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>I put it like this: I have been running since I was about a year old. Almost 40 years! But I cannot for the life of me run a marathon. I am not physically capable of it, even though I can run a few miles in a row.

Yes, you are. You just tell yourself that you are not.

And yes, you can write a book. Whether it gets published or not is another story.

I don't understand why someone whose job it is to find the next best selling novel would write a post like this. It reeks of something a literary-agent/failed writer in Brooklyn would say...




Agreed. I could run a marathon if I put in the effort. The reason I "can't" is truthfully that I can't be arsed. If you want to run a marathon what you're saying is that you're happy for training for that marathon to take over your life for, probably, about a year, and I'm not motivated to do that.

With that being said Eddie Izzard, with little training, ran 43 marathons in 51 days. He didn't break any records or win any medals, which I suppose is roughly analogous to getting a book published, but he did do it, over and over again, which is arguably writing the damn book.

All of this suggests that I could probably run a marathon right now if I really felt like it. Fortunately (I'll say it again) I can't be arsed. Same goes for writing the book, because nothing inspires me enough to write an entire book. But I could do it, because I've absolutely written a book's worth of words over the past few years.


> training for that marathon to take over your life for, probably, about a year

Nowhere near that long. There's actually a great book ("The Non-Runner's Marathon Trainer") which takes you, quite conservatively, from "I can run a few miles" to your first marathon day in 16 weeks.

With runs on only 4 days a week -- only one of them a long run -- it hardly "takes over your life", either.


I've never run a full marathon, but I have run a half.

My training consisted of maybe a dozen 2 mile runs, and a couple of 6 mile runs, in the space of about a month.

I didn't do any exercise other than that. I wouldn't say I'm naturally athletic either. Sure, I was pretty slow at 2:30, but I managed to run the whole thing without resting or walking.

I reckon that I could smash out a marathon with less than 6 months of training, running 3 days a week. It certainly wouldn't take over my life, and it wouldn't take a year of training.

A similar endurance event I did once was riding a century (100 miles). Sure, riding a bike is a bit easier than running, but my total training for that was about 6 months, riding 25 miles 4 times a week, plus a single 60 mile ride. I managed to complete the ride in about 5:30.

Humans are well adapted to long distance endurance activities. A person of average fitness can walk 12 hours a day for a week with a 15-20 kg pack.


If you need to be "arsed" to write a book and you can't be "arsed" to write a book, then, logically, you can't write a book.


"Can't be arsed" is just an expression, mate. I'm sure you can understand the point they were making.


I think l9k might have been making a more subtle point: maybe motivation/willpower isn't quite so different from the other required personal attributes (in this case, physical fitness) as we tend to think. Perhaps because it can't simply be switched on and off like a tap, but requires training analogous to physical exercise; or perhaps for deeper reasons. (Going down this road pretty quickly leads us into a thicket of ambiguities and philosophical puzzles around 'free will', so it might not be very productive, but it's still worth bearing in mind occasionally.)


Thing is, when looked at in the context of a whole lifetime, motivations change, and often radically. I have friends who couldn't have imagined themselves running a half marathon or a marathon who eventually went on to do so. 10 years ago I couldn't have imagined myself doing an obstacle race, but then I started working out[1] and, hey presto, the impossible became possible. I still don't want to run a marathon, even though I know I could, because of the compromises it would force on me in terms of strength training, depending on what kind of time I'd like to finish in.

[1] I couldn't have imagined working out either but at 36 years old I found myself getting tired out walking upstairs, and having a torrid time with any kind of reasonably intense physical activity, and realised I needed to do something about it to avoid serious health problems later in life - and possibly not that much later.


I think you are confused. "Not being arsed" to do something is the same whether it is running a marathon or a writing a book.


He cant be arsed.


I could run a marathon if I put in the effort. The reason I "can't" is truthfully that I can't be arsed

Well, so could any human being. I've run a bunch of Marathons, and I've personally seen people with no legs complete them. The only significant difference between those who have completed a Marathon and those who haven't is who could be arsed to do it. But I don't think that extrapolates to any human endeavour. Highly motivated people can work their entire lives and something, and still fail.


But I could do it, because I've absolutely written a book's worth of words over the past few years.

