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Crypto for kids (sustrik.github.io)
194 points by arunc on Sept 5, 2017 | hide | past | favorite | 59 comments



I hate to be "that guy" but, I don't think this is really what people want their kids reading:

"SMUGGLER: Do you like booze?

CITIZEN: Sure I do. And who are you?

SMUGGLER: I'm the person who will sell you some booze.

CITIZEN: What about cigarettes?

SMUGGLERS: Sure thing. Cheap Ukrainian variety for $1 a pack. Also Slovenian Mariboro brand."


> I hate to be "that guy" but, I don't think this is really what people want their kids reading:

So don't be the that guy. Kids are a lot tougher than what the current helicopter parent trend would have you believe. Would you forbid your kids from reading something like Tintin too? There's no shortage of "glorification" of alcohol there - Captain Haddock's alcoholism is a recurring theme.


I grew up on the Tintin series – love it! Also Asterix. I mean, magic potion that gives you super human strength, to take out the Romans? Yeah.

Kids are smarter than we give them credit for. I think maybe we need to just give them the space to figure shit out on their own.


Another angle is: do you want your kid's first encounter with the idea of Ukraine or Slovenia to be a disparaging/pejorative stereotype?

Even if it was a real factual representation it might encourage the kid to pick up or repeat unhealthy attitudes. My (european) childhood experience was definitely like that at times, race being the major topic about which slurs were innocently propagated by kids who didn't know any better...


http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/i-am-very-real.html

>It is true that some of the characters speak coarsely. That is because people speak coarsely in real life. Especially soldiers and hardworking men speak coarsely, and even our most sheltered children know that. And we all know, too, that those words really don’t damage children much. They didn’t damage us when we were young. It was evil deeds and lying that hurt us.


> those words really don’t damage children much

Wait, who is this? Can they verify this claim? What does "much" mean anyway? Why damage children at all by choice?


Did you click on the linked source? It says it was written by Kurt Vonnegut, who is arguing that the value of accurately depicting reality to students is more important than protecting them from whatever imagined risk of reading harsh language there is.


The rest of the questions seem valid though.


They are, but they're equally valid the other way. Why start with the assumption that Puritan sensibilities are OK and require everything else to prove itself?


Because Vonnegut made an affirmative claim that this doesn't hurt children, and the comment was challenging that claim. I didn't notice anyone making a claim that it definitely does hurt children.


Evidence is hard to untangle from other social factors. It is relatively safe to say that people have in the past not been sheltered from rough language and did just fine in most every culture. Sheltering children started about Victorian times I suppose, later than children got removed from dreary factory work in the generalized Western culture. (And incidentally later all kinds of work.)

So no, the onus of evidence is on people claiming that rough language hurts children in some way. (Note we're not talking about abusive language here.)


It's ok to say "it doesn't appear to" but the onus of evidence is always on someone making a positive claim. It's safe to say that children have historically not been sheltered from many things that are today definitively known to cause harm, so the appeal to the past is not a strong one here.


The positive claim being that coarse language hurts children, yes. This is the positive asserion that needs proof.


Nobody has made that claim in this thread. The positive claim we are discussing is still Vonneguts quote.


Well, the thread started with :

> but, I don't think this is really what people want their kids reading […]

This is actually the initial claim, and the Vonneguts quote was a response to this claim.

Parents used not to care about what their children hear or read, until society told them it's bad parenting.


The question "Why damage children at all by choice?" rests on the implication that these things damage children, and avoiding them avoids damaging children.


I was quoting Kurt Vonnegut who affirmed it DOES damage children to some degree.

> don't damage children much


OK, but nothing in there implies that avoiding it guarantees no damage, or even less damage.


Are they? I have a deep seated feeling that this is a troll question: does the author himself really believe that coarse language hurts? Does anyone believe that when they stop and think about it?

Not every statement should require extended proofs. It's probably the case that you can't think of any children being hurt by coarse language, nor of having heard of any reporting of this. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence.


I apologize that Vonnegut wrote his letter at a time before the internet made defensive writers of us all.

https://pchiusano.github.io/2014-10-11/defensive-writing.htm...


I'm rereading the Harry Potter books, they get _dark_. Blood, death, and stabbing all happened in just what I read yesterday.


If you think Harry Potter is bad, let them read the Holy Bible cover to cover.


We were reading the uncensored version of Robinson Crusoe when were kids for giggles (fucking trees, fucking goats, lots of fucking things).

Or the George Sand letter: http://ciphermysteries.com/2010/05/16/george-sands-cryptogra...


The characters are supposed to grow along with the audience in the Harry Potter to my knowledge.


Nothing says healthy life for a 11 year old like living with your abusive aunt and uncle and having to fight the dark wizard that killed your parents.


That's when the books were released every other year, now that all the books are out you can probably read them in a few weeks.

I definitely grew up along the characters though :)


A lot of people don't want their kids reading Harry Potter


A lot of parents don't want kids going on the internet and looking at violence or porn, But it will definitely happen. May as well encourage positive things like literature. Also the Harry Potter series is full of themes around heroism, friendship, perseverance, and other qualities you'd wish your children have. I can't wait to reread the series for my kids.


