It struck me this summer (can’t get up, weak muscle, no motivation, “mind tremor”). My doctor suggested the following steps: morning exercise, make a plan for a day/week and mostly stick to it, do everything you have to do, get regular and good sleep. No-medicine mode. I didn’t feel instantly fine ofc, and getting out of it is not the point I’m writing this comment. That state was so motivating that now I somehow miss it. For a week or two I turned into a man who can do everything because of the inner force of rigid determination which you build up at the morning and then sculpt your day around it, never missing a task, never delaying a call, never questioning a decision, never fearing an interaction. It just had to be done. It was like living under 3x gravity which would crush you once you lay down without a purpose. The most surprising part was that I can do that, can just go and do whatever was planned under the depression, and not get anxious, lazy, tired or questioning why. Now it’s all gone, and I’m back to “why would I do that, it’s fine enough already” mode. Human minds are bullshit.
“Human minds are bullshit” - true that!
The mind will conjure up all the philosophy and logic in the world once it wants something. For many of us, the thing can be laziness - which can hold us back in the long term.
I'm not convinced that laziness is really a thing. It seems to me that what we call laziness is more often depression, adhd, fear of failure, or something else.
I'll preface this by saying that I don't want to invalidate or diminish your experience, this is genuine curiosity. If you can't get up, have weak muscles and no motivation, how do you do morning exercise and stick to a plan? I feel like pressure that something has to be done could be called a form of motivation, but again I'm not sure.
As I said, for me depression also manifested as a set of very negative sensations (you’re almost dead, feel like sort of hangover). After doc said that I can fight it, I became very angry at it and wanted to punch it in its face even with my numb hands, and that was a big part of that morning momentum buildup. It wasn’t a positive motivation, like “If I do some aerobics I will feel better”, it was more along the lines of “I hate your rule and you will die with me”. Thinking of it more, you’re right, it is motivation, but with a non-trivial connection to the result.
He probably knew me well enough to suggest the right plan, or it was just a good guess. Because anger and revolt are my base personal traits, and depression couldn’t take it from me that easy. E.g. being sometimes anxious, I often make self-exposition just to spite these feelings, instead of fleeing from their source. (Please don’t think I’m non-civilized though, it is completely internal thing.)
As of formal diagnosis, yes that was completely it, in an acute form (i.e. not chronic).
Edit: also I listened to Jocko Willink speeches in that state and understood them sooo well. He was so obvious. Now when my usual reasoning returned, they sound a little funny. It’s like two completely parallel worlds.
If the mind over body thing doesn’t work, try very very gradually increasing intensity without regards to time. When I’m feeling really awful, I’ll slow jog/walk less than a mile on the treadmill first thing in the morning, then come back later to do a proper run. It’s like taking all day to warm up, and it usually works if I can muster the will.
I'm a little confused about the author's form of depression. He seemed to be able to still experience positive emotions and feelings. I don't mean to dismiss or invalidate his experience but I think depressive periods brought on by a real factor in life, say a personal hardship or stressor (in his case it seemed like work) are very, very different than chronic treatment resistant depression with anhedonia.
One of the hardest symptoms of depression to treat is anhedonia, meaning blunted or no responses to positive emotions. Having severe anhedonia is both difficult to treat pharmacologically and therapeutically.
I'm in the same boat as this author with habits/productivity, but with severe anhedonia, that only gets you so far. You can't use cheat codes, you only really know what to avoid. Since you don't really respond to rewards or dopamine hits everything is kind of messed up. You can maintain a momentum and it's better than sinking into oblivion but it always just kind of feels like treading water because the alternative is worse. I have to force myself to do everything, even things I "like" doing and it's very exhausting.
So anyway glad that this author found a way out of his situation but just as an alternative viewpoint this form of depression is more common and has a better prognosis. Some people have other forms of depression for which this approach is lacking something because if you don't naturally feel positive emotions regardless of what's going on (and regardless of treatment modality, hence treatment resistant) stuff gets pretty messed up. You can change your actions and habits but not how you feel and if you're always trying to compensate by not having an innate positive feeling or drive about something you can get a momentum but then you're stuck there. It's better than the alternative and you make peace with it but it will always be kind of a broken system.
I recall Robert Sapolsky saying that anhedonia is a "retreat into the rational mind".
That doesn't sound so bad until you've experienced it. It's a deficit of life at the most fundamental perceptual level.
I prefer sorrowful depressive states, because at least you're alive even if the pain is crippling. Anhedonia? The thing crippling you is mercurial, illusory. It's an absence, not a presence.
I don't prefer depressive states but I feel like a lot of anhedonic states border on disassociation for me and I'm praised for it. I'm in a state right now like the article author in that I'm doing all these good habits. I find it annoying when people comment on it and it often comes off as patronizing. I'm not doing it for attention or praise (and that doesn't really affect me), again, I'm doing it because I have to keep treading water. It leads to this terrible dynamic where I don't like reaching out to someone when I'm doing poorly but I also don't like reaching out to someone when I'm doing "well" - which means that I'm doing all the actions that one is to be praised for in "treating" depression but not feeling any relief whatsoever. It's painful to have people praise me or say I'm "strong" for what is a purely a survival mechanism, it's this or ending up physically abused in the psych ward.
I've dealt with anhedonia most of my life. I would not say that I prefer sorrowful states; pain is crippling across the board, and you cannot live in such a state chronically in the same way as you can in an anhedonic one.
But I fully agree with you about it being a deficit, an absence. Large portions of the human experience are simply cut off from you, and it isn't something I would wish on anyone.
I've made peace with it but human language is very odd. I still use terms such as "like/love" "miss you" "looking forward to" but I'm cut off from the emotions behind it. Most people I know well know this and I've explained it to them but it does trip me up at times because it feels dishonest.
