve adding kernel flags or mucking with dbus, and it certainly involves some research. If you expect any open source OS to behave like a proprietary OS you bought a license for, you're likely to be disappointed. If you come in with the expectation of learning to solve problems for yourself you'll fare much better.

Unfortunately s3 has been removed from everything after tiger lake in intel chips, replaced with s0ix, which has caused a bunch of problems. For example, https://old.reddit.com/r/System76/comments/k7xrtz/ill_have_w...

Sleep works fine in my alder lake(12th gen) Framework on Fedora, as in it actually sleeps when you close the lid, but it won't last a week like a mac.

By any chance do you know if AMD Ryzen CPUs retain the s3 sleep/resume facilities? As in can I get a Mac like suspend/resume behaviour with Ryzen and Linux?

> As in can I get a Mac like suspend/resume behaviour with Ryzen and Linux?

What do you mean?

Reliably suspending on lid close? That will depend on the system. My 12th gen Framework with Fedora is very reliable in that way.

Battery lasting a week+ when sleeping? Don't count on it but sleep time will depend on the system. Even s3 sleep varied a lot. Some systems wouldn't suspend ssd during s3, for example.

Arguably s2idle/s0ix is more mac-like, in that it is faster to sleep/wakeup than s3, which can take 6-10 seconds.

It's just not as well supported and is much more flexible, in the sense that the os has more control over what is running during sleep. Windows is supposedly takes a strategy of incrementally powering down devices as sleep duration increases to preserve battery.

> s3, which can take 6-10 seconds.

What? S3 should be well under 5 seconds. 10 seconds is like a whole clean boot, or resuming from hibernation on NVMe.

> My 12th gen Framework with Fedora is very reliable in that way.

How long does it take for your Intel Framework machine to sleep properly upon shutting the lid, and how long until it is ready to use after you open the lid?

"Dell XPS" is too generic a term to be useful.

I've got an old XPS 13 which works perfectly; I also got a newer XPS 15 (top of the line, 4500€) which never managed to sleep correctly (thanks to Intel s0ix hybrid-suspend) and often overheated in the bag. I got rid of the latter after 1 year, it was a mess to use.

The one I have is 2021 XPS 13. May be the 15 model is wired different somehow.

My newer XPS laptop doesn't even have an S3 sleep state. At least it can hibernate under OpenBSD, I guess.

My xps never hibernated properly and the battery started to swell, which messed up my touchpad

In my opinion, not ready enough, but usable. Speakers are still not safe to use, no use of security components, no Touch-ID, no GPU support, no mics and many more[1].

Though its still very impressive what they got so far, and hope in the near future it will become a full functioning OS.

[1] https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Feature-Support

I don't think speakers are totally safe to use on OSX either. I've blown out speakers on two machines with VCV Rack. :[

I wasn't able to find it just now, but I remember a warning several years ago in a SuperCollider tutorial to the effect of "Mac OS X does not hard-limit maximum volume, so BE VERY CAREFUL! You can damage your ears and hardware!"

I'm sorry you lost internal speakers to that.

there's a gpu support. We all have watched how it was built on youtube by a Japanese anime character.

It depends on your definition. It's not yet released so I would say this would count as it's not there yet.

I can't install asahi today and have the GPU work.

Its still in development. Theres a working patch but not yet merged to Asahi.

Yeah, but it's still in the works, right? Gambatte, Lina-san!!

It really depends what you need. The basics are working: USB2, wifi, bt, kb, track pad, 3.5mm jack. So it's definitely usable.

Om the other hand there are tons of features that are not ready. GPU, external display (allthough these are relatively close to), speakers, video encoder/decoder, USB3, thunderbolt, deep sleep states and more.

Whether it's ready is a very subjective question on what features you consider essential to have. Personally I will wait until GPU, USB3, thunderbolt and external displays work since I use those constantly.

Many features are not supported yet. For example adjusting screen brightness, internal speakers and power management.

Have a look at https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Feature-Support

EDIT: Power Management works. What I meant is that sleep does not work

Related question: does anybody exclusively use any Linux distro on MacBooks in a VM? What is the tradeoff and how is your experience?

