Dynamics are definitely changing in India, now more women finish school & college and are becoming contributors in household income. This although is happening in major cities and metros but in rural area women are still not able to receive good education, along with this there are also several cultural challenges which are involved as well. But stories like this definitely share a hope and optimism.
hmmmm.... not so true... My grand mother worked in a school... my mother worked in an university... even my wife and sister work.. I know so many women who work. All these women are not from a big city. so, let us not stereotype it.
First parsed this headline as cooking a curry powerful enough to send a spacecraft into a Mars orbit, haha! "Wow, that's a strong curry, what do you spice with?" "... Hydrazine."
I work in the Indian tech industry (a large service based company in the past and some small-ish startups), so perhaps I can share some insights on this topic.
The reason for the somewhat balanced gender ratio here is much more mundane than what these articles would make you believe.
In India, engineering is one of the "default" career paths for most poor/middle class families children for leading a stable life. It's pretty depressing honestly, children spend the first 20-22 years of their life being a book-worm and they get to choose from a set of "acceptable" careers (Engineering, Medicine, Business). Any unorthodox career paths are out of question unless you are the rebellious kind.
What effect does this have on the workforce? You get people (both men and women) who are barely interested in what they do. Programming/Computers doesn't mean anything to them, it's just a day job which helps them provide for themselves. This is the main differentiation between the US/European workforce and ours. It's not that women here enter the CS industry in greater numbers because of their own interest in the field, it's just that nobody gives a shit about it so the ratio is equal. This is the case with the service based companies which comprise a huge portion of the workforce. The number of women in startups (which people join on their own volition) is comparable to the US counterparts. The current company where I work, out of ~60 engineers, 4 are women.
In US/Europe, you have greater freedom and choice when you consider your career, which you generally choose based on your own interests. IMO, inculcating tech/computers as a hobby at a young age in girls and dispelling the fact that it's only for "nerds" will do a lot more to equal the numbers than any affirmative action hiring ever will.
> it's just a day job which helps them provide for themselves
Is there something wrong with that?
The idea that you need to super passionate for your job and practically live and breath it seems to be a fairly common attitude around HN and the tech community in general.
For me software engineering is just a job. I enjoy my work, sure, but I wouldn't do it if I wasn't getting paid. Most people in the world have a similar attitude to their work. I don't think the secretary in my office goes home and makes spreadsheets and types word documents. My friend who's a plumber doesn't go home and stick pipes together for fun.
I think that the difference is that in the West, we have more options for careers that offer a comfortable life. Trades pay well in the West, my tradie mates here in Australia make as much as I do, or even more. This isn't the case in the developing world, where there is a stark difference between white collar and blue collar wages.
I think parent worded it in a way that's causing confusion. The point is that in India, tech is one of the only few ways to earn a decent salary. The average American has many more ways to earn a decent salary and thus the choice to go into tech has more to do with whether they had some interest (not passion) in tech or not for whatever reasons. Money alone is not an overwhelming factor because you can get equally well-paid elsewhere. In India, that is not the case. You can ONLY get paid well (assuming you're an average person) if you go into tech.
> Programming/Computers doesn't mean anything to them, it's just a day job which helps them provide for themselves. This is the main differentiation between the US/European workforce and ours.
How is this not the case for software devs in the States? There's plenty of people who joined dev bootcamps because of the possibility of a six-figure salary. Considering how financially-driven many developers in the Bay Area are, I think their interests aren't too different from our Indian compatriots. We're all looking for a way to pay rent, hopefully buy a house, and pursue interests outside of work.
I too work in the software industry in India (and have been working since the last 30 years). And i have worked for several years outside india as well.
My Indian colleagues through the years (male and female) have been no different in their commitment compared to colleagues i have worked with in Europe, US, Australia for several years.
And I should add that at least the companies i have worked in "give a shit" about women in the workforce. I don't know whether we have more women that the US - but we definitely have much fewer than there should be - so there is no need for being self-congratulatory. My company (with about 1000+ people) has several policies in place to hire more women and make it easier for them to resume after a break. And i think we are far from unique.
Is it possible to earn enough in the unacceptable careers?
Engineering, medicine, business covers most choices that pay well, and there is demand. Business in particular is a catch-all which will let you get into any industry that pays well.
Of course there are niches outside of them that need a few smart educated people, but they are niches that can only take support a few people and get saturated easily. We have "starving artist" as an expression in English for a reason: there are a lot of great artists that will never really earn enough for more than the cheapest food and shelter with nothing else left over. (there is nothing wrong with such a lifestyle if you are not in my family - if you are in my family we want better for you, and in particular the grandchildren which your life will not support)
I'm not sure that it's a net win to work at more gender-balanced company in exchange for living in a far more sexist society and taking a 50-90% pay cut.
