In Canada the title "engineer" is a legally protected term. You can't legally call yourself a software engineer without going through the Engineers Canada accreditation.
I had a friend question me for calling myself a software engineer (even though they referred to themselves as one.) I've been programming for 15 years (8 years professionally) by 26 but they were unemployed and not practising after getting their BSc.
So in my opinion, there's more charlatanism coming out of academia than from honest professionals who have established a career and deep knowledge of their profession. But then again, I'm not building dams and bridges. So the answer mostly depends on what you're doing and how you got there.
Is there a source on this? I thought this was for specifically for "Professional Engineer" status. If not, myself (3 year college program grad) and many, many others are not what our current titles are as given by multiple employers.
I've asked many times even on these forums and have yet to get a credible source on this. I've been officially "called" sw engineer as per job title for roughly over a decade with 4 different large employers. I've never given this premise much credibility because of that, and perceive it to be wishful gatekeeping. I am hoping for some kind of clarification however.
I'd like to retire one day being able to say I've built a 40-50 year career while being a living, breathing lie. That makes me chuckle. =)
"An engineer is an individual who has been issued a licence to practise engineering by a provincial or territorial engineering regulatory body after demonstrating that they have the requisite education, skills, knowledge and experience. An engineer is sometimes referred to as a licensed engineer, a registered engineer or a professional engineer."
Professional engineer and engineer are both functionally equivalent and protected. You can't legally have the term engineer in your title in Canada unless you are an accredited engineer and pay your dues.
Also, digging deeper in for example the Ontario section of your source about licencing:
> Licence “Professional Engineer”, “Engineer” or “ingénieur” “P.Eng.”
This is exactly what I was referring to. They consider all of these monikers to to be in a "Professional Engineer" context. To interpret: not all engineers are professional engineers, but all professional engineers are engineers, and they will fight tooth and nail for the P.Eng protection. Hence my question about "Professional Engineer" status.
Not quite. All engineers are professional engineers. The term engineer is protected and you are not an engineer unless you also are a professional engineer. No P.Eng. then you're not allowed to advertise yourself as an engineer.
The vast majority of people without P.Eng do not advertise themselves as engineers as deception, as it's their employers which have given this title. If that is still against the law, I suppose I am witness to many thousands of companies breaking the law by employing many more thousands of people that they have labelled as engineer, yet without P.Eng.
LinkedIn would be a simple search on this. Can you say why there are no fines or action being taken? I work with hundreds who have been given the engineer title, yet many more of us do not have P.Eng designation than those that do. How on Earth have the thousands upon thousands of us not been contacted even once in our decade(s) of employment, over multiple companies? We are openly breaking the law, after all, correct?
I believe the employees personally would be exempt, correct? As they are have been given these titles by their employing body and not self proclaiming a different title given upon them.
This source would need to serve as a proxy to the real source (if it exists) in law that claims these rules are in fact, actual law. That is what is being asked. This is not law, it rather a organization on a plight to attempt to make it law. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I have never heard of a software engineer *requiring* a licence to do their work. How many titles out there have sales engineer? Have you ever heard of a Sales Engineering program to graduate from? I'm not one to flaunt laws, but it's hard to imagine a large portion of companies, some very reputable, are illegally employing boatloads of engineers in Canada. On a lighter note, it's also hard not to imagine that this organization is the personified Karen of engineering gatekeeping. Is there anything, anywhere that actually sources Canadian Law?
I have never in any software engineering position I've ever applied for seen any form of "Applicant must show an engineering licence to be considered". Why is that not ever seen? Shouldn't all these companies be abiding by the law?
I'm simply leaving all doors open to prove it wrong with an open mind, but the evidence has to be clear. Is it part of law or is it not? And if so, from an official source, where?
Gatekeeping is the entire point of professional bodies, and certifications. It is suppose to show that people with those qualifications have sufficient skill and experience to do the role.
This is one of the many problems with IT. I've interviewed many people with IT Security certifications who cannot explain the difference between encryption and hashing.
On the flip side, it is one of the great things about IT, that you don't need to go to university to get a job.
>Can a person with an engineering degree call themselves an engineer in Canada?
>No. Individuals with an engineering degree are known as engineering graduates, and a licensed engineer must take responsibility for their engineering work.
This source would need to serve as a proxy to the real source (if it exists) in law that claims these rules are in fact, actual law. That is what is being asked. This is not law, it appears rather a organization on a plight to attempt to make it law. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I have never heard of a software engineer requiring a licence to do their work. How many titles out there have sales engineer? I'm not one to flaunt laws, but it's hard to imagine a large portion of companies, some very reputable, are illegally employing boatloads of engineers in Canada. On a lighter note, it's also hard not to imagine that this organization is the personified Karen of engineering gatekeeping. Is there anything, anywhere that actually sources Canadian Law?