I think that happens to everyone. I think most times people say they're "looking forward to seeing you" do it out of politeness, not an overwhelming feeling of anticipation.
I had a somatic variant.. for some reason I couldn't operate my left fingers[0]. I'd type and all of a sudden signals would jam and nothing would move. I had moments in life where my hand got bruised, or frozen and I couldn't 'use' it but I could still feel it. Something in my brain was still there. But the last time it felt like my brain could not find the fingers, it left a void which felt like a silent death. I wonder if people suffering hemi/quadriplegia or any form of handicap have that sensation.. I hope not it's difficult to bear.
[0] (maybe grief causing blood flow problems and brain ischemia.. I don't know)
Thanks for asking. Things were too transient for me to seek neurologists. It could be very disturbed for two weeks and slightly come back a few days... Most GP thought I was exaggerating so I gave up.
Right now, it's somehow back. I don't operate keyboard at the same speed as I used to but I have normal finger sensations (I can sequence fine and subtle finger patterns without brain freeze, which is what made me feel so bad before). I assume it's mostly due to bike commute strengthening my cardiovascular system and brain blood flow (or maybe it's something different.. I have no scientific data)
I wish I had the input of a neurologist though.. I do have to see one next month but for something totally unrelated (dysmorphic hallucinations) I may ask her/him just in case if there's enough time.
The author is actually female and, surprisingly, ends the article indicating that she is not out of the situation. The depression is still lurking but she has a better understanding of what’s going on.
Reading the post, I felt somewhat stupid for not having been able to use my intellectual capacity to get me out of my slump myself. But then I realized that what I was experiencing was probably a lot different than what they experienced.
> seemed to be able to still experience positive emotions and feelings.
Not saying it's the case here, but there's more flavors of depression than just major depressive disorder. There's a secondary form called atypical depression that has a few different features - you can still experience positive emotions and feelings, but those feelings are pretty fleeting.
Richard Davidson's work helped me see depression as an inability to mentally generate, maintain or perceive positive emotion, from bad to worst. There was a period in time I could perceive them, but not maintain let alone generate them.
And what got me back on track was
7000 steps and strictly down regulating social media feeds and learning a few self regulating tricks and awareness of the brain going funky to then apply the self regulating tricks (therapy).
The 7000 steps alone got me back to a better sleep cycle, the complete pack to a good sleep cycle.
Would you say that you had bad habits with the social media that you had to break kind of like a mild "addiction"? A lot of people with anhedonia have had wires crossed due to things like this.
In my case it wasn't PAWS or anything like that for me but I had a lot of psych meds forced on me as a teenager and young adult which could have had an effect.
In fact it's been kind of hard to get psych treatment because the assumption often is that there is very strong comorbidity between addictive behaviors and long term mental illness but for me I've never had issues with habits/behavior like that and having to reprogram my brain after.
Diet wise, I've been vegan for most my life and gluten free for a year. I rarely have added sugars and I seem to respond better to less carbs but oils can also be tough on me other than MCT so I don't say keto. My diet still could be better but no added cholesterol, dairy and gluten and minimal sugar so I think I'm doing good. i try to eat blueberries, matcha, and walnuts when I can for the antioxidant benefits.
I supplement food based C, D+k, iron as well as a methylated B complex with extra methylated riboflavin + benfotiamine + 15mg l-methylfolate + b12 (in sublingual form). Magnesium malate, Zinc carnosine and vegan DHA + EPA and some form of glutathione I have on hand. Try to do PQQ, selenium, CoQ10 daily as well.
Not daily but fairly regularly with breaks or every other day: TUDCA, reshi, lion's mane, AHCC, cordyceps.
On and off, ALCAR, ALA.
I've had good success with antioxidants like dragon's blood and shilajit (when I say success in terms of pain/energy, not mood) but these days I keep it simple just with megadosing vitamin C every so often
have experimented with ashwaghanda/bacopa, not for me, still sometimes take ashwaghanda but rarely. Currently giving Polygala tenuifolia another whirl, despite all the hubub doesn't seem to help much so my next new experiment may be trying low dose lithium orotate again.
I am a 35 yr old male, and few months back found that my Testosterone levels were in the 150-300 range among different labtests (acceptable range being 300-1100). In males Estrogen is created from free testosterone. Because of my low testosterone, my estrogen levels were in immeasurable range (it just said less than 10). I faced different side-effects of almost non-existing Estrogen like dry skin, facial twitchiness, dry irritating eyes, low libido.
Also had anxiety, depression, and low drive/motivation because of the low testosterone.
I have been trying different methods to raise my testosterone levels, clomid/TRT/Hcg. all the methods make me feel better than my previous self. I am trying to figure out which method will help me maintain optimum hormone levels in the longterm with less side effects, I think most likely it will be a combination of cycling through all of these three methods. Planning to use Enclomiphene instead of Clomid, the next time I try a SERM.
Sounds like you have some health issues beyond the mood stuff. So that would complicate things.
You take glutathione? Not a glutathione precursor?
Is there any of this done specifically because you thought it was supposed to help with anhedonia? Because my impression is this sounds like you believe these are healthy, basically.
Thanks everyone for reading and sharing thoughts. I expected responses would fall along these lines and I had my qualms about posting at all (which I mention in the piece). Ultimately, after lots and lots of feedback and contemplation, I decided that, on the balance, it would be probably be more helpful than hurtful to post. And I'm glad I did.
To address the questions about whether it is fair, or accurate (whatever that means), to characterize my state as depression, I can say that 1/I was formally diagnosed by a clinician 2/ I was severely suicidal (though it would have require a close read to have picked that up) and 3/this clinician and I were seriously exploring hospitalization. My depression was and is not chronic.
