I feel very similarly, but then I'm of the mind that if I can't apt-get it, I'm not interested, and I'll bet that "open source" doesn't mean to MS what it means to the open source world.
As for the NIH syndrome, one of my favorite Paul Graham essays is still "What Languages Fix" (http://www.paulgraham.com/fix.html) particularly for C#: the problem that C# was invented to solve is that Microsoft doesn't control Java.
C# incidentally solved many other shortcomings with Java. The languages are getting closer to parity, but for many years C# was pretty far ahead (if you only consider language features and not tooling/ecosystem). Between reified generics, better native interop, and many functional features, C# felt and feels more concise than idiomatic Java. And I've written plenty of both.
Disclaimer: MSFT employee expressing personal views
Java seemed to have a lot more options for deployments and monitoring for a long time. More advanced 3rd party libraries in general. It had simply been around longer and thus had those tools available. Now that C# has been standard for a while almost all of those tools have a C# equivalent.
As a .NET dev I'd actually argue that the things available to C# now are actually better (especially Visual Studio), but that's certainly biased.
> ...things available to C# now are actually better (especially Visual Studio), but that's certainly biased.
You call Visual Studio good? Have you actually used it?
VS2015 is painfully slow, and yes, I've installed all of the updates and I have no plugins or such. Heck, even Eclipse feels zippy compared to it. Something as simple as finding next text search match takes about a second. Changing to a different source code tab is also sluggish.
Context sensitive search (right click identifier -> Find All References) is useless for anything that is even a bit generic. Instead of actually analyzing context, it seems to simply grep all reachable files for a text string. Including SDK headers...
I use VS2015 only for C++, maybe that can have something to do with it. Maybe it works better for C#?
I also dislike how I have to login to use an IDE. Once it cost me 30 minutes of working time, I couldn't login to a god damn IDE that had an expired license. That's a great way to make developers hate your product and ecosystem.
It is a lot better for C#. All the features work perfectly for .NET languages, but because of the nature of C++ it's a lot harder to get these kinds of things working well with it. Some answers about why are here: https://www.quora.com/Why-is-C++-intellisense-so-bad-in-Visu...
Eclipse can run better on a potato but it's also very simplistic. You should also be able to turn off most of the features you don't want in VS.
Well, heck even Emacs with some LLVM wrappers can do better job at C++ Intellisense than Visual Studio. Eclipse's CDT runs circles around it as well (so much for being very simplistic). And don't get me started on trying to use Intellisense on large codebases - such as Unreal Engine's source code. It is just completely unusable (30+ seconds before the completion pops up, often blocking your IDE (a total usability no-no) with a modal "Intellisense operation in progress ...").
Also anything using complex templates (= pretty much any C++ code these days) throws it for a loop - making it useless where it would be needed the most.
And don't even get me started at the ridiculous state of refactoring support for C++ - even the stupid identifier rename doesn't work reliably, and that is the only C++ refactoring feature VS has (and we had to wait until 2015 for it!).
Sorry, but that something is hard doesn't mean it can't be done - especially when there are free tools which can do it and orders of magnitude better. Even Visual Studio can do it - if you buy the Visual Assist plugin.
Even the C# tooling isn't that great - yes, it does work better (I often do combined C++/C# projects) than the C++ one, but that isn't a particularly high bar to clear. Ever tried the Java tooling in Eclipse? Heck, that editor and the various assist features almost write your code for you ...
Where Visual Studio is great is the additional tooling - integrated debugger and the various profiling functions. Eclipse can't really compete with that, even though most of the tools (gdb, gprof, etc.) exist and have a lot of features that even VS's debugger doesn't have (e.g. reverse debugging, record/replay, etc.). Sadly, the Eclipse front-end doesn't support all of them.
However, the Visual Studio's editor and the tooling associated with actually writing and managing code (i.e. the part a programmer spends most time in) is stuck straight in the late 90's - just look at how code navigation (jumping to functions, navigating between files, projects, etc.) works in the ancient Visual Studio 6 and 2015 - it is almost identical.
