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Everyone does not, in fact, have a book in them (theoutline.com)
89 points by whatami on July 31, 2018 | hide | past | favorite | 129 comments



>I put it like this: I have been running since I was about a year old. Almost 40 years! But I cannot for the life of me run a marathon. I am not physically capable of it, even though I can run a few miles in a row.

Yes, you are. You just tell yourself that you are not.

And yes, you can write a book. Whether it gets published or not is another story.

I don't understand why someone whose job it is to find the next best selling novel would write a post like this. It reeks of something a literary-agent/failed writer in Brooklyn would say...


Agreed. I could run a marathon if I put in the effort. The reason I "can't" is truthfully that I can't be arsed. If you want to run a marathon what you're saying is that you're happy for training for that marathon to take over your life for, probably, about a year, and I'm not motivated to do that.

With that being said Eddie Izzard, with little training, ran 43 marathons in 51 days. He didn't break any records or win any medals, which I suppose is roughly analogous to getting a book published, but he did do it, over and over again, which is arguably writing the damn book.

All of this suggests that I could probably run a marathon right now if I really felt like it. Fortunately (I'll say it again) I can't be arsed. Same goes for writing the book, because nothing inspires me enough to write an entire book. But I could do it, because I've absolutely written a book's worth of words over the past few years.


> training for that marathon to take over your life for, probably, about a year

Nowhere near that long. There's actually a great book ("The Non-Runner's Marathon Trainer") which takes you, quite conservatively, from "I can run a few miles" to your first marathon day in 16 weeks.

With runs on only 4 days a week -- only one of them a long run -- it hardly "takes over your life", either.


I've never run a full marathon, but I have run a half.

My training consisted of maybe a dozen 2 mile runs, and a couple of 6 mile runs, in the space of about a month.

I didn't do any exercise other than that. I wouldn't say I'm naturally athletic either. Sure, I was pretty slow at 2:30, but I managed to run the whole thing without resting or walking.

I reckon that I could smash out a marathon with less than 6 months of training, running 3 days a week. It certainly wouldn't take over my life, and it wouldn't take a year of training.

A similar endurance event I did once was riding a century (100 miles). Sure, riding a bike is a bit easier than running, but my total training for that was about 6 months, riding 25 miles 4 times a week, plus a single 60 mile ride. I managed to complete the ride in about 5:30.

Humans are well adapted to long distance endurance activities. A person of average fitness can walk 12 hours a day for a week with a 15-20 kg pack.


If you need to be "arsed" to write a book and you can't be "arsed" to write a book, then, logically, you can't write a book.


"Can't be arsed" is just an expression, mate. I'm sure you can understand the point they were making.


I think l9k might have been making a more subtle point: maybe motivation/willpower isn't quite so different from the other required personal attributes (in this case, physical fitness) as we tend to think. Perhaps because it can't simply be switched on and off like a tap, but requires training analogous to physical exercise; or perhaps for deeper reasons. (Going down this road pretty quickly leads us into a thicket of ambiguities and philosophical puzzles around 'free will', so it might not be very productive, but it's still worth bearing in mind occasionally.)


Thing is, when looked at in the context of a whole lifetime, motivations change, and often radically. I have friends who couldn't have imagined themselves running a half marathon or a marathon who eventually went on to do so. 10 years ago I couldn't have imagined myself doing an obstacle race, but then I started working out[1] and, hey presto, the impossible became possible. I still don't want to run a marathon, even though I know I could, because of the compromises it would force on me in terms of strength training, depending on what kind of time I'd like to finish in.

[1] I couldn't have imagined working out either but at 36 years old I found myself getting tired out walking upstairs, and having a torrid time with any kind of reasonably intense physical activity, and realised I needed to do something about it to avoid serious health problems later in life - and possibly not that much later.


I think you are confused. "Not being arsed" to do something is the same whether it is running a marathon or a writing a book.


He cant be arsed.


I could run a marathon if I put in the effort. The reason I "can't" is truthfully that I can't be arsed

Well, so could any human being. I've run a bunch of Marathons, and I've personally seen people with no legs complete them. The only significant difference between those who have completed a Marathon and those who haven't is who could be arsed to do it. But I don't think that extrapolates to any human endeavour. Highly motivated people can work their entire lives and something, and still fail.


But I could do it, because I've absolutely written a book's worth of words over the past few years.

It depends on the genre and if it's fiction or non-fiction. Non fiction, yes. But fiction is harder because of stylistic attributes and the fact it all has to connect. It's not like writing 300 300-word blog posts.


> But fiction is harder

Too general a statement. Sure, an engaging consistent story is much harder than, say, the average cookbook or travel guide.

But many textbooks in science and math seem like absolutely Herculean effort. Gravitation[1] by Misner, Thorne, & Wheeler (a work of non-fiction) in my opinion would be the equivalent in intellectual effort to several thousand average works of fiction.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Gravitation-Charles-W-Misner/dp/06911...


>Non fiction, yes. But fiction is harder because of stylistic attributes and the fact it all has to connect.

Ever read Dan Brown?


That isn't a counterargument. Regardless of whether or not you think someone's writing is good, to your taste, or nuanced, there's still considerable (and, I think, reasonably rare) skill involved in making something that the general public wants to pluck off of the paperback shelves (or e-reader equivalent). It might be tawdry, silly, and factually inaccurate, but those qualities are orthogonal to whether or not you can write a story that people want to buy.


>there's still considerable (and, I think, reasonably rare) skill involved in making something that the general public wants to pluck off of the paperback shelves

Is there? The general public can be sold any kind of crap that takes minimal effort -- and in the same way, don't buy masterpieces that take tremendous effort and skill to create.

>It might be tawdry, silly, and factually inaccurate, but those qualities are orthogonal to whether or not you can write a story that people want to buy.

This isn't an argument on actual writing skill though.

It's like you measure a new category like "skill of writing best-selling stuff" that's not necessarily connected to the skill of writing itself -- just to the degree of sales.

But one can sell bad stuff or skilless stuff too. Sales don't show anything more than a skill in sales themselves.


Renowned author Dan Brown


It could be a book of short stories, perhaps. Plus, with self-publishing these days, the bar to publish is probably the lowest it's ever been.


