I do think you are missing out on how well Amazon has handled the online purchasing. Not discussing their ethics, just the service of interacting with them.

I make a purchase and it normally shows up the next day. That's unreal (I'm near a distribution center, so that's not the normal 2 days stateside).

I need to make a return, I just click a button and bring the open box and item to any UPS store (there are 3 within 3 miles). They will package it for me and ship it. I just show them the UPC code on my phone with a ripped open box and an item.

They have a good system. This may be US only, but it's easy to understand why they are so popular.

I have separated myself from Google for privacy reasons (except a few things...) and try to avoid Amazon where I can and support local shops. So this isn't advocating Amazon, just pointing out that their competitors usually can't compete on returns and shipping time.

In Germany Amazon usually delivers next day. So does just about everyone else, since all it takes is packaging and getting the order to any postal carrier on the same day.

Returns are unproblematic almost everywhere since a 14 day on-questions-asked return policy for online purchases is EU law (and most online shops voluntarily extend it to 30 days). Sure, I have to package it myself, but that's no different than German Amazon.

Sure, Amazon is great, but so is almost everyone else (at least in Germany). Amazon's main advantage is only learning one interface and one set of processes for everything.

Absolutely not. Amazon is the only company that reliably shows when they'll deliver, even before you order. Other companies tend to indicate deliveries within 1-2 days or 2-3 days if items are in stock. You never know when the cut off time is and if they ship out on Saturdays. I know that's a very hard problem to solve logistically but as a customer I don't care.

I just ordered electronics online in Germany, not via Amazon. It was in stock with a reputable stores. Still, my order from 9am got shipped two days later. Maybe Covid related but Amazon would've shown me that before I placed the order. Returns are fully automated with Amazon, very few other online retailers in Germany have that.

Also the no questions asked return policy is pretty unique. If I get a defective item I don't want to argue with the seller why it doesn't work, I just want to have a working replacement tomorrow. Amazon always delivers on that, others very rarely do.

I'd love to get away from Amazon and I'm not even that price sensitive. But until a shop matches their customer service, I'll stay with Amazon for 99% of my orders.

Unfortunately I have to agree with this view. I'm in the UK and I've ordered from many vendors, including food from brick and mortar shops which offer the option to purchase online.

Although in the majority of cases things went well, the two things that really set Amazon apart is (A) the fact that it acts like an arbiter in favour of the buyer (which I argue it should be the standard anyway) and (B) it doesn't haggle or makes it difficult to return faulty or products I'm unhappy with for whatever reason. Again, though I didn't need to return many products for the most part, when I did need to do that a number of sellers made it cumbersome for me to do so.

For a more recent example, I've ordered food from Morrisons online (a UK supermaker chain) and one of the products was not in there. There was no easy way to get it fixed somehow (like a partial refund or something), which reminded me once again why I buy on Amazon even though I'd very much prefer not to.

> Absolutely not. Amazon is the only company that reliably shows when they'll deliver, even before you order. Other companies tend to indicate deliveries within 1-2 days or 2-3 days if items are in stock. You never know when the cut off time is and if they ship out on Saturdays. I know that's a very hard problem to solve logistically but as a customer I don't care.

Except in NL ... that's exactly what the other stores do when they say "order before 22:00 and have it delivered the next day!", almost entirely without doing the things that make people dislike Amazon.

> Also the no questions asked return policy is pretty unique. If I get a defective item I don't want to argue with the seller why it doesn't work, I just want to have a working replacement tomorrow. Amazon always delivers on that, others very rarely do.

We have a 30-day "change your mind" policy required by law, I thought that was a EU policy, but I guess it's Dutch ..

14 days is required by the EU rule (Distance Selling regulation), the Dutch can extend that in their own law.

> Also the no questions asked return policy is pretty unique.

The 14 day period to return something you've purchased online (or by post or by phone), starting after receipt of the goods, is EU law.

Choosing local/national, ethical, tax-paying retailers is easily worth a very occasional inconvenience for me. Using Amazon pushes that inconvenience onto the warehouse staff, and whoever the government's current spending cuts are affecting.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...

Not in my experience in Germany:

Ordered items on the 24th (a Friday) and they said normal delivery was expected on the 30th (next Thursday) and premium would show up on the 27th (next Monday). Didn’t want to pay for Prime, so went with the standard shipping. Received the items the next day on the 25th (Saturday).

I’m not complaining, but I’ll never trust the Prime/premium shipping again which now just feels like a scam.

On of the major online shops here, bol.com, has a thing for most of their products "Order before 23:59, in your house tomorrow." Generally the other bigger Dutch online shops do the same. Even during current busy times, I've not had them fall short on that.

With the returns, isn't it an EU requirement that they take a return no-questions within something like 2 weeks?

> Amazon is the only company that reliably shows when they'll deliver, even before you order.