I want the MacBooks for the battery backup, but I cannot live without NixOS, and seems like Asahi is still a few months away.

I run NixOS in Parallels, and it's super nice. I copied a config from https://github.com/wegank/nixos-config/tree/main/hardware/pa... for an updated parallels-tools package, for things like copy/paste and mounting shared folders from the host OS.

I'm really happy with it overall. All the hardware works perfectly, and I don't notice the bit of RAM & CPU reserved for the host. The only downside is that some packages aren't available for aarch64-linux, e.g. Slack, Spotify, etc. I just run those on the host OS instead, which is a little annoying due to context switching but not a huge deal.

Hmm, my edit below erased my original comment, as I wasn't paying attention... Anyway, the gist is that NixOS runs great in Parallels, using the patched parallels-tools module from this nixos config: https://github.com/wegank/nixos-config/tree/main/hardware/pa...

Some packages on nixpkgs aren't available for aarch64-linux, but mostly unfree stuff like Spotify that's available on macOS. Overall I really like it, and I hardly ever interact with the host OS anymore for dev work. That said, I still use macOS for casual browsing, since scrolling and trackpad gestures are smoother than in linux. Not a big deal, since copy/paste works fine.

edit to add a link to my config, which has a couple tweaks for screen resolution, etc: https://github.com/yusefnapora/nixos-system-flake/blob/main/...

Mine is using an older and more complicated version of the parallels-tools patch, so go with the one linked above if you end up using Parallels.

You could also try UTM, which now has support for Rosetta for x86 binaries. There's a good writeup for NixOS + Rosetta here that I can confirm works: https://xyno.space/post/nixos-utm-rosetta - I had some random instability with UTM though, so switched back to Parallels.

This is a nice idea actually for finessing the GPU driver issue - use the virtual GPU drivers. (As a bonus you still have access to macOS desktop apps if you need or want them.)

Personally I use tend to use Linux VMs as if they were remote servers, so I don't have a huge need for Linux GPU drivers.

One thing that helped with VMware Fusion is using host-local interfaces with static IP addresses. Otherwise I would tend to get disconnected from VMs when macOS disconnected from wi-fi, which was very annoying. This is less of an issue if you're using the VM window directly.

You could install NixOS on your Mac. I've installed Debian, some use Fedora; you just use the Asahi installer to repartition and install the kernel, and after that you can isntall your distro of choice (not super easy though).

I don't want to use Asahi until the experience is seamless - so VM seems to be the only option.

I used to do this and there are a few annoyances, and the set of annoyances is different for every VM software you choose. My preference was VMWare Fusion. The worst annoyance there was that it emulated touchpad scrolling as a mouse wheel, so you didn’t get pixel-precise scrolling but instead jumped several lines after you had moved your fingers some significant amount.

Overall it all worked fine, and far more reliably than Linux on a modern laptop running natively (if you can get past the minor annoyances).

One of the most popular NixOS configs on GitHub does this https://github.com/mitchellh/nixos-config

The README describes the experience, though the author takes the approach of using the VM mainly for terminal-based stuff.

I only use Lima on the Mac I use at work. But by any limitation by my employer, it's just the easiest thing I've found for running a few containers for my semi-daily workflow.

> but I cannot live without NixOS,

Just to double check: nix on Darwin isn't good enough?

Nope. I tried it and hated the MacOS GUI. I like my window-manager config, and various other deep customizations. Also, MacOS updates kept breaking things.

macOS updates breaking things is one of the biggest frustrations I remember from regularly using macOS with Nix (and Homebrew, and a handful of third-party GUI apps, for that matter). The macOS GUI environment isn't for me, either.

Nix-Darwin (the module system that gives you some NixOS-like features with Nix on macOS) is nice, but macOS ultimately can't match the predictability and control one gets used to on NixOS. A system that updates in a non-uniform way, has limited configurability, and where the configuration of the system isn't given anywhere in a trackable, comprehensible form feels painfully chaotic in comparison.