Nonfiction is only harder if you are trying to make it interesting. Outside of that, it is very much easier.


>Yes, you are. You just tell yourself that you are not.

Eeesh. Any able-bodied person can walk a marathon, given sufficient motivation. You might be able to run parts of it, but you can't run a marathon through sheer force of will if you haven't done the training.

A book is technically just a bunch of bound pages, so anyone can write one in the loosest sense of the word. I can just type the word "beige" 80,000 times and call it a day. Writing a book that someone will actually read past the first chapter requires a certain level of skill. The author isn't telling people not to try - his closing paragraph makes that clear - but he's warning people of the amount of work and practice involved in writing something that people want to read.

To quote the great Ronnie Coleman, "everybody wanna to be a bodybuilder, but ain't nobody wanna lift no heavy-ass weight". The number of people who like the idea of being an author is vastly greater than the number of people willing to learn how to write well. If you enjoy the process of writing, then by all means write for your own pleasure. If you harbour dreams of being the next J.K. Rowling, you're likely to be sorely disappointed.


I think "if you haven't done the training" is the operative phrase. Similarly nobody could write a novel if they hadn't learned to write, or read enough, etc. If a healthy person wants to run a marathon they will be able to by a process of training.

The original metaphor is a bit off. Anyone who puts in the effort could write fifty thousand words on the same theme or plot. Likewise anyone could complete a marathon with enough training and effort. A better comparison would be writing a novel that people would pay to read, and completing a marathon so quickly that people would pay you to do it.

While everyone can do the amateur version of these tasks not everyone can do the professional certain.


>A better comparison would be writing a novel that people would pay to read, and completing a marathon so quickly that people would pay you to do it.

It's not merely a case of writing something that someone would pay to read, but writing something that someone would read at all. That's a considerably lower hurdle, but one that many authors never vault. Every day, the slush piles of publishers swell with lovingly-crafted novels that will, in all likelihood, never be read by anyone.

The parallel I might draw is with a singer so dreadfully tone deaf that their neighbours lodge a complaint, or a comedian so bad that they are booed off stage at an open-mic night. Most first-time novelists are precisely that awful - their work is not merely of insufficient quality to attract a paying audience, but actively repellent. Few budding authors are prepared for that level of disappointment.


> You might be able to run parts of it, but you can't run a marathon through sheer force of will if you haven't done the training.

Yes, and you can't write a book if you can't read, or structure a sentence, or have a computer/typewriter/crayon, etc...


Tell that to my knees.

I'm mostly fine walking around. I can even do short flights of stairs. In fact, up until a few years ago they only bothered me when I sat in a really unergonomic chair for a while. Then someone convinced me to try this "couch to 5k" thing, and said that literally anyone could do it, and that I liked like I weighed maybe half as much as people that'd actually followed the timetable and gone from couch to 5k.

Fast forward two months. The doctor says "stay off your feet and see if it gets better". They haven't started feeling better. It's been almost three years.

I understand the viewpoint you're trying to hold, and I sympathize. Knowing there are things you can't do really sucks. Especially when you try and fail at something you really wanted, in Brooklyn or otherwise. Unfortunately, you're being a little bit insensitive, verging on offensive. "Just put down the crutches and walk". "Just stop being depressed and be happy". "Just focus". "Just try harder". "Just stop telling yourself you're incapable".


Tell that to my knees

Almost came here with this exact same comment. Absolutely not amount of motivation or feel good thinking about my own capabilities and willingness to 'do the damn thing' can surmount the sheer agony and pain I feel after a 2 mile run (because that's the most I can bear to stand) after years of jumping out of airplanes for a living (US Military) over 12 years.

Ever have your knee shattered to pieces and fracture a femur after having a chute partially open and hitting the ground at 6ft/sec? Lemme tell you something: it's horrifying.

You know the phrase "blinding pain"? It's a kind of pain that's so severe your vision literally blurs.

You can see things, you can make out shapes, but your brain is so focused on that pain that vision rides shotgun for a bit. It's a level of pain that can (and has) induced vomiting and loss of consciousness when I so much as step the wrong way off a curb.

Don't tell me "you can do it, just put your mind to it" when my mind doesn't even have the bandwidth to register vision.

There is NO amount of "you can do it" motivational, go-getter mentality that will convince me to push through that kind of pain. Absolutely, positively and without any hesitation on the topic at hand: N-O-N-E. Heck, I stood up once to go get a cup of coffee, turned, stepped in an awkward way and turned my knee and immediately fell over in tears.

So when someone says they can't run a marathon, maybe leave it at that-they know what they're capable of better than you do.


The motivational quotes are told to people because for every ex-paratrooper or person with naturally bad knees, there are hundreds of people with perfectly fine health that they're neglecting or abusing. Being a paratrooper is almost as uncommon as being lazy is common. People with chronic health problem just end up caught in the crossfire between lazy people telling each other to work harder.


there are hundreds of people with perfectly fine health that they're neglecting or abusing

Let's not ignore the other option (among many) which is: people in perfectly fine health who aren't particularly fond of having the ideals and opinions of the hyper-health conscious and uber-active lifestyle types projected onto them from someone who doesn't have the letters M.D. following their surname.


Running marathon is not healthy. It is abusing your body more then is healthy for it. Additionally, people with zero relevant health problems for normal life can still have conditions that prevents them to run marathon. Whether joint normally-non-conditions or hearth normally-non-conditions or I dont know what.

Also, training for marathon requires a lot of time and there is opportunity cost there. I will not blame father for spending his time with kids instead of training for marathon or what not. Nor someone who spends time educating himself rather then physically training. Or reading book, washing dishes or just having time consuming job.

The motivational quotes are told to make people feel good.


Yes, you can write down a thought. Whether that gets to be a sentence or not is another story.

Yes, you can write out an idea. Whether that gets to be a page or not is another story.

Yes, you can write out a book. Whether that gets published or not is another story.

Yes, you can self publish a book. Whether that gets people to care or not is another story.

Yes, you can spread your ideas to others. Whether that lasts or not is another story.

Yes, you can live on through your words. Whether that's going to be good or bad on your name is another story.