I am well-aware depression looks different for everyone and was clear about representing anyone else's experience in the post. I don't mean to be snarky, but I would hope that after all this time on the internet, encountering all kinds of people in all kinds of places, we might be able to grasp the diversity, variation, and nuance in the human experience. I think it's worth reflecting on whether or not you believe someone else's experience has to match your own in order to have validity.
Most importantly, though, my heart goes out to any and all people who are hurting, in any way shape or form.
Thanks for posting and please just ignore the few nasty comments from people who think you haven’t suffered as badly as them and therefore don’t know what you are talking about. It reflects really badly on them and not you. Best of luck with everything and again thanks for sharing your experience.
I don't think the author understands what depression is, or at least what it is like for the majority of sufferers. I feel like the article trivialises depression as something to be worked through and overcome. If you have chronic depression, this article is probably going to irritate you. It's kind of like when people say you have you 'fight' cancer. You can't fight cancer, and those that die of cancer didn't die because they were too weak to put up a good fight.
I like that at least the title is "How I Got My Brain Back" and not "How I Overcame Depression", and that the author talks about "My depression" instead of just "depression". This gives a hint that what worked for them worked for them, and that's it.
I understand where you are coming from, but I think there's room to be a little more charitable to the author. While her experience with depression may not be applicable to everyone, that does not invalidate what she had to say. Her approach was helpful to her and it might be helpful to others.
If you are suffering from depression, chronic or otherwise, first, I am sorry to hear that. It is a difficult place to be. I wish I knew of a technique that worked for everyone but unfortunately I do not.
I recently recovered from a long bout with depression myself. I'm not entirely certain what caused the difference after so many years. One potential thing is that I went through an experience that reset my gut bacteria. It sounds a little strange that that might be the thing, but it seems to be the most logical explanation.
I don't know if it will work for others, but I'm putting it out there in case it does.
It’s interesting how many people are irritated by the tone of the article and how it appears to trivialize depression. The argument isn’t the blogger should not have written any thing. Just not trivialize it and make themselves seem so great at solving stuff.
So the people responding the advice can still be helpful aren’t actually responding to the many people including me with issues with the post.
She clearly understands and is an expert on how depression felt for her and how she managed to improve her situation. And that is all she writes about in the article. So your comment is off target.
I'm really glad to see that the OP found help, but my experience with depression is that when depression is at its peak, that's when all the work that one puts into organization, productivity and tracking systems goes out the window.
Logging? Journalling? I'm having trouble enough getting out of bed and putting one foot in front of the other. I don't have energy for any of that.
To be clear, I'm not actually in a depressed phase now, but when I was in the past, that was my experience. Anything but the simplest of to-do lists was too much overhead.
Indeed. I have suffered depression and just the idea of writing a list was too much.
At times I did literally nothing for days at a time until I was forced to. I didn't eat anything that wasn't already in the house and that I could just open and consume.
I remember thinking to myself "maybe playing on the PS3 will cheer me up" but the PS3 wasn't setup and so for three days I didn't get it from upstairs and set it up on my TV. Instead I just lay on the sofa and watched shit on tv thinking about setting it up but never actually doing it because just getting off the sofa and walking upstairs to get the PS3 was too fucking much for me to deal with. I would have to actually move and go upstairs, I would have to find the console, then find the controller, then the HDMI cable and power cable and the USB cable to charge the controller as the battery would be flat. Then find my games. And oh god pick a game from which meant making a choice from several options. If I managed to do all of that I would still have to move the TV so I could hook it up, was there a plug socket for the PS3 free? If not I would have to find somewhere else to plug it in or find an extension cord. It was all emotionally too much.
That was depression for me. Being overwhelmed at just the idea of hooking up a PS3 to the TV. Trying to do any kind of cognitive introspection and writing a list wouldn't have even registered.
People give all kinds of advice trying to help but you can tell those that have actually been diagnosed with depression and those that self-diagnose from the advice they offer.
Go for a walk. Do some exercise. Make an action plan. Try meditation. Cook a meal you love. Do something you have always enjoyed like watch you favourite movie or play your favourite game.
Sorry I know people are trying to help but when you are in that deep depression there is no "favourite" movie or book or video game anymore. There is the depression and nothing else. It is a void. An anaesthesia of your emotions and executive function while you remain awake but reaction-less.
Edit: I also wanted to say that while I disagree with a lot of what Brie wrote in her article I don't want to come across as invalidating how she was feeling.
Obviously we all experience things differently, however as far as I can tell she was not officially diagnosed and so while it is very possible she would have been diagnosed with depression it is also very possible she was "in a funk" due to how Covid changed the world the past ~20 months.
I know many people that suffered from very 'depression-like' problems after their lifestyle was changed without their desire or permission with lockdowns, working from home, not seeing friends or family as usual, etc. While they were very down they were not depressed and everyone I know that experienced this managed to find ways, like Brie, to handle the unexpected and unwelcome changes to their lives during the pandemic.
Reading the article comes across more of Brie experiencing this "Covid funk" (for want of a better name) than full on depression. Of course I could be wrong but without a proper diagnosis at the time Brie could also be wrong and I find it a bit uncomfortable when people describe themselves as depressed then proceed to say how going on long runs and being highly organised with post-it note systems helped them break their depression and "get their mind back".
I hear you. It’s only worse now. Even with everything is connected, if you haven’t played recently, there’s an hour of console/game updates to download before you can play. Or worse, you spend an hour f’ing with accounts trying to get logged in, accept new terms, confirm to 2FA updates, link game dev account to console platform account, etc.
The few times I actually found motivation and time to play, it just added layer of frustration on top of whatever I was feeling. Fwiw, the Nintendo Switch mitigated a some of these issues (not all) and I eventually found the Zelda game to be helpful.
I'm in my early 20s and i've been living with depression all my life. Only recently got unofficial diagnosis from my former therapist. When i read the title the first thought that poped in my head was "How can you get back something that you never had?". I don't know if it was my thought or my depression influenced that thought, but at the end of the day it's something i believe it's true.