There is also zero integration for alternative build systems like CMake. That is important for writing cross-platform code or even just basic sanity on large projects - the Microsoft's build configuration/project/solution system with millions of settings buried in cluttered dialog boxes is just horrid and error prone, especially with their myriads of mutually incompatible options - set one option incorrectly on one library and your project starts to mysteriously crash. Good luck finding that - and then spending hours recompiling your project :( However, nothing else is really supported properly. (Yeah, I know that CMake generates VS solutions/projects, but there is no integration within VS for it - so you have to be careful how you add files, how you change build options, etc.)
The saddest thing is that many of these issues are pure usability problems where changing/correcting a stupid design decision made a long time ago would reduce the programmer's frustration by maybe 80% already - like the modal blocking Intellisense operation windows, the ergonomic disaster that are the build configuration dialogs, the decision to show compilation error with templates on the deepest template in the expansion (i.e. somewhere in the STL header) instead of where it has occurred in your code, forcing you to mentally parse several pages of error messages to find the line number or just resorting the Intellisense matches to show you the project-relevant ones first instead of the unrelated stuff from the frameworks/header files so that you don't have to dig through it. I.e. common sense stuff.
C++ isn't going anywhere on Windows, no matter what MS and C# advocates say and it is really sad that the official tooling is in such poor shape.
I could continue ranting about many other things that are regularly driving me up the wall at work (like the incredibly slow and memory hungry compiler, horrid and unreadable error messages, especially for templates, etc.), but that would be pointless. IDEs are a matter of strong preferences and opinions, but I do believe that with Visual Studio, especially their C++ tooling, Microsoft has missed the boat many moons ago. And isn't even trying to catch up as it seems - they rather focus on adding stuff like Node.js support (are any Node programmers using VS or even Windows??).
However it does piss me off when I see people uncritically praising VS as the best thing after sliced bread and flat out dismiss the alternatives without even looking at them - when VS is really terrible IDE.
Unfortunately, this is something that is difficult to comprehend for someone who has never seen how it actually could work properly - either because they have never been exposed to the alternatives or because they have the VS-centric "workflow" (more like kludges working around VS silliness) ingrained so deeply that anything else will perturb them.
"Something as simple as finding next text search match takes about a second."
I'm not sure how our configurations differ but on a fairly modern machine (say, surface pro 4 i5) I've not had visual studio 2015 slow down, and editing and searching is az zippy as with Vim for me.
I've had the experience that some third party tools have bogged down the experience, though.
I run it at work on Xeon with SSD and 16 GB. Project sizes might be different. I don't have experience how the performance would scale with a project with tens of millions of lines of code, for example. (seems to be fine for me below that).
It does exhibit strange behaviour (including becoming suddenly very tardy) that only goes away by deleting the local cache files (intellisense db and whatnot) so I'm not claiming it's technically perfect.
It is meaningless to make such comparisons unless you also compare codebase sizes. VS is perfectly zippy if you have a small project - but try to hit CTRL+SPACE to complete an Unreal Engine or OpenCV identifier! You will be sitting there for 30 seconds or longer while VS is busy parsing/searching files ...
There's a box you can tick that says no to all of that stuff, though I don't know if you can access it after the first run. (I never have to log in when I run Visual Studio.)
Meh, to make Visual Studio do IDE-like things, people install things like ReSharper, built by the same people that are building IntelliJ IDEA.
And I worked with both and IntelliJ is much smarter, and has support for way more technologies. And yes, it's built in Java and can be sluggish, but then again I'm using it on both Linux and OS X and runs just fine on Windows too, so it doesn't tie me to an OS I don't want.
Also, I keep mentioning this, but .NET lacks a build tool like Maven or something similar (SBT, Gradle, Leiningen). .NET is still at the level of Ant / Make and .NET devs don't realize what a huge difference that is.
This used to be true but VS2015 is actually completely fine without ReSharper. Roslyn is amazing, I've even built my own custom code analyzers (ie. compiler extensions) that integrate in to the entire ecosystem seamlessly (nuget package registers them to VS project, IDE shows you code analysis on the fly, C# compiler uses them on every build, including CI/build server - and you can enforce stuff with it - eg. raise build errors).