But through it all, all that matters is what you choose to self identify as. Whether you survive, benefit, or take over the industry built up before you or by others, is another story.


In the greater scheme of things, as long as you can get it self-published and archived somewhere meaningful (which is not particular difficult as far as I know), maybe 300 years from now when you're dead and buried maybe your audience will find you.

A number of famous composers were not 'successful' in their time, same with painters, same with some writers (A Confederacy of Dunces comes to mind), later after their death they gained acclaim.

I think the mere act of creation and distribution of art is the goal in itself, and with technology you can keep it around for a long time.

To say something isn't popular doesn't mean it's not good. In 200 years conservatories of music are not going to be talking about Taylor Swift despite her engineered success, who knows who they'll be talking about!


So then, you agree with the last paragraph of the article?


the reason why some ppl cannot run well is due to lactic acid buildup and VO2 max level. This means some people will cramp up and get exhausted no matter how hard they train or even if they lose weight. Similarly, with regard to writing, some people are simply not smart enough. If you didn't get a near-perfect score on the verbal part of the SAT, maybe fiction writing is not for you (but non-fiction is always a possibly).


The overwhelming majority of people are capable of running a marathon distance, even if at a slow pace. Not perhaps today, but by working up to it in a very achievable way.

Similarly, the overwhelming majority can produce a book length manuscript, even if it isn't particularly remarkable. Again, they may need to work up to it.

In this, near-perfect verbal SAT is pretty much irrelevant.


But I mean a good marathon time, and getting a book accepted by a publisher, in which there is an advance and royalties (not self-publishing).

If by publishing you mean Amazon, then yeah, anyone can do that. Even robots can. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-kindle-spam/spam-c...


"But I mean a good marathon time, and getting a book accepted by a publisher, in which there is an advance and royalties (not self-publishing)."

That's too low a bar. If you don't make the New York Times list, you're not really writing a book, and if you're not winning the Boston marathon, you're not marathoning.

Or so some would say.


I guess my point was that success in these things at a reasonable (i.e. definitely not expert) level has far more to do with perseverance than "natural" talent or physiological characteristics - you seemed to be suggesting that the latter has far more to do with it than it really does. Neither of them are out of the normal range of human capability the way, say running a 10s 100m is. People consistently underestimate what they are capable of in these sorts of things.

Ignoring the problems and gatekeeping attendant in publishers, I belive most people could write a book that a significant number of people they didn't already know would pay to read (this may fall well below the numbers that would make a publisher interested). It probably wouldn't be their first book. Similarly most people could run enough to post a decent marathon time - again, probably not on their first marathon.

The main characteristic is not "raw talent" or physiology, respectively - the main characteristic is trying, failing, learning from your errors, trying more.

I forget who said it but "talent is a pursued interest". If you pick a random person and they choose to put the time in odds are extremely good they could write an ok book or post an ok marathon time. They aren't likely to write a best seller or break 2:30 - but that's not the point.

It is undeniably true that the overwhelming majority of people will never do either of these, but that is not because they are incapable of it but because they do not choose to focus time there.


>I belive most people could write a book that a significant number of people they didn't already know would pay to read (this may fall well below the numbers that would make a publisher interested)

What's mostly missing from this discussion is marketing. Sorry, but even pretty good books will languish on Amazon (which is mostly what matters) if you just put a book out there, fiction or non-fiction, with the attitude that "If you build it, they will come." (Like most everything else.)

Unless you're a known quantity for other reasons, even getting accepted by a publisher is a tough slog and there is a long list of stories of publishers (like studios) passing on blockbusters. Not that getting in with a major publisher is any guarantee of success but cultivating a fan base as a total independent self-publishing is that much harder.

(In addition, as someone who does a lot of writing and editing, you're also probably optimistic about the abilities of said random person.)


That’s why I chose “significant number” rather than a sales figure ... the whole commercial aspect is a separable issue, imo.


I got a near perfect score on the verbal part of the SAT, but I don't see how good reading comprehension and a large vocabulary are particularly important to being a good storyteller. Reading comprehension is mostly about subject knowledge and vocabulary is something you can learn.

If you can craft an engaging story and you have the motivation to write, an editor (or a thesaurus) can help with vocabulary.


>Reading comprehension is mostly about subject knowledge

Actually reading comprehension is about everything _besides_ subject knowledge.

It's about the pure ability to understand something you've read -- e.g. to understand tone, intent, turns of phrase, idioms, writing styles, patterns, argument building, etc -- not about having some particular domain knowledge.

In other words if you read an article about a physics experiment but didn't understand it because you don't know what "spin", "wavefunction", or "interferometer" means in QM, then you don't have a reading comprehension problem. You just have a lack of physics knowledge.

If, inversely, you read an article about something you know very well in real life (e.g. baseball), but miss what the author tries to say, mistake the intent of some metaphor, misunderstand the argumentation, etc, then you do have a reading comprehension problem.

Of course to comprehend something you read you also need to be familiar with the thing it's talking about to. But reading comprehension is about everything else but that part -- it's about being familiar with the written word and the ways people express things in writing in themselves [1].

[1] "Fundamental skills required in efficient reading comprehension are knowing meaning of words, ability to understand meaning of a word from discourse context, ability to follow organization of passage and to identify antecedents and references in it, ability to draw inferences from a passage about its contents, ability to identify the main thought of a passage, ability to answer questions answered in a passage, ability to recognize the literary devices or propositional structures used in a passage and determine its tone, to understand the situational mood (agents, objects, temporal and spatial reference points, casual and intentional inflections, etc.) conveyed for assertions, questioning, commanding, refraining etc. and finally ability to determine writer's purpose, intent and point of view, and draw inferences about the writer"


Yes you can define reading comprehension to mean that. But that's not what the SAT is measuring. Reading comprehension as measured by most tests is largely about background knowledge.

https://www.education.com/reference/article/prior-knowledge-...

http://www.readingrockets.org/article/building-background-kn...

Here's a few articles on the topic with very relevant reference sections if you'd like to know more.


>Yes you can define reading comprehension to mean that.

You don't have to define it thusly, though. Whatever SAT tests test for, this is already the dictionary meaning of the term. The except was from Wikipedia.