It depends on the genre and if it's fiction or non-fiction. Non fiction, yes. But fiction is harder because of stylistic attributes and the fact it all has to connect. It's not like writing 300 300-word blog posts.


> But fiction is harder

Too general a statement. Sure, an engaging consistent story is much harder than, say, the average cookbook or travel guide.

But many textbooks in science and math seem like absolutely Herculean effort. Gravitation[1] by Misner, Thorne, & Wheeler (a work of non-fiction) in my opinion would be the equivalent in intellectual effort to several thousand average works of fiction.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Gravitation-Charles-W-Misner/dp/06911...


>Non fiction, yes. But fiction is harder because of stylistic attributes and the fact it all has to connect.

Ever read Dan Brown?


That isn't a counterargument. Regardless of whether or not you think someone's writing is good, to your taste, or nuanced, there's still considerable (and, I think, reasonably rare) skill involved in making something that the general public wants to pluck off of the paperback shelves (or e-reader equivalent). It might be tawdry, silly, and factually inaccurate, but those qualities are orthogonal to whether or not you can write a story that people want to buy.


>there's still considerable (and, I think, reasonably rare) skill involved in making something that the general public wants to pluck off of the paperback shelves

Is there? The general public can be sold any kind of crap that takes minimal effort -- and in the same way, don't buy masterpieces that take tremendous effort and skill to create.

>It might be tawdry, silly, and factually inaccurate, but those qualities are orthogonal to whether or not you can write a story that people want to buy.

This isn't an argument on actual writing skill though.

It's like you measure a new category like "skill of writing best-selling stuff" that's not necessarily connected to the skill of writing itself -- just to the degree of sales.

But one can sell bad stuff or skilless stuff too. Sales don't show anything more than a skill in sales themselves.


Renowned author Dan Brown


It could be a book of short stories, perhaps. Plus, with self-publishing these days, the bar to publish is probably the lowest it's ever been.


Nonfiction is only harder if you are trying to make it interesting. Outside of that, it is very much easier.


>Yes, you are. You just tell yourself that you are not.

Eeesh. Any able-bodied person can walk a marathon, given sufficient motivation. You might be able to run parts of it, but you can't run a marathon through sheer force of will if you haven't done the training.

A book is technically just a bunch of bound pages, so anyone can write one in the loosest sense of the word. I can just type the word "beige" 80,000 times and call it a day. Writing a book that someone will actually read past the first chapter requires a certain level of skill. The author isn't telling people not to try - his closing paragraph makes that clear - but he's warning people of the amount of work and practice involved in writing something that people want to read.

To quote the great Ronnie Coleman, "everybody wanna to be a bodybuilder, but ain't nobody wanna lift no heavy-ass weight". The number of people who like the idea of being an author is vastly greater than the number of people willing to learn how to write well. If you enjoy the process of writing, then by all means write for your own pleasure. If you harbour dreams of being the next J.K. Rowling, you're likely to be sorely disappointed.


I think "if you haven't done the training" is the operative phrase. Similarly nobody could write a novel if they hadn't learned to write, or read enough, etc. If a healthy person wants to run a marathon they will be able to by a process of training.

The original metaphor is a bit off. Anyone who puts in the effort could write fifty thousand words on the same theme or plot. Likewise anyone could complete a marathon with enough training and effort. A better comparison would be writing a novel that people would pay to read, and completing a marathon so quickly that people would pay you to do it.

While everyone can do the amateur version of these tasks not everyone can do the professional certain.


>A better comparison would be writing a novel that people would pay to read, and completing a marathon so quickly that people would pay you to do it.

It's not merely a case of writing something that someone would pay to read, but writing something that someone would read at all. That's a considerably lower hurdle, but one that many authors never vault. Every day, the slush piles of publishers swell with lovingly-crafted novels that will, in all likelihood, never be read by anyone.

The parallel I might draw is with a singer so dreadfully tone deaf that their neighbours lodge a complaint, or a comedian so bad that they are booed off stage at an open-mic night. Most first-time novelists are precisely that awful - their work is not merely of insufficient quality to attract a paying audience, but actively repellent. Few budding authors are prepared for that level of disappointment.


> You might be able to run parts of it, but you can't run a marathon through sheer force of will if you haven't done the training.

Yes, and you can't write a book if you can't read, or structure a sentence, or have a computer/typewriter/crayon, etc...