Except when it's not reliable and it arrives 2 days later. Or, in the case of the used book I ordered a while ago, there's no indication of when or how it'll be delivered and only at the start of delivery it suddenly tells you that it'll take at least a month to ship because the product is on the other side of the planet.

Amazon is usually pretty good, but even with Prime it rarely takes less than 3-4 days to deliver, most local shops are at least a day faster. And with those I can be sure they won't sell me fake products mixed with genuine ones.

This is maybe true for items shipped by Amazon itself but Amazon nowadays is a marketplace. I twice ordered something where it said 5-7 days, turns out it's shipped from China and took several weeks to arrive. The not-on-stock-despite-saying-so with other shops happens but not very often in my experience.

> In Germany Amazon usually delivers next day. So does just about everyone else

YMMV. I order Amazon/Others about 70/30. The vast majority of shops I order from have longer delivery times, 3-4 days from the time of ordering is what I’m used to.

And then there is Amazon Logistics which recently started becoming a thing in Lübeck. They are on the level of DHL and sometimes surpass them, with other stores you sometimes have to live with the horror of Hermes or DPD. Hermes and DPD are high-risk carriers that only usually deliver and if they do, who knows when. DHL at least is good most of the time. Amazon Logistics is super fast, usually has live GPS tracking and when someone couldn’t find my entrance yesterday (it’s a bit complicated), I got a call, explained where exactly it is, and they set a marker on their internal app for my address.

And while Amazon also still uses DPD or Hermes, if their delivery doesn't work or they brought it to a shop kilometers away, you can just get a replacement from Amazon and will get a refund for the other item once it's back with them. Other sellers threaten to block you for that. I get that it incurs an extra cost on them but I just don't have to time to spend an hour just to pick up a delivery even though I was home all day.

Not in my experience. Most shops ship with DHL, so I order delivery to one of my Packstationen. If DHL brings it into a Postsubsidiary or somewhere inconvenient I just leave it there until it's sent back and reorder.

Interesting how these things have a variable performance between countries -- in the UK DPD is one of the better couriers (informing you of a 1 hour slot when delivery will happen, including a mini-map and 'you are delivery 46, van currently doing delivery 24' info on the status page) whereas Amazon Logistics' rep is somewhere between 'merely OK' and 'worse than average'.

> including a mini-map and 'you are delivery 46, van currently doing delivery 24' info on the status page

Funny, with Amazon Logistics it was the first time I ever saw such a feature :D

I also think the main differences are rooted in the different countries the commenters come from.

Many of the the features commenters in the US seem to value in amazon are mandated by law e.g. in Germany, and thus are provided by all domestic online retailers. This levels the playing field. I have had zero problems with returning orders for many years, most deliveries leave the shops at the day of my orders and so on, and I never order from amazon. The most recent anectode: Ordered bike parts from a german online retailer at sunday evening, packages will arrive in a few hours.

Indeed. And additionally Amazon is absolutely terrible when it comes to shopping for specific product categories where details matter. Bike components are a classic example. In Germany you'll find a much larger product selection (with unquestionable origins) and better prices at specialised shops like Rose Bikes or Bike Components.

Meanwhile Amazon's listings for the same products with specific attributes are a giant mess - it's basically wild west since any seller can contribute to the product listing resulting in inconsistent attributes, unknown product versions and often multiple listings for the same or slightly different article. This also applies to other categories like outdoor clothing or audio equipment. For most product categories there are better options available.

And don't get me wrong - I'm a happy Amazon prime subscriber and enjoy their almost flawless fulfilling process, but these days I seem to only use Amazon for inexpensive, general, everyday items.

Their search system is so abysmally bad - it's absolutely staggering how they can sell AI tech on AWS and keep looking in the mirror ... (don't know if they do that, though)

Such experience is fairly common in Poland, where we don't have PL Amazon at all (we can however, order from Amazon.de). Often we can get much better prices in Polish shops. Moreover, PL shoppers use shopping comparison tools. Our top marketplace (Allegro) introduced a much cheaper version of prime two years ago and it works great. The whole e-commerce is much more decentralized, there is more competition and Amazon is not planning to enter this market at all - it would have a hard time competing.

> I make a purchase and it normally shows up the next day.

I do see how this is alluring but I find the urge to receive an item as soon as possible as a sign for immature impatience - if there is no actual reason for the hurry. So, I refuse to give in to it and happily wait 2 or 3 days.

> I need to make a return, I just click a button and bring the open box and item to any UPS store (there are 3 within 3 miles). They will package it for me and ship it. I just show them the UPC code on my phone with a ripped open box and an item.

Well, in case of other shops the hassle usually isn't much more either. Either the franking is provided as a decal or I'll have to print it. Then I bring it to a Packstation/store (there are 100 within 3 miles).