Here's a dictionary lemma too: comprehension: "a test to find out how well students understand written or spoken language" (listening/reading comprehension).

It's not argued that domain knowledge doesn't factor tremendously in understanding. Just that this is not a reading comprehension intends to measure (heck, the hint is in the very combination of the words that make up the term).

Of course in order to understand some text in a reading comprehension test, domain knowledge will also help.

But reading comprehension is not about any particular domain -- and tests in that don't constraint themselves to only present texts about a specific subject.


Reading comprehension, as you are defining it, is not what the SAT (and most other standardized reading comprehension tests) is actually measuring. That's it. That's the entirety of my point.


generally, good writers are good readers. Competent writers have a varied vocabulary which does not come across as forced (which is often the case when someone relies on a thesaurus). I don't think too many are surprised that mathematicians get perfect scores on the math part of the SAT, so I dunno why writers scoring equally well on the verbal is different. Yeah obv. being a mathematician is a lot more involved than scoring well on a test, but it shows potential.

I don't think vocab can be taught. The reason is, vocab is very highly correlated with IQ, which is stable thought life and cannot be boosted. A large vocab requires a strong crystallized memory, which is a part of IQ. Most people when they encounter new words either are unable to infer the meaning and or forget it, but smart people do both.


>I don't think vocab can be taught. The reason is, vocab is very highly correlated with IQ, which is stable thought life and cannot be boosted.

The fact that IQ and vocabulary are correlated across a population doesn't imply that, and it's clearly not true unless you don't think someone can learn a new language later in life. Or you think that a person can learn 10k new words in a new language, but not an extra few thousand in their existing language?

>Competent writers have a varied vocabulary which does not come across as forced

Yes competent writing requires some minimum vocabulary. It doesn't require a vocabulary sufficient to score near perfect on the SAT. Most writers limit the vocabulary they use to match their target audience, so having a much larger vocabulary than your target audience isn't going to be that useful.


Especially for a lot of day-to-day writing about technical topics, ornate writing with long sentences, complicated punctuation, and SAT words is mostly discouraged. I'll slip a non-basic word in here and there but I generally keep my writing relatively short and sweet--and my editors tend to steer it in that direction as well to its benefit.


>vocab is very highly correlated with IQ, which is stable thought life and cannot be boosted.

Yet, from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient):

>Raw scores on IQ tests for many populations have been rising at an average rate that scales to three IQ points per decade since the early 20th century, a phenomenon called the Flynn effect.


Performance on standardized testing is not a good measure of writing ability. It mostly has to do with hoop-jumping, a little bit to do with ability and nothing to do with motivation. Writing a novel is exactly the opposite: it requires a lot of motivation and a little bit of ability.


I would posit that the vast majority of fiction writers test well, but very few people who test well become writers.


A negative article. I spent 2 years writing a sci-fi about a guy who builds a blackhole powered computer to simulate another universe. It got less than 150 downloads in 18months. I did it because I was doing nothing else with my life. Ultimately it failed to be succesful. But I gained a lot. It really helped me get a lot of crap off my mind. I learned a lot. I also read 400 books and graphic novels over 4 years. It was a rewarding proccess and would recommend it to anyone. So in that respect I disagree with this article. You don't need financial reward or peoples approval to gain from the experience of writing a book. Everyone does have a book in them.


Please post a link.

I have a couple of questions:

i) Have you been able to apply the skills you gained for something else? Did it help you career-wise in any way, or do you just feel like it made you a better, more well-rounded person?

ii) Did you have a job at the same time to sustain yourself?


Apologies, Can't link as I used a pen name for freedom of expression. So far nothing attaches me to the book.

Yes I do use the skills, on email daily for example. I understand punctuation a bit better and many word definitions are clearer. As a programmer I could already touch-type. I repeat myself less and edit down my copy removing redundant words. One concise sentence is better than saying the same thing 10 ways. I don't have as much anxiety or stress in general as writing things down gets it all out and helps you understand yourself better. Turning mentalses into logic. You may even find you logically disagree with how you 'thought' you were thinking. This is very resolving. You also learn a lot about the subject you are writing.

Yes I had a job, yes it did affect it. For 2 years writing became my evening hobby instead of coding. Sometimes it felt like I was deviating from what I should be doing. I ignored those feelings. Peers that didn't know me very long judged me as not being into my vocation (something I normally pride myself on.) I felt this affected my stance in the team. But I had more to gain than other peoples opinions. I've been a generalist coder for 15+ years so was a decade ahead of many of them and could afford to drop a gear.

I admit to cheating in the editing phase. After 11 months of editing I'd almost re-written the whole book. I realised like painting, writing is never finished, only left. This is partly because you're always changing. I tried modafinil, wrapped up in a few weeks and moved on.


link?


Its a negative, click-baity headline. A more accurate headline that matches the article would be "Its harder to write a bestseller than most people think."

Ultimately the article agrees with your perspective. The last paragraph: "If you want to write a book, do it. It’s wonderful and horrible and fulfilling and soul-crushing all at the same time. But do it because you want to, not because someone suggested it one time."


Ye I got that. But in my experience EVERYONE should write a book. If deluding yourself that it will be a best seller helps, then do it. I imagined many scenes in my book as movie scenes. People are allowed to dream. For all those failures like me out there, that's all we get.


The article title is actually “No, you probably don’t have a book in you”.

But the intended meaning of the article is more like “no, you probably don’t have a bestselling book in you.”

Disclaimer - I’ve written a kids sci-fi novel in the past year. Something I’ve been meaning to do for awhile now, and finally got around to actually putting down the words on the page to make it happen.

Now it’s one thing to say “I wrote a novel.” But to be fair I wrote the draft of a novel that still needs substantial editing before it’s ready to publish. I’ve been picking at it for awhile, and still it’s not ready to send out to other editors (or agents).

I’ve been stuck in edit mode for months now, I’ve been finding editing much harder than writing. A common feeling. One writer told me that writing is like a party, editing is cleaning up the next day. Some of my published friends and colleagues tell me it takes a few drafts of editing before it’s even good enough to send to an agent or editor. So I’ve got a lot of hard work ahead of me.