>but .NET lacks a build tool like Maven or something similar
There are .NET build tools, FAKE, CAKE, etc. etc. but people don't use them much, tooling integration is notably missing. It would be nice to have something like Gradle in .NET but VS support for msbuild is good enough for most.
FAKE and CAKE are not replacements for Maven, but for Ant/Make. Maven and Maven-like tools on the other hand are so much more.
Here's a personal anecdote. I work on Monix.io, which is a cross-compiled Scala library for the JVM and Javascript/Scala.js.
I could easily do that because of SBT, which is Scala's flavor of Maven. Basically Scala.js comes with SBT and Maven plugins. And you can easily configure your project, indicating which sources should be shared between the JVM and Scala.js and which sources are specific. And afterwards SBT takes care of compilation for multiple targets, building JAR files for both the JVM and Scala.js. And then you can also sign those packages and deploy them on Sonatype / Maven Central. The tests are also cross-compiled too and running whenever I do "sbt test", no tricks required or effort needed to do it. And this project has a lot of cross-compiled tests.
And if I were to work on a mixed JVM/Scala.js project, I could also include a whole assets pipeline in it, with the help of sbt-web, another SBT plugin. SBT and Maven have a lot of plugins available.
The Scala.js ecosystem relies on Maven / SBT for build and dependency management. There's no "npm install" for us, no Gulp vs Grunt cluster fucks, no artificial separation between "real Scala" and Scala.js, only what's required. And trust me, it's a much, much saner environment.
Compare with Fable. Compare with FunScript. Don't get me wrong, I think these projects are also brilliant. But it's because of the ecosystem that they'll never be popular, because the .NET ecosystem inhibits reusable F# cross-compiled libraries.
I got into their stuff via pycharm and phpstorm and then ended up using intellij with the php and python plugins (plus node and a bunch of others).
I haven't enjoyed using a development tool so much since back when Borland was good, intellij is pretty much 99% of my development tool usage at this point and that 1% is mostly nano for quick 'I need to edit this one line' edits.
The thing they seem to get so right is that intellij with say php plugin feels like phpstorm and with python plugin like pycharm at the same time, it's not the features so much as how they are all seamless integrated and the tool as a whole feels designed.
One of the few bills I genuinely don't mind paying each month, everything thing else I've tried just doesn't compare*
No, FAKE is not a replacement for Maven. As I said, .NET is left behind in the Ant/Make era.
And since you mentioned an F# project, the absence of a Maven-like build, dependency management and deployment tool is why F#'s Javascript compilers are behind, because you have no shared infrastructure, no cross-compiled libraries, etc, because it's just too painful to do it.
>Also, I keep mentioning this, but .NET lacks a build tool like Maven or something similar (SBT, Gradle, Leiningen).
You mean in terms of integration with Visual Studio? Because both Maven and Gradle can compile .NET code (msbuild or xbuild). Gradle doesn't natively support Nuget's format, but there are plugins for it.
> .NET is still at the level of Ant / Make and .NET devs don't realize what a huge difference that is.
You can reference projects or other files that are in submodules. What about the .NET build process makes vendoring the only option?
Even so, it's always been more convenient in my experience when something just ships with fixed versions of dependencies already inside it. Those versions are known to work with the codebase and there's no chance of new bugs or other incompatible behavior being introduced from updates to the dependencies.
> AFAIK, even NuGet doesn't allow you to just check in the dependency spec, rather than the contents of all of your dependencies.
I have a project where I only checked in the solution's repositories.config (packages/repositories.config) and the project's packages.config (ProjectName/packages.config), and it seems to work fine.
I'd have to agree, though I spend most of my time in the node space, today via VS Code (though I don't use the debugger at all). VS Proper with C# has felt better to work with than any Java tool/project I've ever used, though haven't done much with that ever. I jumped on the C# bandwagon in late 2001, early 2002 when it was still in development. Started moving over towards node around 5-6 years ago, and am currently looking for a reason to work with rust or go.
Most of my issues with C# have always, like Java, been about "Enterprise" frameworks, patters and practices implemented where they aren't needed, and complexity for complexity's sake. VS + C# is pretty damned nice, if you can work on a green project and not bring in everything under the sun.