I have never in any software engineering position I've ever applied for seen any form of "Applicant must show an engineering licence to be considered". Why is that not ever seen? Shouldn't all these companies be abiding by the law?
I'm simply leaving all doors open to prove it wrong with an open mind, but the evidence has to be clear. Is it part of law or is it not? And if so, from an official source, where?
The jurisdiction of the regulation of Engineering in Canada is provincial. Accordingly each province has a law, such as the Professional Engineers Act in Ontario [1], which creates the regulatory association and gives it power to enforce its bylaws under the Act.
The Act is a bit different in each province. The Act for Ontario says
> Offence, use of term “professional engineer”, etc.
>(2) Every person who is not a holder of a licence or a temporary licence and who,
(a.1) uses the title “engineer” or an abbreviation of that title in a manner that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering;
>(b) uses a term, title or description that will lead to the belief that the person may engage in the practice of professional engineering; or
...
>is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable for the first offence to a fine of not more than $10,000 and for each subsequent offence to a fine of not more than $25,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.28, s. 40 (2); 2001, c. 9, Sched. B, s. 11 (59).
only if you are using the word engineer in such a way that would lead someone to believe that you are engaging in the practice of professional engineering is it illegal.
The practice of professional engineering also has a definition under the Act:
>“practice of professional engineering” means any act of planning, designing, composing, evaluating, advising, reporting, directing or supervising that requires the application of engineering principles and concerns the safeguarding of life, health, property, economic interests, the public welfare or the environment, or the managing of any such act; (“exercice de la profession d’ingénieur”)
If the activity being performed does not affect safeguarding of life, public welfare, or the environment you are probably off the hook and not leading anyone to believe that you are practicing professional engineering and can use the word engineer in your title and nobody will care.
If the activity being performed could kill someone or damage the environment and you are using the title of Engineer then that is contrary to the act and if something goes wrong and someone wants to file a complaint with the regulatory body against you for representing yourself as an Engineer when in fact you are not then you could be found guilty by the regulatory body's complaints committee.
So it depends what software one is writing does:
Crud app? probably not professional engineering
web site? probably not professional engineering
software that controls a dam spillway? probably professional engineering
software that controls traffic lights? probably probably professional engineering
software that controls a vehicle on a public road? probably professional engineering
software that controls an airplane? probably professional engineering
Thanks for asking the question and prompting me to dig in to this a bit more.
It is not limited to the title of “Professional Engineer”. If the software or activity could harm someone or the environment so the activity matches the definition of “professional engineering” defined in the Act and the programmer or person undertaking the activity is calling themselves anything with engineer in the title and are not a P. Eng then they could be fined under the Act.
In Canada One needs to be careful as to what projects they take on if they are calling themselves anything with engineer in the title.
We have discovered whether you can use the title engineer depends on if your activity concerns the safeguarding of life, public welfare, or the environment. If it does, you should stop calling yourself an engineer. If it does not, then you are not going to lead anyone that you are engaging in the practice of professional engineering and can more safely run the risk of calling yourself an engineer and being open to the regulatory body complaints committee.
> In Canada the title "engineer" is a legally protected term. You can't legally call yourself a software engineer without going through the Engineers Canada accreditation.
I have seen it argued that because HN is founded by Americans everything should be assumed to apply to America unless otherwise stated.
As HN readership isn’t strictly American, I don’t see why specifying that engineer is a legally protected title in Canada is a bad thing...
From the article, Mat’s previous job was Geological engineering. “His firm was hired to analyze a block cave in British Columbia.”
Also from the article “In Canada you can’t even call yourself a “Software Engineer” unless you’re accredited!”
The article specifically mentions Canada.
I’m sorry if I’m not reading into the most generous possible phrasing of your comment, but I can’t figure out what point you’re trying to make.
To me this is similar to the comments of the form “found the x” on HN. In this case you could have said “found the Canadian” and I still wouldn’t know what point is being made.
So, to my point, HN has international readership, some of which is Canadian, having people on HN point out some of the specifics about practicing engineering in Canada (or any other country for that matter) seems to be a useful addition to the commentary. Some HN readership is still in high school or early into their college or university studies and not everyone has access to the same resources, mentors, or even knowledge of where to research answers to their questions. Sharing on HN is a great thing and can be beneficial to these people. I know I’ve personally benefitted a great deal from HN comments.
The point I am making is that in any Hacker news thread about "engineers" somebody will always bring up this Canadian thing. To the extent I have now read this fact at least a dozen times.
I had a friend question me for calling myself a software engineer (even though they referred to themselves as one.) I've been programming for 15 years (8 years professionally) by 26 but they were unemployed and not practising after getting their BSc.
So in my opinion, there's more charlatanism coming out of academia than from honest professionals who have established a career and deep knowledge of their profession. But then again, I'm not building dams and bridges. So the answer mostly depends on what you're doing and how you got there.