But this article is a bit strange because the author is an agent herself, who knows full well that there’s a ton of editing and a night-vs-day difference between someone’s first cruddy draft and a finished product, for which agents and editors worth their salt will have honed and worked their magic on.

Also a bit discouraging to hear this from an agent, suggesting people’s stories may not be worthy enough to be told. if anything I’d want them to encourage more people to write that story they’ve been thinking about on the train. Can you imagine if JK Rowling heard this and just thought, “she’s right, my story probably sucks, better to just focus on my day job.”

Though the author does clear things up a little at the end of the article to say write a book because you want to write it, not because someone told you to write it.

But in any case, the title is still misleading because people do have books in them. Even if they’re not profitable. Even if the ultimate reading audience is in the single digits. It’s still a book that means something to the author and that small but critical audience of readers.


> I’ve been stuck in edit mode for months now, I’ve been finding editing much harder than writing. A common feeling. One writer told me that writing is like a party, editing is cleaning up the next day. Some of my published friends and colleagues tell me it takes a few drafts of editing before it’s even good enough to send to an agent or editor.

It’s a relief to read this. I’ve written about 135k words an only managed to edit about 15k so far.


Nice, congrats on finishing your draft!

Yeah, I’m finding it very difficult to decide what to keep, what to rip out entirely, what to rewrite.

I blew way past my 75k word target to about 98k words now, and still feel like there’s a bunch more I need to add.

FYI, I’ve found Hugh Howey’s four-part Writing Insights columns on his blog from last year very useful, helped me get thru my draft.

But I’m finding it hard to take his preferred approach to editing of rewriting scenes from scratch instead of altering or spot-editing them. I took a stab at rewriting one of my earlier chapters, now that I know what happens later on, but don’t feel the new version was substantially improved to warrant all the effort.

I think the hardest part for me is killing my darlings, and ripping out the big chunks that I feel are essential.

But I know I need to slog through and get to some point where I can stop picking at it and send out to some alpha readers, then consider actual editors.

I’m still not sure yet if I’ll self-publish or go the traditional route.

Good luck!


>But in any case, the title is still misleading because people do have books in them. Even if they’re not profitable. Even if the ultimate reading audience is in the single digits. It’s still a book that means something to the author and that small but critical audience of readers.

One of the most fantastic things technology has given us, really only in the last 20 years or so, is (unlimited) space to store all of these "minor" works and the ability for the 9 people to whom these works will have meaning to find and obtain them.


I’d want them to encourage more people to write that story they’ve been thinking about on the train. Can you imagine if JK Rowling heard this and just thought, “she’s right, my story probably sucks, better to just focus on my day job.”

The fact ppl keep using her as an example of persistence paying off, if evidence of how rare it is.It's good to have realistic expectations.


I’m not using JK Rowling as an example of persistence here.

She’s my example of a novice author who started with nothing more than an idea, a story she wanted to tell, and wound up writing a game-changing series.


I think this author has the misconception that people only write to be successful, others, like you, write for their own reasons.

I had a relative who once wrote a book about her life, honestly the book was not very good (both the writing style and content), and largely "sold" (or was given away to) only to family (despite her paying for a book run out of her own pocket and shopping it around to bookstores on her own)

Yet she was immensely proud of her book, which she spent years of her life on. As well she should be, while the book didn't meet any commercial success, it had been a longtime goal for her and she told her story to people who otherwise wouldn't have know about it.


Simply documenting people's story has value. I know someone who wrote an autobiography that was basically a chronological description of their life. It wasn't an enjoyable read however it was a largely unvarnished description of their long and varied life.

A large library happily took some copies to go into their archives. First hand descriptions of events are hard to come by. Chances are it will sit unread in their archives for decades but it could one day be interesting source material for someone.


I wonder how valuable something like that will be now that there already exists so much online data and documentation about our lives. Maybe traditional memoirs will still provide some insight, considering that they do at least give an organized account.


The medium is the message.


Has anyone just farted around self published books or fanfic a bit?

Let me tell you: there's a lot of writing that is nearly unreadable. Sure, you can do it. It's probably best written down and then gently carried over to the archives, only taken out for a good laugh down the road.

Writing well is like programming. You have to spend some time doing it before its really ready for public consumption. Then you get to be educated in how the sausage is made and then you have a start.

The marathon example is a good one. You need to put in preparation, work, training, sweat, and then you can do the finished product.

Writers have workshops and critiquing circles. They have editors. Review, review, review. Draft, draft, draft.

The author is critiquing the idea that some genius will hike up their skirt and drop out a diamond, which the agent will then pick up and make the genius rich. Takes ten years of sweat to have a 3 minute hit.


> Has anyone just farted around self published books or fanfic a bit?

I just published my first print book [1] with Amazon CreateSpace.

I learned a heck of a lot technically - I wrote it in LaTeX for ultimate formatting control, then ran it through PanDoc and a bunch of my own scripts to massage the epub how I wanted.

CreateSpace make it extremely simple, in all honesty anyone that has used facebook has enough computer skill to publish their own book.

I also learned a massive amount about writing, editing and so forth. Each new draft I kept saying it was "almost done", then would spend months re-writing entire chapters and paragraphs. Along the journey I read many fantastic books about how to write, and how to make my stories more engaging.

It was an extremely rewarding process. The first time you get a draft copy in your own hands is fantastic - it's staggering and the only thing you can say is "holy sh, it's a real book!" Haha.

I'm already working on my next books, and I plan to write for the rest of my life.

[1] The Road Chose Me Volume 1: Two years and 40,000 miles from Alaska to Argentina - https://amzn.to/2vo3S3G


I was unclear - I meant as a reader. As a reader, self-published work is, to some episilon (where the writers that fall under that epsilon usually wind up well known exceptions), it's all lousy.


> Writers have workshops and critiquing circles. They have editors. Review, review, review. Draft, draft, draft.

Sure, that is probably how "professional" writers get good. But we've had good writers before there were all these tools , didn't we? I find it hard to imagine e.g. Bukowski attending a writing workshop.

Some people just have the talent. Others are mediocre and get better with effort.