Some gatekeeping is happening in the comments. This is just one person’s experience. Their level and strength of depression. Their personality. Their situation. If anything they said is relevant or helpful, great. If not, please share your own story and help others!
Yes people with serious depression etc are offended. I don’t see how that is gatekeeping. We just believe the writing should reflect how this person was not really suffering that much. There are a number of examples given throughout the comments showcasing that.
It would be nice if the blog post was more aware of their situation vs the situation for actually [clinically] depressed people. The word depressed does not have a firm meaning in society. This benefits the blogger in that their feats sound impressive and make depression not seem to be such a big deal.
With all due respect, invalidating someone else's lived experience and telling someone that did something that worked for them that they shouldn't share it because it doesn't fit your definition of "suffering that much" is, quite literally, gatekeeping.
My message did not focus on if at all say they shouldn’t share what they wrote. Everything else you wrote is based around that incorrect assumption.
I said it should be clearer that the person is in a rut.
To give an extreme example, if the person said they had [high level] autism for a few months and did this stuff to get better. I’d think it is fair for people to get offended at that.
There are people who have suffered way more than you. Does that invalidate any opinion you have on your personal struggle? Of course not. Should you stop writing about it? Of course not. So why are you down on the author? She very carefully points out that she is talking about her personal experience and in no way generalise that experience to include or somehow fix problems for everybody else. If her experience gives you some ideas for how to improve your own situation then great! If not then so what? It might help others so it is useful.
I’m down on the terminology and framing. Most of what you wrote is not about that.
She does not carefully say she possibly was not that depressed. At no point did she think how would [clinically] depressed people feel with this written and equivocating her experience with theirs.
I wrote in a sibling reply, there would likely be universal negative response if she said she had [high level] autism [for a few months] and did stuff to fix it. Which would be the correct response.
And you don`t get to decide how others should react to someone else articles content. Whether I believe the article is full of shit or not is my choice and I can express it freely why not?
In addition to applying for professional help, I found useful to read the main CBT book that psychologists use (https://www.amazon.com/Cognitive-Behavior-Therapy-Third-Basi...). I found it easy to read and apply. I started walking every morning, recording my thoughts when my mood changes, found out my main aspiration and in general achieved so much clarity in my head
I believe most mental health issues are symptoms of a general health issues. Improving sleep is first (check out mouth tape). Then comes getting out of the house. Then exercise like yoga (improve your breathing). Then come other life changes. Of course, all with surrounding support.
If you find yourself with the symptoms outlined in the article's "Going Upside Down", one need not invent a treatment plan from scratch. There are people who literally specialize in helping people with precisely these symptoms: therapists.
Just as a physical-therapist can sometimes suggest an exercise that you'd never have thought of (That tingling in my fingers is related to a muscle in my back? What?), a good therapist will be able to help you navigate this rough spot in your life.
As an action item, a therapist at lyrahealth.com has been a key part of helping me manage stress/life-changes/pandemic in recent months. Many employers offer mental-health consultation services through their health plans -- the employer only sees aggregate numbers, not your personal information.
It is daunting to realize, "holy poops, I need a helping hand here". It is perhaps doubly-daunting to find a way over the hump to make the initial call/contact to a pro, but it is possible, and you can do it. There is a pretty good chance that someone at the other end can begin helping you work through life's challenges; they've already helped others in a similar situation.
Many people are just kinda forced to conform to society, and while we all have to deal with it, depression can at times manifest from making personal and moral compromises to survive when you feel that you have no other choice. It is like pretending to be someone you're not and convincing yourself that you're happy, when deep down you're miserable.
Its thought the Psilocybin caps the serotonin receptors constantly stimulating them in much the same way SSRI's work but this approach may still have its pitfalls.
If you want a good legal laugh, swap sugar for Glycine, its found in sugar cane anyway, about 22% of it is glycine, so spoon it into your hot beverages, sprinkle it on your food and sit back and enjoy like your haven't laughed since you were kid! You will also smell nicer. Word of warning, you might get into trouble laughing at things that require a sombre or serious attitude so dont blame me if you get sacked from your job!
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4955867/
Depression can be caused by too much stress, too much cortisol is not good for us.
There are obviously other actions taking place in the body with Glycine, just like all chemicals perform multiple actions in the body, so nothing is a panacea.
Definitely don't recommend without knowing yourself, and even then it can be dangerous. I once watched someone try mushrooms for their first time try to harm themselves and thankfully I was there to help them through it, but they had some underlying issues that were unknown and were only exacerbated by the pyschedelics.
Set, setting, cast, and dose are hugely important.
It is proven in clinical settings. On one's own, doing a smaller dose for the first time with friends in nice weather with minimal stressors can be a huge learning experience and an enjoyable journey.
The advent and closing of her story revolved around relationships. I'm curious as to why she didn't expand more on how this influenced her mental state
It's great the author learnt a lot about themselves and is feeling better. I was quite surprised to see that they wanted to try "cupping" though, which is well documented as pseudo-science snake oil and sometimes even extremely harmful.
The comments on this are very binary. Depressed or not. And everyone has their threshold (temp sadness, debilitating, chronic)
I remember when we used to think of depression as a spectrum instead of discrediting people that struggle, even if their struggle isn’t the same as yours.
Is this another example of polarization of society maybe?
If I had to summarize this article in one word, it'd be "dishonest". This is some naive teenage girl level shit and I am not buying it coming from an adult.
Not to mention having html { opacity: 0; } on content that's already there.
I started 3 months ago a spravato therapy for medication resistant depression, and while I'm not back at my former self, for the moment I feel much better.
The author's post-it method is evocative of what I do.
I have a bunch of cards. More than 20, less than 30 of them.