Tell that to my knees.

I'm mostly fine walking around. I can even do short flights of stairs. In fact, up until a few years ago they only bothered me when I sat in a really unergonomic chair for a while. Then someone convinced me to try this "couch to 5k" thing, and said that literally anyone could do it, and that I liked like I weighed maybe half as much as people that'd actually followed the timetable and gone from couch to 5k.

Fast forward two months. The doctor says "stay off your feet and see if it gets better". They haven't started feeling better. It's been almost three years.

I understand the viewpoint you're trying to hold, and I sympathize. Knowing there are things you can't do really sucks. Especially when you try and fail at something you really wanted, in Brooklyn or otherwise. Unfortunately, you're being a little bit insensitive, verging on offensive. "Just put down the crutches and walk". "Just stop being depressed and be happy". "Just focus". "Just try harder". "Just stop telling yourself you're incapable".


Tell that to my knees

Almost came here with this exact same comment. Absolutely not amount of motivation or feel good thinking about my own capabilities and willingness to 'do the damn thing' can surmount the sheer agony and pain I feel after a 2 mile run (because that's the most I can bear to stand) after years of jumping out of airplanes for a living (US Military) over 12 years.

Ever have your knee shattered to pieces and fracture a femur after having a chute partially open and hitting the ground at 6ft/sec? Lemme tell you something: it's horrifying.

You know the phrase "blinding pain"? It's a kind of pain that's so severe your vision literally blurs.

You can see things, you can make out shapes, but your brain is so focused on that pain that vision rides shotgun for a bit. It's a level of pain that can (and has) induced vomiting and loss of consciousness when I so much as step the wrong way off a curb.

Don't tell me "you can do it, just put your mind to it" when my mind doesn't even have the bandwidth to register vision.

There is NO amount of "you can do it" motivational, go-getter mentality that will convince me to push through that kind of pain. Absolutely, positively and without any hesitation on the topic at hand: N-O-N-E. Heck, I stood up once to go get a cup of coffee, turned, stepped in an awkward way and turned my knee and immediately fell over in tears.

So when someone says they can't run a marathon, maybe leave it at that-they know what they're capable of better than you do.


The motivational quotes are told to people because for every ex-paratrooper or person with naturally bad knees, there are hundreds of people with perfectly fine health that they're neglecting or abusing. Being a paratrooper is almost as uncommon as being lazy is common. People with chronic health problem just end up caught in the crossfire between lazy people telling each other to work harder.


there are hundreds of people with perfectly fine health that they're neglecting or abusing

Let's not ignore the other option (among many) which is: people in perfectly fine health who aren't particularly fond of having the ideals and opinions of the hyper-health conscious and uber-active lifestyle types projected onto them from someone who doesn't have the letters M.D. following their surname.


Running marathon is not healthy. It is abusing your body more then is healthy for it. Additionally, people with zero relevant health problems for normal life can still have conditions that prevents them to run marathon. Whether joint normally-non-conditions or hearth normally-non-conditions or I dont know what.

Also, training for marathon requires a lot of time and there is opportunity cost there. I will not blame father for spending his time with kids instead of training for marathon or what not. Nor someone who spends time educating himself rather then physically training. Or reading book, washing dishes or just having time consuming job.

The motivational quotes are told to make people feel good.


Yes, you can write down a thought. Whether that gets to be a sentence or not is another story.

Yes, you can write out an idea. Whether that gets to be a page or not is another story.

Yes, you can write out a book. Whether that gets published or not is another story.

Yes, you can self publish a book. Whether that gets people to care or not is another story.

Yes, you can spread your ideas to others. Whether that lasts or not is another story.

Yes, you can live on through your words. Whether that's going to be good or bad on your name is another story.

But through it all, all that matters is what you choose to self identify as. Whether you survive, benefit, or take over the industry built up before you or by others, is another story.


In the greater scheme of things, as long as you can get it self-published and archived somewhere meaningful (which is not particular difficult as far as I know), maybe 300 years from now when you're dead and buried maybe your audience will find you.

A number of famous composers were not 'successful' in their time, same with painters, same with some writers (A Confederacy of Dunces comes to mind), later after their death they gained acclaim.