Not to my knowledge. The University Workshop as a reified formal system, yes. But the review and drafting system where you rewrite it yourself and show your friends the work, then rewrite; it has been present for a quite long time. My dim recollection is that it extends into the 1700s in English literature as a thing. I seem to recollect anecdotes of Johnson doing so; Puritan theologian-pastors previewed their ideas in sermons before publishing them.

A more learned historian of literature or theology would be able to provide hard accounts here.

As a general remark, the outsider as genius in full flower springing out of Zeus' forehead is astonishingly rare, and should never be taken to be normative or as an ideal to aspire to. This an ancient principle: there is no royal road to geometry.


Sure, some people have more natural talent (and upbringing, background, etc.) But I suspect you're underestimating how hard talented people still have to work to produce quality output.


The author seems to be be ignoring the fact that talent is immeasurable. There's no metric by which we can truly define it. There's no way to know who "has a book in them" except by looking at who has already written books. It's ridiculous to pay attention to the self-defeating naysayers. If you have a strong enough desire to produce a book, then you've got a book "in you", and there's little sense in letting anyone tell you otherwise.

I've experienced similar conditions learning to code and write software. Some elitists have beliefs along the lines of, "if you don't already know how / if you didn't learn at a young age, then you're not a true talent, and programming is not really for you." Those kinds of people can get fucked.


> I'm often sent stories that are way too long or too short for the publishing industry. The average novel is at least 50,000 words.

I find it fascinating that there are sweet spots for the length of an economically successful book (50,000 words), movie (90-120 minutes), or song (3 minutes).

For whatever reason, even collections of short films packaged together as a feature-length movie are rarely successful. Likewise with short written works packaged as a full-length book. I guess songs were the exception in that multiple songs sold together as an album did work (at least until recent years).

It's interesting to think about how attention span, delivery mechanism, costs of goods, and who knows what other factors, created these target lengths.


> I guess songs were the exception in that multiple songs sold together as an album did work (at least until recent years).

I'm fairly sure this was just an illusion. Liking a full album seems really rare, the general sentiment with anyone I talked to about this was that they bought it just to get 2-3 of the tracks available.

Imagine if there was no such thing as a 90-minute movie, and they were all made up of 9, 10-minute movies. They'd appear very successful as well.


philg wrote this about 10 years ago. https://philip.greenspun.com/writing/changed-by-web-and-webl...

But, yeah, the economics of publishing (even in digital) still basically require you to pad a book out to about 200 pages or so even if the topic could fit more into 100 and be more focused as a result.

You do see shorter books coming out from the likes of O'Reilly but a lot of those are sponsored by companies as giveaways. And, if you self-publish, you can do anything you like. But there still seems to be a general attitude that it's not a "real" book unless it's 200 pages.


It's actually possible almost everyone, or at least a great many people, have a good book in them. The hard part I would think is getting it out of them. It takes work and practice.

I've been a professional writer for much of my life, in the sense that for periods of time I've actually been able to eat and pay NYC rent by virtue of people paying me to write things.

But I don't know if I have a book in me. Because every time I try to write things that could possibly turn into a book I read them and they don't sound very good. I know what I'd have to do to change that, namely write a lot every day for a few years until it clicked. But I don't.

But so far I haven't made that a priority, so whatever book might be in me is still there. I think there's a lot of people like that. Many people just can't write and tell stories at all, of course. But many many people can, and would in fact be able to do so compellingly, but they haven't and won't put in the work.


> But I don't know if I have a book in me. Because every time I try to write things that could possibly turn into a book I read them and they don't sound very good. I know what I'd have to do to change that, namely write a lot every day for a few years until it clicked. But I don't.

Could you expand on what you mean by this?

problem: you write down something, but it doesn't sound very good

solution: write a lot every day for a few years until it clicked

How is the problem solved by the solution you presented?


The problem is a lack of skill.

The solution is lots of practice.


It seems to me that you are already a good writer.


Consider it from an engineering perspective:

Problem: I write some code, but it doesn't work very well.

Solution: Write a lot of code every day for a few years.

The implication is that you learn what kinds of things are good and bad through practical experience, rather than simply re-writing the same implementation/prose every day.


But in the case of the commenter I was responding to, they had already gathered a lot of experience through work. This isn't a matter of learning (as they "know" what they have to do), but apparently the solution simply requires such expenditure of time, even for someone who is a professional writer.


Sort of. I have done a lot of nonfiction writing and reporting, including stuff for newspapers and magazines and so on. So I know the general ability to write at a reasonably high level is there. So I know a book is "in me" in a general sense.

But to write a book would still require a lot of practice and trial and error and a serious committment. Which is likely where many others trip up as well.


Because to get good at anything, you need to do a whole lot of it.

You probably have to write a few bad books before writing a good one.


This reminds me of the idea that seemed to be very popular a couple years ago that everyone can and should become a programmer. Nothing is quite that simple.


It's really sad. The original idea is that application interfaces should make programming accessible. Think the vi editor as used by AT&T secretaries, or Excel spreadsheets.

Some concepts and interfaces simply can't be shrouded in clickable widgets that command the computer to perform some pre-scripted task. Just like people need to use math directly and require the ability to input and manipulate simple equations, some problems require the creation of small programs--variables, conditionals, and the encapsulation of these things into functions.

Maximizing the utility of computers means everybody should be capable of not only basic grammar or basic math, but basic computer programming. But that doesn't mean everybody needs to be taught to be an author, mathematician, or computer programmer. Rather, actual computer programmers need to design applications in a way that make it simple and easy to apply basic editing, mathematical, and computer science techniques to the task at hand.

That was the original idea back in the day. Then it was co-opted by social movements in a manner that completely misunderstood the notion. Indeed, they have it completely backwards. The way to make programming accessible (and to reduce the outsized power of the programmer class, sharing the wealth) isn't to turn everybody into programmers, it's to make programming a part of every job.

But the fact that programming is largely still the domain of programmers isn't the fault of those social movements. It turns out it's really hard to design interfaces and applications in this manner, and harder still to keep it consistent across unrelated applications so knowledge and experience readily transfer. Arguably the furthest we've ever gotten is early text editors, the shell, and spreadsheets.


The fact of the matter is that, broadly speaking, basic programming is a suite of cognitive processes that pretty much all come online at the same, reasonably above-average IQ, and they are irreducibly complex; they cannot be further simplified except by rote execution of formal process, at which point you should just let the computer handle it.