All of my activities have been categorized into these cards. Such that I pick a card and go.
This makes it easy to log and do stats wrt/ mood (inside view), and activity (outside view). Also it helps with applying "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are".
Cards have limits on them. Time limits and space limits.
Spacey limits are "anywhere", "town", "out" and "in".
Timey limits are availability hours "from-to" and duration limits "from-upto".
There are four cards that are "anywhere" and "anytime". They are called "Burn" for time-limited aimlessness, "Drain" for interruptions and forced unpleasantness, and "Stop, wait" for forced idle time. Forced is unexpected and not initiated by myself in this case. There's also "Crash" for unscheduled or improperly initiated sleep. These are red cards.
There are two more cards that are similar, "Calls" and "Commute" that have two time-windows in a day and are "anywhere". These too are red cards.
There are green cards like "Cook and/or Eat" or "Garden", "Improve Habitat", "Washup or Cleanup", "Shower or Groom" and others that are "inside". Also "Code/Write" and "make Music/Play" that are orange "inside" cards.
There are blue cards like "Stock up" or "Job", "Socialize" that are "outside" and have hours attached.
And cards that are limited in time(window) but not space like "Sharpen Axe", "Walk or Sit", "Take stock and Adjust". Those are orange cards.
The "Exercise" and "Job" cards unlock a "Coffee and Smokes" card and a "Snack" card for one-time use.
Even just making these cards and following, using them for 10 days or so made my mind markedly different. Removed a whole level of underlying anxiety that I did not identify as a removable category. Made me appreciate myself in a different way.
And it is a thing you do if "You treat yourself as someone you're responsible for, responsible for helping".
It came from the idea that RPGs are systems emulating reality. So it should work in reverse, treating yourself as a PC character and categorizing the larger world around you as a game-board with cards.
Make your own cards. Very much worth the experience (and points).
> Chatting on dating apps was surprisingly fulfilling: People were really kind and it was a fun way to talk to strangers, especially when that wasn’t possible IRL.
Pretty sure using dating apps would have the opposite effect for most depressed men: would make them more depressed.
Well, the generation who grew up with chats knows exactly why that is. Pick a female handle, and feel showered by the beauty of inspiring conversations with men. :))
Well... You also have to realize that most of those messages are going to be complete garbage that they have to wade through. I'm not convinced they have it any easier.
For someone only interested in social chatting, if it's true that regular dating apps are unpleasant for men, there's always the option of gay dating apps. You do have to be tolerant of some amount of un-requested nudity, but otherwise it is a good option for just finding chat partners.
If you're just looking for chatting partners, language exchange apps are going to be much better due to the asymmetric desire to learn English and the fact that just by talking, you're providing value to the other person.
It's also poor advice because there's already too many people on dating apps looking for pen pals instead of dates. There's other apps to just chat with people without leading them on.
The author was doing 45 minute HIIT routines while being depressed. Go figure.
I find this kind of articles infuriating. All this narcissistic talk about how they handled it and whatever, signaling how they are above all that (the disclaimer at the bottom does not qualify, we are not that retarded).
After 30 years of suffering treatment resistant bipolar depression I just find all this diminishing of clinical depression really disgusting and paternalizing (did some editing here, I don't have anything personal against the author)
Yes, we depressed people are so retard. We don`t understand how exercise or clean eating benefit us, we cannot organize our lives, we like to suffer...and lose jobs...yeah, of course.
Please don't fulminate or call names like this on HN, no matter how wrong or bad some article is or you feel it is. It doesn't help—it only makes things worse—and it's deeply against both the site rules and the intended spirit of the site.
If you wouldn't mind reviewing the guidelines and taking them more to heart, we'd be grateful. Note this one as well: "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
I've had chronic depression my whole adult life, sometimes extremely crippling, and I do understand your view point to a degree, but at the same time I didn't really come away from this article feeling "invalidated" in any way.
The author's description of her symptoms match pretty strongly to my experience of depression (I would say they match my experience when I'm at my "neutral baseline" - definitely not in my worse moments). From what she's describing it doesn't sound like chronic depression but more circumstantial. But it's definitely depression. She doesn't need to have a badge of "I've had this for 20 years" to have a perfectly valid, and tough experience of depression.
She clearly went into it with already established patterns like exercise and a high degree of self awareness, which has served her well during this period and allowed her to move forwards through it. Some of the ideas she talked about were extremely interesting to me too. I've been trying different things for decades and yet there were still a couple of new ideas here that I haven't considered before.
For people experiencing depression over a longer timeframe, the experience may be different. But neither experience is invalid, nor invalidates the other.
Hope you continue to push through your bipolar! I've been told my depression is "mildly bipolar" whatever that means, but I definitely don't experience the extreme swings on a regular basis that are typically described in relation to bipolar.
Problem is the author, as most people that say they are depressed self-diagnose. And gives advice. How would people react if author self-diagnosed cancer and gave advice on how to cure it? Depression is disabling illness, why such lightly take?
The thing is, this is just a person writing about their experience. Using a common “label” of depression that we all largely understand.
I struggle to see this as a negative. I’ve been officially diagnosed, maybe she hasn’t. Who cares? Her experience is still valid, the techniques and ideas are useful and frankly more people should be encouraged to write about their personal experiences like this without being admonished for it. I see no malice or ill intent in this article. Or even trivialisation, given the brief eluding towards suicidal thoughts.
Even medical professionals can’t agree on the exact definition of depression. And if you read the DSM you’ll see that many of the diagnostic criteria are at odds with current scientific knowledge and understanding (the official diagnostic criteria understandably lags quite a bit).
It’s not a perfect science. But we seem to just be debating whether this person has the right to call their condition “depression” or not. I’m gonna call it and say that she does.
I think the main issue with the article is it has big wow-thanks-im-cured energy. Just do some of that low-activation exercise and cook for yourself, and whammo cheat code!