I think the mere act of creation and distribution of art is the goal in itself, and with technology you can keep it around for a long time.

To say something isn't popular doesn't mean it's not good. In 200 years conservatories of music are not going to be talking about Taylor Swift despite her engineered success, who knows who they'll be talking about!


So then, you agree with the last paragraph of the article?


the reason why some ppl cannot run well is due to lactic acid buildup and VO2 max level. This means some people will cramp up and get exhausted no matter how hard they train or even if they lose weight. Similarly, with regard to writing, some people are simply not smart enough. If you didn't get a near-perfect score on the verbal part of the SAT, maybe fiction writing is not for you (but non-fiction is always a possibly).


The overwhelming majority of people are capable of running a marathon distance, even if at a slow pace. Not perhaps today, but by working up to it in a very achievable way.

Similarly, the overwhelming majority can produce a book length manuscript, even if it isn't particularly remarkable. Again, they may need to work up to it.

In this, near-perfect verbal SAT is pretty much irrelevant.


But I mean a good marathon time, and getting a book accepted by a publisher, in which there is an advance and royalties (not self-publishing).

If by publishing you mean Amazon, then yeah, anyone can do that. Even robots can. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-kindle-spam/spam-c...


"But I mean a good marathon time, and getting a book accepted by a publisher, in which there is an advance and royalties (not self-publishing)."

That's too low a bar. If you don't make the New York Times list, you're not really writing a book, and if you're not winning the Boston marathon, you're not marathoning.

Or so some would say.


I guess my point was that success in these things at a reasonable (i.e. definitely not expert) level has far more to do with perseverance than "natural" talent or physiological characteristics - you seemed to be suggesting that the latter has far more to do with it than it really does. Neither of them are out of the normal range of human capability the way, say running a 10s 100m is. People consistently underestimate what they are capable of in these sorts of things.

Ignoring the problems and gatekeeping attendant in publishers, I belive most people could write a book that a significant number of people they didn't already know would pay to read (this may fall well below the numbers that would make a publisher interested). It probably wouldn't be their first book. Similarly most people could run enough to post a decent marathon time - again, probably not on their first marathon.

The main characteristic is not "raw talent" or physiology, respectively - the main characteristic is trying, failing, learning from your errors, trying more.

I forget who said it but "talent is a pursued interest". If you pick a random person and they choose to put the time in odds are extremely good they could write an ok book or post an ok marathon time. They aren't likely to write a best seller or break 2:30 - but that's not the point.

It is undeniably true that the overwhelming majority of people will never do either of these, but that is not because they are incapable of it but because they do not choose to focus time there.


>I belive most people could write a book that a significant number of people they didn't already know would pay to read (this may fall well below the numbers that would make a publisher interested)

What's mostly missing from this discussion is marketing. Sorry, but even pretty good books will languish on Amazon (which is mostly what matters) if you just put a book out there, fiction or non-fiction, with the attitude that "If you build it, they will come." (Like most everything else.)

Unless you're a known quantity for other reasons, even getting accepted by a publisher is a tough slog and there is a long list of stories of publishers (like studios) passing on blockbusters. Not that getting in with a major publisher is any guarantee of success but cultivating a fan base as a total independent self-publishing is that much harder.

(In addition, as someone who does a lot of writing and editing, you're also probably optimistic about the abilities of said random person.)


That’s why I chose “significant number” rather than a sales figure ... the whole commercial aspect is a separable issue, imo.


I got a near perfect score on the verbal part of the SAT, but I don't see how good reading comprehension and a large vocabulary are particularly important to being a good storyteller. Reading comprehension is mostly about subject knowledge and vocabulary is something you can learn.

If you can craft an engaging story and you have the motivation to write, an editor (or a thesaurus) can help with vocabulary.


>Reading comprehension is mostly about subject knowledge

Actually reading comprehension is about everything _besides_ subject knowledge.

It's about the pure ability to understand something you've read -- e.g. to understand tone, intent, turns of phrase, idioms, writing styles, patterns, argument building, etc -- not about having some particular domain knowledge.

In other words if you read an article about a physics experiment but didn't understand it because you don't know what "spin", "wavefunction", or "interferometer" means in QM, then you don't have a reading comprehension problem. You just have a lack of physics knowledge.