Yeah and these people are insane and probably more toxic for their children than anything they're trying to ban. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_debates_over_the_Har...


The story doesn't condone nor endorse those things, so I see no problem. I don't see anything wrong with kids knowing there are bad things in this world - they're gonna discover it anyway sooner or later.


is the Road to adulthood a slow freeway on-ramp that you have from 0-18 to get up to 65 MPH, or at 18 age are you dropped in the fast lane with no experience going even close to 65?


Depends on which religion you grew up with. If you're fairly secular, it's gradual. If you're a Mormon, you get pushed out of a car doing 90.


^ exactly. And why do so many religious parents think that's going to work for their kid?


> Slovenian Mariboro

That is a clever reference.


Nice, I missed that one first time around too


Depends on how old the kids are. Are you necessarily assuming pre-teen?


Pre-teen is a pretty broad category. A normal twelve-year-old is in Grade 7.

That was the year I read Shōgun, which is basically your run-of-the-mill adult fiction novel. The content was never a concern, despite making the objections raised here look trivial in comparison.

Frankly, I'm not sure there's any age at which mere references to alcohol are age-inappropriate, but if there is, it must be quite young.


I don't think this guys is trying to win any PC competitions, just look at his profile image :P https://avatars1.githubusercontent.com/u/305718?v=4&s=400

But if i had kids i'd not blinding them with a PC view of the world.

Kids or not, these are fun little stories even for adult non-cryptographers.


And what does his profile photo have to do with being PC?


cmon he totally looks stoned. I'm not judging, i just find it amusing :P


Is smoking not PC now? 0_o


I'm not too sure about the PC status of the act of smoking, in isolation, but I would say that presenting yourself to kids as an educating figure who smokes is probably seen as less than PC to some.


what about being obese (for the sake of argument)?


Little different since one is an action, the other a state/symptom/result/outcome.

I guess there's an argument to be made against promoting/normalising activities that cause obesity, but I'd say current societal norms are set up to demonise smoking a lot more strongly.


its a double edged sword. teach good morals and this(encryption) also teaches you can not trust everyone.


People who want the younger set interested in this thing should check out The Manga Guide to Cryptography [1]. (Warning: Not yet published)

[1]. https://www.nostarch.com/mangacrypto


Written by the creator of ZeroMQ, for those who are unaware.


> Written by the creator of ZeroMQ, for those who are unaware.

How is this relevant? Why is it important to be aware of that fact?

Does this mean that the author is specifically well qualified for writing such a book? Does this imply he has deep knowledge about cryptography, or that he is trained to explain things suitable for children?

Maybe it's just me, but to me this sounds as strange as assuming that a good actor is automatically also a good politician.


Wow! It is just as good!


I'm inclined to believe that there is some secret message encoded in the string "1 13 20 32 54 78 99"...


I'm stymied about parable 99. The nomenclature implies that Mr. Xi knew the basics of encryption. No mention whether the decryption function was provided or previously agreed upon (e.g. "let's agree on GPG").

I think the decryption function or method is the key to answering the question. Am I missing something else?


There are encryption schemes which allow you to choose the key to produce any arbitrary decryption from a given ciphertext. For a trivial example, consider the one-time pad scheme that's simply "plaintext XOR key" and "ciphertext XOR key"; by choosing a key that's equal to "plaintext XOR ciphertext" you can construct a key for any ciphertext from a plaintext or any plaintext from a ciphertext. Mr. Xi uses this to produce the just-released lottery numbers from the ciphertext regardless of the numbers or the ciphertext.


yup! they should have used a commitment scheme instead - for example, SHA256(winning numbers || 512-bit nonce). To reveal, reveal the winning numbers and the nonce and Mr X can check that the hash matches. The nonce is to introduce more entropy so Mr X can't just bruteforce the hash, but since finding any collision is difficult, it doesn't let the alien cheat by trying different nonces (unlike with different keys with encryption schemes).


I understood it to be using a one time pad for encryption. At the start the "alien" would give an arbitrary sequence of numbers like "2, 4, 6", claiming it's an encrypted solution. Suppose the winning lottery numbers turn out to be "5, 5, 5". The alien then retrospectively generates a one time pad such that Initial Sequence + One Time Pad = Correct Sequence, in this case "3, 1, -1".


The scammer gave Mr. X the key, and once the winning lotto numbers were published, the scammer provided the ciphertext. I assumed an encryption scheme that was commutative, like the XOR operator (one-time pad).


The Cryptoclub: Using Mathematics to Make and Break Secret Codes: https://www.amazon.it/Cryptoclub-Using-Mathematics-Break-Sec...

My guess is that it would be a nice read for adults too.


That font is neat but not something I'd like to read for an extended period of time.


Agreed. Try installing Reader extension for your browser, they usually let you set a font, its size, foreground and background colors, margins, etc. to your liking.


yo damn kids and your composites primes and abelian groups, GET OFF MY LAWN




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