Regarding the packaging. I always feel a little guilty for sending something back and take pride in really taking care not just of the item but also of its packaging before returning it. I don't like other people cleaning after me - even if they make money of it.

Also my experience before quitting Amazon cold turkey was very mixed. I had several bad experiences with their service. Intransparent origin of shipment, forgeries, systematically unreliable reviews, items in bad shape, ... most shops treat me better.

>I make a purchase and it normally shows up the next day. That's unreal (I'm near a distribution center, so that's not the normal 2 days stateside).

My Amazon.co.jp order got dispatched on Friday from Yokohama and on Monday it was in my hands in southern Finland. This is something I couldn't reliably expect from a store that was within driving distance of my home.

Yea, I order from Amazon when I need it soon. When I order from other places I treat them like presents to my future self.

Most items I order online at other stores in NL arrive the next day. Also, certain online clothing stores have a nearly equivalent system for returns.

Clearly, you don't require to be like Amazon for that kind of service.

thalia is running a lot of dodgy business practices focused on strong-arming smaller print-shops (see German Wikipedia: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalia_B%C3%BCcher#Kritik), I'm really fond of zvab.com where you can order from many if not most antiquarian bookshops of Europe. Cheap used books abound for 2-5 euros per book, a lot of them with free shipping depending on the shop.

EDIT: TIL: zvab is abebooks, which in turn is a subsidiary of... amazon. All roads lead to Rome.

didn't know that. I just like large book stores, so I habitually feel like supporting, and Thalia is the best we have here - nothing like Dussmann in Berlin, though :/

zvab looks amazing (no pun intended)! will order something right away.

Germany is, I think, fairly exceptional in this case.

Living in Ireland, Irish stores can be very hit and miss. Amazon UK is often faster, very often cheaper, has cheaper shipping (even though it's coming from UK), has cheaper returns (returns through the post in Ireland are extortionate)

I'd honestly say in some ways its gotten worst over the years, probably from competition from UK retailers. If you are buying in big quantities, it's best to go with a big company, and they aren't in Ireland. If you are ordering small quantities, that's not enough to keep a company afloat.

It's so bad, when it comes to Electronics, Pet supplies or similar, it's often best to do exactly what you do, and order from Germany and deal with the language barrier and lack of credit card support.

Brexit will be interesting, but I see Amazon had announced in the last few days it's opening distribution centers in Ireland, so i guess it's inevitable that things are going that way.

> and lack of credit card support.

German (physical) shops and restaurants hold a very special disregard for card payment but online it's rarely an issue. Either CC or PayPal (which I also try to avoid) will be provided.

In my experience there is a very observable correlation between online stores per capita and quality of service. More stores -> more competition -> better service. Here's a map with numbers of online stores in some EU countries: https://www.expandeco.com/en No idea where they got the numbers from, but seems reasonable at glance.

Ordering from Apple or Samsung directly, as suggested by the article, even is something to avoid, unless you like paying a premium (usually you can find their products about 10-30% cheaper somewhere else).

However, if you are ordering a premium product, ring them and do an assisted sale. This works particularly well if there is something you are unsure of.

For example, when buying a TV I was asking about a dumb panel with the latest and greatest display technology in a particularly small bezelless format. They couldn't do it (which I already knew) but sold me the smart and slightly larger TV for nearly half its official price with a "free" 5y rtm warranty. Pretty much the same price as I'd pay elsewhere for an "inferior" panel.

And slightly more recently I purchased a new laptop. The price was the same as everywhere else (£2k) but I got a fancy tilt/rotate stylus, 3y care, expediated delivery, and a windows home -> pro upgrade code (it was weird it didn't have it as default tbh) all for free.

Notably I'm not asking for the discounts and extras, I'm asking normal sales questions as though I wasn't able to read the manuals online.

On the other hand, there are plenty of things I rang up about and didn't purchase because it was better elsewhere. On the whole they seem to have been more mid to bottom range items, but I don't really know the internals of these companies.

Buying Apple products on Amazon significantly exposes you to counterfeit products. That's where the "discounts" happen.

That's not true anymore.

Some time ago Amazon made changes to the way they sell Apple hardware. It is my understanding that Apple gave its blessing to let Amazon sell their products directly with the requirement that third party sellers aren't allowed to do so anymore. In my opinion that's a welcome change.

Curious, where does one get products cheaper than Apple.com? (I believe Apple controls the prices third party resellers can set)

I've seen the occasional markdown on Amazon and MacMall but Apple's prices are generally pretty standard.

When shopping for a new computer recently, prices were the same across the board for the most part. If you qualify for the educational discount, Apple was significantly cheaper. If you didn't there were some sites that tended to have credit card portals or gift card reseller sites that offered more of a discount. Even when a portal says certain products are excluded they tend to still come through with the automated discount.