That's a pretty bold assertion. Or maybe your understanding of "basic" programming is much more advanced than necessary. I'd consider writing a slightly complex ruleset for filtering e-mail "basic" programming. I don't think that "Put that mail in this folder if the subject contains A unless it's from Jack, then put it in the Jack-Folder" a skill that only comes online at an above-average IQ.


I think one of the best newer success stories here is another thing that, like "filters" and "spreadsheets", doesn't even call itself "programming". The Android app Tasker [0] is a "total automation" tool with over a million installs.

[0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.dinglisch....


I think what this person is trying to say is, please do not send me your book. And I kind of get it. I've had to read slush, I've rejected many thousands of manuscripts. You get to your desk in the morning, and every day there's another stack of envelopes (in those days it was all paper). You spend an hour sending it all back where it came from. Virtually all of it completely hopeless. Once in a great while there's something with some potential. The thing about slush is not that most of it is particularly bad, it's particularly nothing at all.

A lot of people do have a book in them. Unfortunately, it's not much different from the other 20 or so that arrived the same day.


I do have a book in me, but I question its value as I'd most likely be pulling it out of my ass.


The title should be "Not everyone has a book in them". If everyone did not have within them a book, then there would be no new books.


Honestly, even accomplished writers sometimes don't have a book in them. I've many works that would be a great Harvard Business Review article but got expanded into books for some reason or other. You probably have a great long read article in you, book... not so sure.


Pretty much every business book ever written (hyperbole alert) would have been improved by being an HBR article augmented with some detail and case studies that ended up in the 75-100 page range. But the economics of publishing apparently demand 200-250 pages.


> for many reasons too boring to get into here, and no, it’s not just cheaper to do ebooks, either

Guessing he's not counting kindle publishing here, but regardless I'd love to know all the little details of why publishing e-books are so difficult


Charlie Stross detailed this in a blog post (which I can’t easily find). Basically, printing a book is easy in comparison to editing, typesetting, and marketing.


I may have mentioned this before, but that's not what publishers said in the '90s, when book prices were increasing rather quickly. Then, it was "paper is costing more and more!"

And, of course, editing and typesetting are done once and should be a flat fee, not a percentage of profits.

Finally, "marketing" is something that doesn't seem to happen to most authors.


Simple to try this yourself. Print 1000 copies of your book, record the price.

Then hire a professional copyeditor to do line edits, an illustrator/designer for the cover, and a professional typesetter for the content, a professional indexer if it is non-fiction. Pay for targeted ads to reach 1000 click-throughs of consumers with an interest in your book.

What proportion of the cost was printing?

It is true that a lot of publishers don't spend a lot on marketing. This has noticeably dropped off since 2004 when my first book was published. But it is not true that a publisher who is investing the cost in getting the book out the door is likely to do no marketing. Of course they want the author to market as much as possible. But there will typically be a budget line, at least as big as the advance, often an order of magnitude bigger.

> should be a flat fee, not a percentage of profits

You are welcome to publish via vanity press. Where you pay this flat fee upfront. It is a percentage, for the same reason that investors take a percentage of your business, to distribute the risk. Most books lose money. Most books never make their 'flat fee'.


Now print 100,000 copies and see how the numbers align. Sure, almost no books do that, but it's still how the deal works.

> via vanity press.

You realize the general procedure recommended in the self publishing industry is to hire a reputable editor, pay them several thousand dollars, and get results that are comparable to assorted well respected publishing companies.

Yes, the author is taking all the risks. On the other hand, given how little authors are paid, I suspect they're taking all the risks anyway.


I will be over the moon if my novel sells 100k. From what Stross has blogged, I’ve been limiting my fantasies to no more than 10k, and suspect that 1k is much more likely.



No, but following that link manged to help me find the correct one, so thanks anyway: https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/02/cmap-2-...


A print book costs less than $1 to print, $0.5 to handle/ship, and $0.5 to sort/shelve. Books cost around $10, and printing companies aren't growing unboundedly, so the money has to go somewhere. It goes to the process that is shared between print books and e-books.


The weird part about it is that all of the costs that are not per-copy, like editing, don't go down as the number of copies goes up.

The author gets 10-15% of the first copy as well as the billionth copy. (Modulo the "advance", which is actually what most authors are payed for their book.)

In other words, JK Rowling's editor made bank.


Well, probably a more accurate way to say it is from the article

>very successful authors (your JK Rowlings and James Pattersons) help pay the bills for the less successful books

The editors don't just take home the money. They're paid a normal salary, and the publishing company uses the money to make additional risks. But these risks are mostly spent on editing costs.


She, and when she says e-books, I'm guessing she primarily means for Kindle (not self-publishing, mind you).


I suspect that everyone could write a book if they simply committed to some process. Especially when writing of true events. When I started writing “How To Destroy A Tech Startup In Three Easy Steps” I had the emails and Slack messages to work from. I simply copy and pasted all the relevant communications and suddenly I had a manuscript. Then I simply had to add some background information so that the reader would understand the overall context. I suspect anyone could write a story using a technique like that. And most of us have been through some event which is worth recounting.


I published https://makersatwork.com/ It's a great book, but not because I'm a talented writer. It had moderate success, but I didn't tell my story. I took other people's stories and compiled them using a model proven by Jessica Livingston's Founders at Work. It's a book of interviews of interesting people and industry experts. You don't have to be a fiction writer to be a published author. You don't even have to be the story teller.


I think Susan Lammers did the original in the tech/computer field, "Programmers at Work." (Not sure if Lammers based it on something else that was also titled similarly):

https://www.amazon.com/Programmers-Work-Interviews-Computer-...


This is one of my biggest grammatical pet peeves. The title (and corresponding sentence in the article) should really be "Not everyone, in fact, has a book in them." I'm finding this more and more frequently even in legitimate publications and it's maddening.


> But do it because you want to, not because someone suggested it one time.

Does this author live in a world where people write books unwillingly to appease their friends?


This story is a duplicate of Practically everybody in New York has half a mind to write a book, and does. -Groucho Marx sometime between the 19th and 20th centuries.