It comes across as patronizing for those who know what things can or should give a mood boost, but lack the activation energy, or don't get much benefit from the outcome.
I think the thing I'm stuck on is how someone talking solely about their own personal lived experience during a low point in their life can possibly be patronising?
Is this not an interpretation that we as readers can choose or not choose? As opposed to something the author is doing to us?
If she was saying "depressed people should just do X, what's all the fuss about. Losers." then maybe I would feel patronised. But she's not doing that.
It's obviously a sensitive topic because a lot of people seem to share your view.
Well for one, because if you ask 5 psychiatrists you'll get mixed diagnoses.
You act as if the diagnosis for depression is some black or white thing. We know for a fact that it isn't by the way that it is diagnosed.
Parkinson is also not a black and white thing. I have bodily tremors due to my depression, can I self diagnose parkinsons and start giving advice? Would you approve?
Sure, why not? You have tremors so maybe you have some tips and tricks to help other people.
Getting a diagnosis from a psychiatrist that tells you that you have depression doesn't make your advice any more or less qualified.
When I was in my teens I answered like 5 questions on a piece of paper (on a scale of 1-10 type questions) and was instantly prescribed anti-depressants. That's the state of our medical system right now.
I don’t think anyone would argue your experience was ideal, though context matters. That being said, it’s anecdata- the clinical definition of the various forms of depression are fairly well defined and a qualified mental health professional should be able to diagnose with general accuracy.
Put another way - it’s like diagnosing cancer. Sometimes it’s so obvious that any doctor can see it. Sometimes it might be benign or malignant, and it might be hard to tell.
Regardless, I would be pretty skeptical of someone who said, “hey I have cancer and here’s how I fixed it” who was never diagnosed in the first place.
In this case it’s entirely possible the author had adjustment disorder/situational depression, which for many/most people will clear itself up, and it helps if you exercise, sleep well, eat well, etc. That’s a very different thing than persistent clinical depression, and telling someone that all they have to do is work out and eat well and get outside is almost cruel.
> and telling someone that all they have to do is work out and eat well and get outside is almost cruel.
Except the author doesn't do this. They describe a system in which they track and observe what doesn't and what does work for them. Only someone that's living with a victim mentality would suggest that this is an attack on their own situation.
I'm tired of the suffering-olympics that people put on. "This person isn't as depressed as me. I've got a medical professional to confirm this, therefore what you've shared is unhelpful to anybody"
Surely you realize how ridiculous this position is?
Let me frame it another way - if someone said, "Hey, I have ALS, and here's what I did to fix it" - would we be having the same conversation? Or, "Hey, I have pancreatic cancer, and instead of medicine, I'm going with a fruits and coffee enema approach"
We would be talking about how irresponsible it is - which in fact, we did on this very site:
To be clear - I am not a victim, I have never suffered from clinical depression. I don't care about the victim olympics. But there's a whole host of conditions where we immediately disregard people who say they fixed it themselves, or tried to fix it themselves. But take something like depression and we are saying that "hey this worked for someone else so we should consider it, and criticizing it is a victim mentality"
> When I was in my teens I answered like 5 questions on a piece of paper (on a scale of 1-10 type questions) and was instantly prescribed anti-depressants. That's the state of our medical system right now.
Amusingly(?) this was pretty much my diagnostic experience too.
It seems like you're suggesting that if the "lifestyle"-type techniques described in the article aren't a solution to your specific situation, then it's condescending and useless to describe those techniques. I don't agree, and I don't think the author was proposing to lay out some universal program for eliminating all forms of depression. She was merely describing what was helpful for her.
Obviously people who have more serious conditions may need different interventions, and needless to say there is a whole pharmacopeia of chemical tweaks to be explored above and beyond lifestyle modifications. Those are also valid and valuable.
The blog post is not properly describing the person merely was having a rut. Temporary unhappiness. Not clinical depression. However saying all that up front would make the post far less interesting and make the person far less interesting.
Clinical depression isn’t that serious or a condition for some people. It still isn’t the non factor the blogger had.
First thing first: did the author had clinically diagnosed depression? Or was a self-assessment?
What would people think if bloggers start giving advice on how to sort out cancer because they felt some lump in their leg, self-diagnose and decided to cure it with massage? Or giving advice on how to cure cirrhosis because their liver hurt for a couple of weeks. But with depression, for most, it's fine.
I find this kind of comment frustrating. The author repeatedly, throughout the article acknowledges her privilege (e.g. financial security to quit her job) and that these techniques are specific to her. Not just a disclaimer at the bottom.
The top comment of HN discussions almost always seems to be a cynical takedown with the least-charitable interpretation of an author's words while assuming the worst intentions.
It isn't remotely fair to call HN "the most toxic corner of the internet". Like any large(ish) forum, it gets a wide distribution of comments. Inevitably some are toxic—that's how the pubic internet unfortunately works. But the overwhelming majority are not toxic, as anyone can see for themselves simply by scrolling through the public feed: https://news.ycombinator.com/newcomments.
Having worked hard for years to try to reduce toxicity on this site, I'm definitely open to getting better at it—I know how frustrating it is not to be able to have more of an effect. But it doesn't seem right to be complaining about toxicity in others while clearly adding it yourself.
You could take it that way if you like but it resonated with me. During the pandemic I was useless. I contributed nothing at work. I plodded along through life. One day I woke up and lay in bed till the sun went down. I didn’t even pee. Just lay there. The image of the light above my bed still remains with me.
And yeah, at one point, at the urging of a friend I went to Barry’s Bootcamp. Then I started going every other day. And then every day for two months. It wasn’t instantaneous. I was still worthless at work. But eventually I quit that job, accepted my losses (which is hard to do if you’ve always won), and moved on.