Could the US take some lessons from other countries? Likely. Would women be happier moving to those countries? Less likely.
"An image of the scientists celebrating in the mission control room went viral. Girls in India and beyond gained new heroes: the kind that wear sarees and tie flowers in their hair and send rockets into space."
looked hard to find this one since backchannel moved back to wired and I didn't have free articles to read. Irony!
There's an excellent podcast by Kalki - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06jv110. The only part that irked me was how Kalki mispronounced the lady's name. I would hope that there would be some basic research to get the name of the protagonist right.
I’d think an engineer and surgeon could hire a housemaid to help out with the cooking. In the USA, it’d be a household income of > $600k.
I saw a documentary a few years ago. The woman cooked breakfast, then after the husband left, immediately started lunch. Brought lunch to the husband in a stacked lunch-pail, them immediately started with dinner.
They cooked all day; crazy. Of course Indian food takes a long time to make well. I don’t know how they do it in restaurants. It takes me three hours.
In the USA, parents don't typically arrange an adult daughter's marriage without asking her what she thinks either. (She also was living with extended family, a thing Americans tend to not do either. In America, we default to the nuclear family. When it began with saying she was cooking for 8 people, I assumed she had many children. Not so.)
Also, she liked to cook and if you are a woman and have a career, doing things like cooking is a way to bond with family. If you hire a cook, a maid and a nanny, you spend vastly less time with your children.
I was a full time mom for years. I can't imagine having kids and then just hiring other people to do everything for them. If you want nothing to do with your kids, I feel like you shouldn't intentionally have kids. (Though, unlike some people, I realize that not all children are planned. So sometimes people are just coping as best they can with what life handed them.)
>In the USA, parents don't typically arrange an adult daughter's marriage without asking her what she thinks either.
Same in India also. Arranged marriage doesn't mean forced marriage. It's unfortunate people have this perception. Even in arranged marriage, men and women agree for marriage only if they are ok.
> Arranged marriage doesn't mean forced marriage. It's unfortunate people have this perception. Even in arranged marriage, men and women agree for marriage only if they are ok.
I don't understand this indignation followed by a generalization. For the record, I'm Indian and have lived for decades here. What you say may probably be true in urban India, depending on the family, education levels of the woman and the parents, economic class, religion, caste and several other factors. But even in urban India, adult women don't have much say in refusing to marry a man whom their parents have decided is the best match. If you look at rural India, it's likely a lot worse.
A woman agreeing to marry a man doesn't mean that she's voluntarily choosing to do so after doing her own "due diligence" and checking if this match would support the kind of life she desires or dreams to lead.
Most of the time, the man and woman get to talk to each other for a very short while, almost like a job interview, after which they're expected to decide on the "yes" or "no", if such a choice is even available. The fact that divorce is looked at as a disgusting matter combined with this decision making process is a big bummer. But I will give credit to the social support structure to keeping things running (though sometimes to the detriment of individuals).
The same matter is a lot different for the men involved. As with many other instances and places around the world, the men do have more freedom and choice.
P.S.: For a funny take on marriages in India, watch this movie from 1998 called "Hyderabad Blues". [1] Most of it still holds true now.
Everything you say about India is true, and its opposite.
For the record, i can safely say that arranged marriages without the couple even meeting were common in my parents generation upto the 60s, became unusual in my generation (I don't know of any case in my family) around the 80s/90s and now would be unimaginable in my children's generation. This is a mostly (but not completely) urban middle class experience, spanning a very large family in north and west of India.
Things are different in the North vs the South, rural vs urban, poor and rich, different religions probably and so on. We are probably the most heterogenous society on earth, so this is not surprising.
I usually find a lot to agree with in your posts, but this time I want to push back on arranged marriage = forced marriage. That's just false.
Also want to push back a bit on having kids and then "just hiring other people to do everything for them". Many cultures have extended family, grandparents, other wives, other adults/older children do child care. The nuclear model is not the norm in the world or in history and we should examine that. Economics in India are pretty different, and it's seen as a responsibility to the community to employ people as cooks/maids/drivers/nannies. If you don't hire people and you can, you're a selfish person not contributing to the welfare of your community. Americans hire help to free up time for work; it's not the same aesthetic in India. Moreover, the number of full-time dads is still disappointingly low, though it isn't brought up when we talk about SpaceX or NASA. Thanks, though, for acknowledging that not all children are planned and that options for planning are eroding.
I usually find a lot to agree with in your posts, but this time I want to push back on arranged marriage = forced marriage. That's just false.