(I can understand why Nix on Darwin (with or without Nix-Darwin) is a great fit for many, though. Having a 'normal', mainstream desktop underneath your still relatively predictable, explicit, reproducible dev tooling is awesome in a lot of ways.)

I'm waiting for it to stabilise a bit more, but I'm quite pleased with UTM + a Linux VM. Hopefully we'll get more ARM support in Linux distros, I really hate snaps but otherwise Ubuntu works the best so far in my experience.

Context: first laptop in circa 20 years that doesn't run Linux (m1 air).

I don't like OSX and after a year I'm still not really used to it. But... It's still a much better choice to deal with it than Asahi right now (emphasis on right now, I expect it will get there and I will gladly use it at that point). No GPU, no sleep, no audio, no real power management. If you need arm Linux for something concrete, VM is the way to go right now unfortunately.

Yeah, if the option is between MacBook + macOS VS any other solid laptop with Linux, I'm gonna have to do with the second option. Any time I tried to use macOS (which, for many years before I did use daily), I end up getting frustrated...

Many thanks for sharing your experience!

How is the battery life on Asahi (eg 16in MBP)? I'm debating this versus the HP Elitebook 865[0], which has 64GB ram, top spec Ryzen, and a 72whr battery. They claim 22h battery life, and 13h of youtube playback.

[0]: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/mdp/hp-elitebook-865

I have heard a glowing review of this hp elitebook 865 with Ryzen from someone I know. Although they only use Windows. I’m quite interested in knowing if it can sleep/wake-up like a Mac on Linux. This is my practical choice for a personal Linux machine.

Good to know! I'm also considering the Schenker[0] with 99wh battery, or the Starbook[1] as they seem to be linux friendly

[0]: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Schenker-Vision-14-Laptop-in-r...

[1]: https://us.starlabs.systems/pages/starbook

Looks like the Schenker laptop you’re considering has an Intel 12* series cpu. As far as I know it has botched S3 sleep states which means that the laptop won’t properly go to sleep.. instead draining the battery while the lid is shut in a backpack. Hence my interest in the AMD cpu.

If you are in EU, you might be interested in this

https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/

I am not affiliated, but recently purchased one and very happy with it.

Thank you for the recommendation. How are they keyboards and the general build quality? Like the hinges and other mechanical parts?

I got one of the midi sized systems, not a laptop. No complaints, the cable management is good. The parts are grand, the delivery was quick. I found it through a youtube channel called "the linux experience" - I think he is German. He does a review on their laptops, maybe that will be more usefull for you.

Can anyone comment on battery life in the current state of things?

I'm interested in this as well. I don't have a personal M* MacBook to test it myself(Writing this on a M1 Pro MacBook Pro provided by work, but I'm obviously not trying to boot Asahi Linux on a work machine). I'm thinking about getting a laptop for personal use, and I'd love for a M1 machine if it runs Linux decently. 1. It needs to be able to sleep/resume like a Mac (shut the lid, and it goes to sleep without sucking the battery, and open the lid, it should wake up within a second or two allowing me to continue what I was doing before sleep), and 2. Needs to last at least 8 hours on battery. The Mac lasts more than 14 hours for my use (very light). Wifi needs to work reliably.

I don't care if the GPU lays there unused, I don't care if bluetooth doesn't work.

I hope Asahi Linux gets there someday soon.

See my other comment; wifi works well, power management doesn't work at all.

Is this really a power management issue and not the issue that the CPU is constantly hard at work rendering the UI?

Nope, it's power management. It's not implemented yet, so the laptop doesn't sleep and doesn't even throttle. "In the future" it should work though.

Power management should work for the most part. Sleeping and hibernation doesn't work yet but it should definitely scale to your load. All the usual things like setting the performance governor should work. See the driver discussion here: https://lore.kernel.org/linux-pm/20220504075153.185208-1-mar...

If you have issues with this please report it to marcan (or somewhere on IRC in the project or whatever).

It is not ready for daily driving (yet).

To save your time. That is the answer.