The lesson I learned from this article is different. This person needed these organizing skills in that moment. They needed that mental model in that moment. And they had it not because they developed it in the moment but because it was familiar.
Placed in an unpleasant situation, we all tend to the familiar. And for this person, the familiar turned out to be a useful tool.
Maybe one could turn it into an implied insult against one’s own behavior. Maybe one could treat it as arrogance to imply it is a fix for one’s own problems.
But I think the truth is that this article is intended in the spirit of something I, personally, greatly treasure: the honest human sharing of experiences in a way we can glean some truth about parts of the world we cannot observe. It’s a statement akin to “Here are the patches I’ve applied!”
And perhaps when you see those diffs you think “Fuck you! How dare you think this software is so shit that it needs those diffs” or “Fuck you! You think I haven’t thought of that?!” but maybe they don’t think that. Maybe they think it’s just that the software runs better on their machine with those diffs. And maybe they’re just sharing in that respect.
Glad someone else had the guts to say it. That was kinda my first thought - "oh she's depressed, but ranks various kinds of exercise as 'low activation' energy? That's quaint. Oh she was able to bootstrap herself out of her funk after a few months, without therapy or antidepressants? Extra quaint."
I absolutely commiserate with your frustration. I've struggled with ADHD and bipolar my entire life. I've been on all manner of treatments and seeing therapists/coaches on a regular cadence, and while I'm doing way better than my darkest times, I balk when people manage to just "be motivated" and do adult things reliably.
I do value the data she has provided, but it definitely needs to be tuned to the person and their current condition.
The author's experience of sudden onset, of sometimes not being able to get out of bed some days, but also able to hit the weights as a "low activation cheatcode" sounds much more akin to cyclothymia than general depression.
I think I understand something of your point of view. It is a little hard to be sympathetic for someone who had many resources to sort out what was a relatively minor problem.
As others have pointed out, she does acknowledge this privilege and so on. Of course, yes everyone's experience is valid and what worked for them might work for others.
I guess part of the problem is that 'depression' is like a long road. Some people are only a little way along this road, some are all the way to clinical depression and beyond.
I can't quite imagine what my current mood or mental state would be like if I did not have the financial resources to at least mitigate or forget about things for a while.
To switch metaphors, some people are in a shallow well and say 'I just climbed out!' while others are in a much deeper well, with slippery walls, and weights attached to thier feet (or something).
Not how I read the article at all. She is not claiming that what she did would work for anybody else or that people who doesn’t do what she did are somehow inferior. Maybe ask yourself why you read it that way? My guess is that it has more to do with how you feel about yourself than what the author is writing.
I find it rather sad and ironic that you call his article 'narcissistic talk', yet you are playing the victim, because you allegedly have it worse, half dismissing his situation.
I will add another FCK YOU to these people from me, a person living with Schizoaffective Disorder for 45 years.
As I have said in other posts, this person was NOT suffering from clinical depression. They were at best suffering situational depression, otherwise called "sadness".
And these articles always come from these rich successful people because we all know once you make some money you know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING and you get to write an article about it and make even more money.
So as you said, they wrote about this stuff and then people look at us and think it is all out fault. These neoliberal leftists are turning into the worst kind of people.
And so who listens to me? I have been studying, on my own Genetics, Nutrigenomics, and Mitochondrial Biology and by changing my lifestyle it has enabled me to get off of the 4 med cocktail I was on.
And then she briefly acknowledges her "financial security" as playing a role. Well let's see her trying to do it on disability, homeless, living in a van in the winter. I would say she was able to cure her sadness SOLEY because of her finances.
All people with Mental Illness need to push back hard on these articles because they create both inner and outer stigma that ruins us.
I responded to the parent comment so I won't belabor it, but I think this take on the article is faulting the author for a claim she never made. The article never even mentions schizoaffective disorder and makes no attempt to propose a cure for mental illness. Discussions about useful approaches for dealing with relatively mild depression are not a criticism of people who suffer from more serious conditions.
> They were at best suffering situational depression, otherwise called "sadness".
The blogger didn’t say sadness or mild depression much or at all. They said depression from the get go and made the symptoms seem decently severe at first. Tho again. That is not something that can differentiated from a period of sadness.
The OPs schizoaffective disorder does not change anything they wrote.
It is neither and it seems appropriate to stick up for the comment you are replying to. It's about as simple of an expression of empathy as can be expressed, to treat it as otherwise reinforces the point.
I'd like to hear about what you've discovered. Planning to go on meds but I'd like to know more about self-care. I'm "lucky" because there's a situational aspect to my condition but I know there's genetics at play (family/personal history).
Okay. Why do you have a problem with articles like this (that is, articles where someone describes some serious problems in their life and describes what worked for them with no attempt at describing those activities as universally beneficial)?
It is posted on a blog called "Superorganizers". What does being organzied have to do with depression?
The host stated; "It's an honest, and brave account of her struggle with depression", that is what I am disputing. And I can, because I have experience in the field and it was posted on HN.
To begin, talk to any psychiatrist and they will tell you there is a clinical distinction between sadness and depression. This is the only distinction I am making and I know any of you cannot understand that which is part of my problem both explaining why this is bad. And maybe my vulgarity towards the author was uncalled for but it signals my deeper frustration with the way Mental Health is often confused with Mental Illness and how comfortable people are with throwing around clinical tersm to describe ordinary mood changes.
We all get sad, it is human, and yes, there are skills to get through it. However, depression is DIAGNOSED when you cannot get out of sadness.
"Feeling sadness, loneliness, or grief when you go through a difficult life experience is part of being human. And most of the time, you can continue to function. You know that in time you will bounce back, and you do."