For the record, I upvoted the other comment that made this same point (as well as your comment). I considered thanking them, but long history suggests such comments by me go weird and problematic places. I don't know a fix for that, so I sometimes upvote as my only expression of gratitude for a good contribution to the discussion.
Many cultures have extended family, grandparents, other wives, other adults/older children do child care.
In my eyes, that is completely different from just hiring help.
FWIW, when my brother got custody of his infant son during his divorce, my father officially retired and stayed home with the child while my brother and mother continued working. My father never changed a single diaper for any of his own kids. I think he was in his 60s when he learned to change a diaper so he could provide childcare for his grandchild.
I have my reservations about the two career couple model that is promoted by so many people. It is promoted as a women's equality thing, but the reality is that those children are typically being raised by a woman, just not their own mother. It actually creates a class divide if you really think about it.
I don't know the solution, but we need to spend more time figuring out how to resolve this conflict without shortchanging some demographic. I don't see that issue being discussed enough.
Thank you for your comment. I think you misread part of mine, but if others also misread it, it's good to get that information out there.
> I want to push back on arranged marriage = forced marriage. That's just false.
As someone in India, I responded to a similar comment above explaining why such indignation and generalization would be inappropriate and incorrect. Please see
In my experience, having dated legit Indian women, housemaids are extremely common. Even low income families, had someone of even lower income working for them. Having food cooked for you by someone else is very much a norm for a lot of Indians.
It is :)
70-80% of the middle class homes have daily part time maids. At least they do dishes, wash clothes then move to the next home. Not all maids cook or allowed to cook.
I dont know why you are down voted but this is true. They should be easily able to afford a cook & a maid. Doctors earn well in India. People with less prestigious and less salary have cooks and maids. My guess is this is a narrative.
I am not saying she didnt have two jobs (house work & office work), but the article paints a slightly tainted picture. It is also possible that this family did not choose to have a cook, which is also not uncommon. Especially if they are of certain cultural groups, they have strict rules on such things.
regardless, you have a good point. its the choice they made and it is impressive to pull this off
3 hours? I think it might be matter of practice. It takes my partner and I about 30-40 mins to cook a full Indian dinner for the two of us from scratch, these days.
I remember it used to take about 80-90 mins when we were less coordinated in the kitchen, but nowadays we've got a pretty smooth supply chain going!
The subject matter is about a woman managing a high intensity career and taking care of a large family, so perhaps not. It's worth thinking about though.
It is also a bit stereotypical to think that an engineer woman should not be interested in cooking a meal for her family or doing chores at home. In the podcast I pointed to above - Dakshayani mentions her love for cooking and interestingly compares cooking to coding.
I was gonna comment the same, so thanks for getting all the downvotes :)I think it's not that sexist but at first I was shocked. Now I think it is just using way too many stereotypes in one sentence. I think they realized it was sexist but thought "but we're the BBC, they will know we don't mean it like that" (which is probably true).
just the opposite - it's highlighting the sexism she has to face, where she is expected to put in a full day's work and also do housework, including cooking for eight people.
Presumably she had some control over her fecundity? She could also, partner with someone willing to cook meals?
The whole "demanding to spend your life in work, like men have traditionally had to do" and then complaining that now you've got work and family to manage is bizarre. There's only a certain amount of time -- spend it working or raising a family, you really have to choose.
> Presumably she had some control over her fecundity? She could also, partner with someone willing to cook meals?
I wish those things could be taken for granted, but...
Fecundity: Not saying this is true for her in particular, but I suspect the woman sometimes has remarkably little say in birth control (think husbands refusing to wear a condom, doctors and pharmacists refusing to supply birth control pills, etc) or even frequency of sex (from the belief that a wife is not doing her marital duties if she refuses sex, to refusing to prosecute even violent outright rape when she does).
Partner: the article says her marriage was arranged (which I understand to be common), so I wouldn't assume she had much say in it at all:
> A year after she began working at Isro, her parents arranged her marriage to orthopaedic surgeon Dr Manjunath Basavalingappa - which meant that she suddenly had a household to run.
By the way, the article also gives a reason her husband doesn't help out with household duties (besides societal expectations that she'd do it all)...
> Dr Basavalingappa explains that as a doctor, his working day often stretches up to 18 hours, while his wife mostly worked office hours. Dakshayani seems satisfied with this explanation.
...which I find insane by itself, but it's not limited to India. I just googled "medical mistakes long shift" and found a NIH study...which defined an extended-duration shift as at least 24 hours. [1] Unsurprisingly, it found that doctors screw up less when they don't do that, and talk about setting the bar low...I'd expect >12 hours to be considered extended-duration, perhaps even 8.