VS was probably always a better coding and debugging environment. I've used VS as far back as VS 2010 and it's always been great for C#, but I've never had more than a mediocre experience writing Java in an IDE. Did anything support VS's level of convenient debugging ability for Java?
I have not used VS as much as I have used Java IDEs, but I'd say they are on par. VS shines in how well the debugger is integrated with the rest of the environment, but both NetBeans and IDEA offer very close to the same level of convenience. Admittedly, I have never liked the Eclipse debugger.
> As for the NIH syndrome, one of my favorite Paul Graham essays is still "What Languages Fix" (http://www.paulgraham.com/fix.html) particularly for C#: the problem that C# was invented to solve is that Microsoft doesn't control Java.
That's not what Graham said. He said, "C#: Java is controlled by Sun", which is quite a bit different from Microsoft not controlling Java.
Microsoft is fine with using and promoting languages they do not control. C++, for example.
The problem with Java from Microsoft's point of view was that Sun did not want people to use Java as a mere programming language. They saw Java as a platform, and wanted people to develop for that platform instead of developing for Windows, or Mac, or Linux, or whatever. Sun wanted all access from Java programs to the underlying facilities of the OS upon which a particular instance of the Java platform ran to go through the Java platform.
Microsoft wanted something with the good parts of the Java language without the baggage and restrictions of the Java platform, and so they made C#.
》I'll bet that "open source" doesn't mean to MS what it means to the open source world.
That doesn't make sense. ASP.Net, .Net Core, F# are all good examples of open source projects. This announcement promises the same for Powershell: Development with the community.
What are you missing? What's the criticism?
If you want to see a broken open source project, check out Android instead..
except that C# as a language is by leaps and bounds better than Java (both in syntax and useful features departments), so there have been other problems to solve, too.
Its ecosystem isn’t. C# will never get accepted as an open source product. It only has open source code, it’s not actually ‘open-source.’ Compare it with Typescript, which—despite originating from Microsoft—is a truly open project, and getting love left and right.
C# might be better than Java/JVM, but it’s not better enough. The culture/ecosystem barrier is so high that C# would have to be miles ahead, technically superior in every way, to overcome it. I do hate the “worse is better” adage, but there’s no mistaking it, it applies here.
It’s just too little, too late.
But Typescript is awesome, keep it up.
Ironically, Google’s competitor (Closure Compiler) has actually been unsuccessful for similar reasons. To this date its main repo is just a clone of the internal master. For whatever reason they’ve never attempted to rebase on open-source release.
So it's maintained in the open on GitHub, it's technically open source in terms of licensing. Yet you claim it's not really open source. Care to clarify?
It’s technically open-source, that’s the point. There’s more to open-source than license. Sorry but there’s no way for me to clarify without just repeating my original comment.
> It’s technically open-source, that’s the point. There’s more to open-source than license. Sorry but there’s no way for me to clarify without just repeating my original comment.
It's free software, and in that sense the license is the only thing that really matters. However, if you're discussing open collaboration styles then that's a whole different discussion. Either your project is free software or it isn't. Whether it has a diverse and open development community is a separate problem, and doesn't fall under "is this project [free software]".
Such as? You seem to have a mental model of things that make a project objectively open source, that don't include the license. I'd be curious what those things are.
I really don’t, it’s more of a feeling. With an open-source release like .NET it seems more like better documentation. In fact that was the case for early commercial Unixes—you needed the source code to actually use the system, but it wasn’t open-source.
Open-source as-documentation (for lack of better term) is still useful. It makes bug fixing a whole lot easier, for one thing. But it’s not quite the same as open-source ecosystem. For that you need to have a diverse set of actors, sharing the same goal. That’s what I think successful open-source project makes. You need to accept the fact that the project is not just yours. Something like that.
Of course Microsoft could do all those things. Who knows, it they’re determined enough they might turn it around. The problem here is like I said Java is just good enough. No one really cares, except people that could use some better documentation, that have been already invested in the ecosystem. That’s why open-sourcing is still valuable, but also why they’ll never gain any adoption of the kind they’d need.
Sorry if that sounds like rambling, it’s sort of late.
They might be open, but there’s democracy and then there’s democracy. See for example recent MSBuild incident (but don’t try to argue about it it’s just an example).