Brie went to a Therapist. Brie might have been diagnosed as depressed. But based what I have read from, Brie was likely misdiagnosed. There is no blood test for depression and therapists frequently over diagnose depression. This is probably more likely to happen to pateints who have money to spend on therapists.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6818431/
"Paris argues that major depression is seriously overdiagnosed. He notes that the term dates back to the DSM, Third Edition (DSM-III), where there was an attempt to distinguish depressive episodes with clinically significant effects on functioning from minor symptoms that are passing and not disabling. He notes that the percentage of the United States population taking antidepressants had risen to 11% by 2011, expressing concern about the frequency with which treatment for depression is pharmacological and does not incorporate psychotherapy."
So on to Brie's article, she wrote;
>"Just over a year ago, I was hit with my first and nasty—and I mean nasty—wave of depression."
>"I’m on the other side of it now. And, from this admittedly fortunate position, I can say with confidence that I’m grateful I went through it. Having my back against the wall forced me to understand more about what makes me tick, shuts me down, and picks me up. And it forced me to make some big changes in my life to get acquainted with and comfortable accommodating them. I wish I had done a lot of this work sooner"
She is on the other side, she "bounced back". That by definition means she was not depressed (clinically). This is the human condition called sadness, it is not a disorder. This is just a definition and I have no idea why people feel hurt that I insist on calling it sadness instead of depression. I have a reason for insisting on this distinction and I will get into this later.
But, to go on, her sadness was situational;
>"My depression came on a few months into the pandemic when the uncertainty of it all was at its height. "
I am not bringing it up to make the sadness less real, but situational sadness/depression, are different from Clinical Depression of unknown origin. She can literally point to when it began and what triggered it. There is no way I can do that.
Why is this a problem for people who have Clinical Depression or people like me with Schizoaffective Bipolar Disorder? Because none of what she offered will work for us. NONE OF IT. That is why they wanted to electrocute the sadness out of me at one point. Our condition is not simply situational. (I can make an argument that clinical depression is also situational but that is more complex and not solved without clinical testing).
But you see, SHE got through her "depression" with these "hacks" and her "Proactive Tracking System". And she has a sections called "Time To Get Happy" where she puts it all together.
Only people who are sad can tell themselves it is "time to get happy". When my depression comes I try to kill myself. It is a scale, i know, and that scale needs marks to measure it by. She is sad, I was depressed. It does not her expeience less true, it was jut not depression.
Now, here is my problem which many of you will not understand because you probably do not have depression and what you can only relate to sadness.
People will read that article, see the word depression, and suggest all these "hints and tips and hacks" to me when I tell them I take Prozac. It happens all the time, even from strangers (I am open about my disorder). And when I say they do not work they refuse to believe it and they blame ME. I am too lazy, I just have to get out more, or do 45 minutes of HIIT and throw some sticky notes on the wall. When people ask me why I am on disability they suggest maybe not working that is causing my disorder!
And that, you see, is how stigma is born. All the Mentally Ill who are homeless, why are they homeless? Because society thinks they are worthless. And that idea incubates in articles like this.
And it is not only stigma from others, it is the self-stigma which is probably the worst. There are many people with clinical depression who will read that article and try her "hacks" and they will fail (because these thing do not help people resolve clinical depression). So then they feel like even more of a failure. This happens EVRYDAY. So how does that help depression? You see, if Brie has a mental illness, and SHE can get over it, then I must be REALLY bad. No hope but the rope.
Articles with this poor choice of wording will most likely increase self-stigma and suicide.
"People with a high level of self-stigma agree on the societal preconceptions about individuals with psychiatric disorders and thus are convinced of their inferiority or untreatability of their mental problems. Self-stigma frequently leads to dysphoria and decline in self-esteem and quality of life (QoL). Social avoidance or other forms of potentially maladaptive behavior are also common. Self-stigma might also lead to suicide. Self-stigma may also have a deleterious impact on the treatment efficacy in mental disorders."
What I am literally doing is fighting to keep people like me alive. It took me 20 years of therapy to see through this bullsht and I refuse to let it continue.
Her article was not a "brave account of her struggle with depression". It was a bunch of tips on how to distract yourself because COVID took all your fun away and mad you sad.
COVID caused a lot of people to suffer with actually having to look at themselves and I do not think they liked what they saw. But that is not depression, it is the sadness of seeing how empty your life is.
She uses "depression" to describe her sadness because it sounds so much more romantic and a heroic struggle that they overcame with sheer grit and ingenuity. And best yet, she actually falls in LOVE!!! What an ending!
If she substituted "sadness" for "depression" in that article I would have had no complaints. What, is sadness not bad enough?
But why is she really writing this article? She wrote it because she is a writer.
>"That learning turned into conversations with lots of people I admire, which turned into a series of consulting projects. And that turned into a capital J Job that I absolutely love and that pays the bills. I hope I do this work forever, and it looks like I might just get to."
>"I acquired many tools for dealing with low moments of any shape and size and maximizing the happiness and satisfaction in my life. "
Why he is the Henry Ford of Mental Health! Maximizing happiness and satisfaction! Just follow my tips on my new App! Read my next big thing!
And that is why I am angry with the article as well, because it seems like a ploy to try to profit off of people's sadness and depression.
Way to play the victim card. What you are saying is that she hasn’t suffered as much as you so therefore she has no right to talk about her personal experience. Really? So somebody who has suffered for 46 years can tell you to FCK YOU because you haven’t suffered enough to know what you are talking about? Have you been raped and molested as a 12 year old? If not then you obviously should not talk about suffering because you are a privileged non-raped person. Really? Is that your logic?
She can talk about her personal experience all she wants, but it was a horrible article that may cause harm to people by increasing stigma in people with depression.
The truth is SHE wanted to be seen as a victim of depression. It made a good story. She was sad, and that sucks, but it was not depression. If she talked about how she over came her sadness I would have not commented about the article.
I would not make a comment about the suffering of someone who was raped as a 12 year old, that whole part was a logical fallacy.