If, inversely, you read an article about something you know very well in real life (e.g. baseball), but miss what the author tries to say, mistake the intent of some metaphor, misunderstand the argumentation, etc, then you do have a reading comprehension problem.

Of course to comprehend something you read you also need to be familiar with the thing it's talking about to. But reading comprehension is about everything else but that part -- it's about being familiar with the written word and the ways people express things in writing in themselves [1].

[1] "Fundamental skills required in efficient reading comprehension are knowing meaning of words, ability to understand meaning of a word from discourse context, ability to follow organization of passage and to identify antecedents and references in it, ability to draw inferences from a passage about its contents, ability to identify the main thought of a passage, ability to answer questions answered in a passage, ability to recognize the literary devices or propositional structures used in a passage and determine its tone, to understand the situational mood (agents, objects, temporal and spatial reference points, casual and intentional inflections, etc.) conveyed for assertions, questioning, commanding, refraining etc. and finally ability to determine writer's purpose, intent and point of view, and draw inferences about the writer"


Yes you can define reading comprehension to mean that. But that's not what the SAT is measuring. Reading comprehension as measured by most tests is largely about background knowledge.

https://www.education.com/reference/article/prior-knowledge-...

http://www.readingrockets.org/article/building-background-kn...

Here's a few articles on the topic with very relevant reference sections if you'd like to know more.


>Yes you can define reading comprehension to mean that.

You don't have to define it thusly, though. Whatever SAT tests test for, this is already the dictionary meaning of the term. The except was from Wikipedia.

Here's a dictionary lemma too: comprehension: "a test to find out how well students understand written or spoken language" (listening/reading comprehension).

It's not argued that domain knowledge doesn't factor tremendously in understanding. Just that this is not a reading comprehension intends to measure (heck, the hint is in the very combination of the words that make up the term).

Of course in order to understand some text in a reading comprehension test, domain knowledge will also help.

But reading comprehension is not about any particular domain -- and tests in that don't constraint themselves to only present texts about a specific subject.


Reading comprehension, as you are defining it, is not what the SAT (and most other standardized reading comprehension tests) is actually measuring. That's it. That's the entirety of my point.


generally, good writers are good readers. Competent writers have a varied vocabulary which does not come across as forced (which is often the case when someone relies on a thesaurus). I don't think too many are surprised that mathematicians get perfect scores on the math part of the SAT, so I dunno why writers scoring equally well on the verbal is different. Yeah obv. being a mathematician is a lot more involved than scoring well on a test, but it shows potential.

I don't think vocab can be taught. The reason is, vocab is very highly correlated with IQ, which is stable thought life and cannot be boosted. A large vocab requires a strong crystallized memory, which is a part of IQ. Most people when they encounter new words either are unable to infer the meaning and or forget it, but smart people do both.


>I don't think vocab can be taught. The reason is, vocab is very highly correlated with IQ, which is stable thought life and cannot be boosted.

The fact that IQ and vocabulary are correlated across a population doesn't imply that, and it's clearly not true unless you don't think someone can learn a new language later in life. Or you think that a person can learn 10k new words in a new language, but not an extra few thousand in their existing language?

>Competent writers have a varied vocabulary which does not come across as forced

Yes competent writing requires some minimum vocabulary. It doesn't require a vocabulary sufficient to score near perfect on the SAT. Most writers limit the vocabulary they use to match their target audience, so having a much larger vocabulary than your target audience isn't going to be that useful.


Especially for a lot of day-to-day writing about technical topics, ornate writing with long sentences, complicated punctuation, and SAT words is mostly discouraged. I'll slip a non-basic word in here and there but I generally keep my writing relatively short and sweet--and my editors tend to steer it in that direction as well to its benefit.


>vocab is very highly correlated with IQ, which is stable thought life and cannot be boosted.

Yet, from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient):

>Raw scores on IQ tests for many populations have been rising at an average rate that scales to three IQ points per decade since the early 20th century, a phenomenon called the Flynn effect.


Performance on standardized testing is not a good measure of writing ability. It mostly has to do with hoop-jumping, a little bit to do with ability and nothing to do with motivation. Writing a novel is exactly the opposite: it requires a lot of motivation and a little bit of ability.


I would posit that the vast majority of fiction writers test well, but very few people who test well become writers.




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