As I said, it’s a feeling. The feeling is it’s Microsoft’s project, everyone else is along for a ride. And that’s fine, but it’s something different. Let’s just not pretend technical merits drive adoption, that’s rarely true.
> They might be open, but there’s democracy and then there’s democracy. See for example recent MSBuild incident (but don’t try to argue about it it’s just an example).
> As I said, it’s a feeling. The feeling is it’s Microsoft’s project, everyone else is along for a ride. And that’s fine, but it’s something different. Let’s just not pretend technical merits drive adoption, that’s rarely true.
Uhm. So many free software projects work like that. A company creates something, releases it as free software. Yes, people contribute (and that's awesome by the way) but in general all of the engineering talent works at the company because they wrote it in the first place (and they hire contributors). At SUSE this is how YaST, zypper, spacewalk, et al development works (with significant contributions from the openSUSE community, but we have teams of people working on those projects so our contributions are more of a concentrated effort). There's nothing new or different about this model of free software development (Sun did the same thing with OpenSolaris and Joyent does the same thing with SmartOS). Yes, GNU and Linux follow the hobbyist model but that's not how all projects work.
i have a hard time with this argument. on one hand what you say is true: C# is a strictly smaller community than java. OTOH that's true of pretty much any language, and yet python, ruby, elixir, swift, golang, etc. communities are healthy and vibrant.
if what you really mean is 'java people won't switch to C# anyway', then i agree, but C# isn't a really a language for them. it's a language for people who don't like and/or aren't forced to use java by their employers.
People who aren’t forced to use Java will choose Scala or other JVM langs, like Kotlin, Ceylon (a favorite of mine) or even Clojure.
C# the language is not exactly that exciting. I get it, it looks attractive next to Java, but it’s still a verbose, corporate-first, sort of thing. If anything, F# is much more competitive. Too bad it’s on CLR.
This has already devolved into opinion territory but I don't think you're giving C# enough credit.
I picked up F# relatively early in it's lifetime (2006ish?), back then there were many language features in F# that you just couldn't do in C#. The gap closed a lot when C# got LINQ, generics, and lambda/first-class functions (these are relatively old language features by now).
If I want to write in an quasi-functional-programming language style I can do it without having the language get in my way. I certainly wouldn't call it a "verbose, corporate-first" language, although the fact that it can be used for that is a bonus.
Don’t forget Rx. Not exactly language feature, but certainly a great contribution to come out of C#/.NET. And who knows if it would have happened without LINQ.
I like the language. Just not enough to use it over JVM. And I think most people feel the same way.
The problem with native desktop Java applications that although Swing is quite powerful, it requires developers to go through books like "Filthy Rich Clients"[0] to really take advantage of it. Which very few do.
To this day I still meet developers that aren't aware how to change the default L&F to native widgets, for example.
Whereas Windows Forms and WPF already provide a much easier out of the box experience, and have tooling like Blend available.
I am curious what the JavaFX sessions at JavaONE will cover.
Sure, it beats Java, but the VM is worse for running other languages, and that's where .NET loses. F# tries to be nice, but reified generics are more of a limitation than help in that world.
In JVM land, now Java just hands you some specific well tested libraries: You write business code with Scala or Clojure, which I'd pick over C# by about as much as I'd pick C# over Java 7.
That said, I have far more faith in Microsoft improving their tooling than I have about Oracle doing the same: It's just that Oracle has to carry a far smaller weight, because the good JVM languages aren't even theirs.
Uhm, the CLR (hence the name) was specifically designed to host different languages that can interoperate with each other and unlike the JVM was not built around the capabilities and limitations of a single language.
> ... if I can't apt-get it, I'm not interested ...
I feel bad for you, then. The Ubuntu repos (and Debian) have almost nothing that is even remotely new and will usually be behind on most things. Trying to keep configs for an ArchLinux box and Ubuntu box synchronized is a bitch if new versions have good features, because you can't use them in your general config unless you give up on apt and install from source.
As for the NIH syndrome, one of my favorite Paul Graham essays is still "What Languages Fix" (http://www.paulgraham.com/fix.html) particularly for C#: the problem that C# was invented to solve is that Microsoft doesn't control Java.