Also depending on your credit card you could get a better deal through buying your own gift cards. I currently have five percent off on grocery store purchases, so effectively any gift cards the grocery store sells are five percent discounts to the merchant. Best buy, target, Amazon are nearly always there. ITunes usually is but I don't ever recall seeing apple.

Here in Australia, for example, you can buy grey imports (i.e. not imported by Apple, Samsung etc) for much cheaper.

With some brands you only get a store warranty, but sometimes you might even get full manufacturer international warranty.

Target, B&H, and BestBuy routinely discount Apple stuff.

If you have insight into Apple’s product cycle, they usually discount the price to resellers a few weeks before they release a product and they are motivated to clear stuff out. I used to pay for college by taking advantage of that in the 90s!

Microcenter on most items.

I just ordered a brand new Apple Macbook Air with 16 gigs for my daughter... I can't even get Apple to charge my card and ship the thing. Their estimate is mid-May... but I haven't seen any traction on it at all. It's as if I didn't even order it.

Germany, right? I bet you have a lot of local competition. In bay area i cant' even order IPA (first aid antiseptic) anywhere at all.

The reason you can't buy IPA is because it's banned for sale in California due to VOC laws.

Same with Ethanol/Denatured-Alcohol products. Amazon actually complies the law whereas other out of state distributors don't. Ebay is your friend there. It's how I got the stuff.

For those confused, parent is talking about isopropyl alcohol, not India pale ale.

Is that a common acronym for rubbing alcohol? I’ve only heard it in regards to beer.

It's commonly referred to that in electronics and chemistry. It's where I've encountered the terminology.

You can get IPA from chemical suppliers. I bought from these guys https://www.stellarchemicalcorp.com/product-page/isopropyl-a... They shipped to my place in the East bay.

Price has unsurprisingly gone up a bit since I bought Mar 22.

Covid has brought some competition. Apart from that, there's no competitor to Amazon in Germany. There are larger shops for single categories (books or clothes) but no generalist seller like Amazon anywhere.

I completely agree. I don't understand why people use amazon so much. Generally I find them more expensive and for many things they only have inferior products and much less selection (not even speaking of finding the right things).

Some other ones which are excellent:

Bike24.de Alternate.de Bikester.se

I know the German market is not relevant for most HN readers. But please don't recommend thalia.de, there are enough other options. thalia not only has unorthodox business practices: https://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/a-709746.html

but they also boycott books they don't like: https://philosophia-perennis.com/2017/09/12/buchhandel-boyko...

In my opinion a book shop should not do this.

I used to live in Germany and now I moved back to India (where I am came from)

Amazon atleast in India is better than anything else.

It's very difficult to source things which are not common place goods.

For example, if I want to buy 3 phase, 1 horsepower motor, 4 pole motor AC induction motor. There would be no websites who directly sell, and if exists then it will charge rediculous price.

Most B2B purchase in India requires going through IndiaMart, where you post requirement (that too can't upload photo, has very small description limit)

Then vendors will hammer your phone with useless calls, asking the details you already offered and no one really replies to text. They don't understand not everyone wants to be on call.

There are rediculous number of vendors who import from China and live around a port city and have goods stocked in their wharehouse, shipping all over India. And they lie about being manufacturer, I am pretty sure they aren't even inserting a bolt in the final product.

And either companies are too big where they don't care about a guy who wants 1 motor, or they are too small that they don't even know how to sell online.

Amazon expanded the available products which can be bought without BS at competitive rates but it too missed niche category stuff.

For example, I can't buy lithium iron phosphate battery online at the moment, few websites appear in Google but they ask you to contact them.

I assume you're German? I'm in Northern Europe and most products I order online come through German retailers: music equipment, clothes, outdoor stuff, bike parts, ... I guess Germany has a large enough economy to support larger retailers, and those retailers put in some effort to attract customers beyond their borders. I think the problems with e-retail in Europe have been traditionally of a practical nature, such as dealing with multiple languages and handling delivery/returns across borders.

I very sporadically order from Amazon if I can't find what I'm looking for elsewhere, but their website has been so infested with spam and sponsored results that it's hard to find a genuine product these days.

I'm using Amazon.de as an interface for VAT excluded purchases. Many smaller shops have better prices but don't want to deal with the extra paperwork to sell without VAT to businesses outside the country. However it doesn't work for items sold by Amazon itself as they will ship it from the nearest distribution center (it needs to cross the border to be VAT free in my case).

For bike equipement, both bike24.com and bike-component.de both are great! Good selection, great customer service and fast shipping, even now.. Amazon can't compete with that.

In general German eshop are the best (shopping from France).

Stores often sell cheaper on Amazon than on their own storefront. The 15€ ball I ordered on Amazon would have been 20€ if bought directly from the sellers website.

On the other hand, I can find almost any item cheaper in some other webshop than Amazon if I look for it. The Amazon tax does push prices up.