I hope not everybody has a book in them, that sounds mildly annoying and not sure if someone could cough that up on demand, unless they need to book it to an appointment that they booked. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ C’est la vie.

Disclaimer: everything should be taken reactively literally, no exceptions... straight to the gallows without a cigarette for a passive-aggressive send-off.


I take great interest in people's literary ambitions and hear them out. My hope is that they really do have a book inside them, a story that just needs to be told or a new idea that the world just needs to know.

However, I usually find that this is not the case. There is no big idea. There is no innate storytelling ability. The genre is not of interest. The true passion is not there. Basic grammar is not there.

So why do they persist with the dream? Exactly because it is a dream. A dream to be published and to get validation from the whole world that they are someone. A dream to be rich and to go on book tours and to be invited in to a premium world of literary events. Like the lottery it is a dream to be the one that gets picked out of the pile of manuscripts for a team of editors, marketing people, lumberjacks and bean counters to devote themselves to their words.

We all want to be listened to and recognition is up there with food and a roof over one's head as a basic human need.

Publishing sets out an awful path for people to achieve these things. As a consequence a lot of wannabee writers are not really cut from the right cloth for it. You have to either be really good or have delusions of grandeur to want to take the path set out by publishing. Unless you really do have a story that does need to be told, some form and genuine motivation not tarnished by the aforementioned dreams of wanting the world to fall at your feet because you are up there with the Shakespeares and Hawkings of this world.

So this creates a situation where the people that really do have a book inside them that needs to be shared are less likely to be the ones putting themselves through the perverse pain that is the rejection world of publishing. In a word, the manuscripts piling up at the publishers really are submitted by the stupid people.

Although writing is generally there to create something for someone else to read, hopefully to enjoy, writing should be like knitting and other hobbies, i.e. a pastime that is personally satisfying to do. There is no reason for someone to read what you have written, in fact you might prefer writing to paper in an open ended way to explore thinking that you might not be able to explore in conversation.

Even though the dialogue is between yourself and the page a little bit of 'rubber duck debugging' goes on. You might find that after writing reams and reams of stuff you have actually sorted ideas in your mind to distil the ramblings into something that can be succinctly summarised into an idea that others can enjoy. The book really might not be needed. If the distillation of ideas has been arrived at before getting to the 'final chapter' then even finishing the work in progress might not be needed and the whole lot can be put in the bin. In some ways word processor crashes of unsaved work can be helpful with this.

We are doing pretty good with video and still images with people being able to do these things for sheer creative enjoyment. Youtube and Instagram are good platforms for people to do video blogs or photo diaries. The feedback works well, some people are happy to do this as a creative hobby. You can do videos about fixing your hamster wheel and not feel compelled that you have to be making the next Hollywood blockbuster mega series. You can post pictures of your hamster doing tricks without feeling you have to be the next Ansel Adams.

The legacy of the publishing industry and the state of current always-monetizing blogging platforms has cut a relatively rough deal for writers who just enjoy the creative fun of writing. Unless you want to restrict your output to mere tweets there is this expectation that you have to be the next J K Rowling. There isn't a happy medium where people can enjoy a modest level of writing and enjoy a modest and socially acceptable reward through likes for doing so. Maybe it is time to move on, to not brush people off with 'you have a book inside you' and to start telling people they have a 'youtube channel inside them'.


But what if everyone does?


Let's say we all write one book in our lives, and live for one hundred years. Further, let's say we read ten books per year throughout our lives. Out of every thousand people, every year, ten thousand books will get read, and ten will get written, which means each book will be read by about a thousand people. Which is not a problem, unless you thought you were going to make a living at it.


It would show up under x-ray.


I know we're supposed to downvote short jokes, but so help me I like this one.


s/book/good book/


IDK, I'd have trouble stringing together enough words to even qualifies for book-length status.


Nah, you'd have trouble stringing together enough words that make sense. Joyce threw a typewriter down some stairs for a month and now we all hail Finnegan's Wake as a master piece.


The tldr is that writing books is hard and most attempts fail.. especially if made by amateurs haphazardly and without practice, instruction or plans that involve learning to do something before being good at it.

It finishes with a satisfying lesson in curmudgeon economics.

...

Anyway... it's interesting that so many people want to write a book. They may be naive, but they do know it's hard. That's why they haven't done it yet.


"...it's interesting that so many people want to write a book"

Indeed,

The article's main conclusion, that not everyone can write a best selling novel or biography, is nearly truism in that there are a few bestsellers per months and millions of people in this country (or any country).

I think it the interest of many average people in being best selling writers, along with interest in making and staring in TV shows, comes from the way that all these forms tend to expose the unique, inner, human characteristics of their protagonists. The urge to have this experienced by an audience is strong. And moreover, it's reasonably plausible that just about everyone actually does have inner qualities, that, if cast in the right light, can be extraordinarily beautiful. "All" that is needed is to artfully allow a jump from exterior appearance to inner experience (a very difficult process but one which when done right, seems easy).

The problem is that such portrayal is hard and making that portrayal accessible is also hard and the competition for doing these things separates the few best sellers from the many literary attempts.


My read on why writing a book is seductive is more cynical: most people believe that writing a book is an achievement and signifies something about the writer -- depth of thought and feeling, intelligence, vague specialness, etc. So writing a book seems like a fine way to transform an unspecial life into a special one.

What's even better: from the outside, anyone can write a book. We all tell stories, most of us can read and write, and those are the only technical requirements. By contrast, when you're 50 you know there's just no viable path to say becoming a surgeon or painting like the old masters or finally writing that symphony. The skill barriers are just too obvious and high. But you can start writing a book today, and indisputably, you'll be writing a book.



(1 comment)


I suppose this is the literary equivalent of a software developer writing an article "No, you probably can't program computers"


I think a better analogy would be an article along the lines of "Sorry, your good idea isn't necessarily a startup"


Right, but based on the article title and phrase that's repeated throughout the article, it would be called "You can't write a computer program", but the point of the article will be "your good idea isn't necessarily a startup."


I can't tell if you're asking for more or less curmudgeonry.


Neither. I was actually trying to make a joke to relate this to a typical HN article. I suppose it didn't come out right.




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