One of my greatest problems is knowing what is right and wrong when courting for a mate. The rules are changing so rapidly that what I learned in sex-ed is outdated, and not even talking about what my parents could teach me.
The public discourse on sex is also mostly negative and discouraging. And this is what we meditate on a daily basis -- when you hear more about women feeling the need to wear, well weapons, when going out than you hear them wanting to be courted, well then I'd rather go and drink a bear and play some billiard with my mates.
I have recently started reading the works of John Gray (the one with Venus and Mars) and David Deida. Men that provide a somewhat coherent narrative and definitely provide material better to mediate on than the mass media.
Does anyone have some recommendation on literature supporting men courting women?
I have been studying the psychology of love, relationships, attraction, seduction, etc. since last summer. Something I've read over and over again is that that Stendhal's book "On Love" is one of the very few worth reading
It is easy only to talk in abstract terms. Don't be a dick -- what does it mean? Nobody knows, unless they do. Some well intended people ended up in very bad sitatuations while always thinking they were not dicks.
Most people familiar with the phrase “good Samaritan” or “going the extra mile” won’t demonstrate such behaviour.
Instead, although “nice” almost certainly has some culturally specific Shibboleths, I would say the basic test is where someone is on the selfish-empathetic scale, and further to empathic is a good thing in a partner.
> Treat them with respect, eye contact, don't make about sex and generally don't be a dick. Usually works in all social circumstances.
This is generally a great way to make friends. This is not how you court a partner. People will tell you about exceptional circumstances but they're just that - exceptional circumstances.
> This is generally a great way to make friends. This is not how you court a partner.
Evidence? Many friendships have a way of turning into relationships, because it's so easy to show off things to your friend that make you attractive and desirable as a partner. It even happens without people intending it!
All of the people I know were never friends before they got together. Friendship marriages and relationships exist but they’re exceptionally uncommon. Thus why I said they’re exceptional.
The stats back this up. You might be living in a world of survivorship/confirmation bias. You’re only acknowledging the ones that worked and not all the ones where the guy/gal never had any advances accepted. I know many women in my own personal life who seem to think no one was attracted to them until I ask them, “how many men asked you out?” They then realized there were plenty of men who were attracted to them - just none that they wanted…
> All of the people I know were never friends before they got together.
So they all got together/started to date as complete strangers? Even if they were loose acquaintances for some time, that's plenty enough for the whole "get to know each other" dynamic to get going. 'Dating culture' is an anomaly, people were never intended to court each other like that.
> So they all got together/started to date as complete strangers?
Yes or as loose acquaintances (they would never call each other friends or anything of the sort - just that they knew of their partner but that's about it). Not everyone was like random bumping into people off the street but almost all of them were not that far off from that.
I know dozens and dozens of relationships and none of them were friends before they got together. After all - they all needed to find each other physically attractive. If they didn't - it was never going to work. That is one thing that is remarkably common among all of them too - they all distinctly find their partner when they met them and now as physically attractive. There is no bridging that gap and no amount of "power of friendship" will fill that hole.
There's plenty of ways in a real-world context. No, friendship alone will not do it of course, but having the right attitude will. She really needs to find you intuitively compelling in a general sense, and this will be practically interchangeable with physical attractiveness in her mind. One reason I know this is that it works just fine the other way around. Many guys have experienced finding a woman very 'plain' and uninteresting, but then radically changing their mind about her after she got the chance. That woman has just become "attractive" to them in a very real sense, even though nothing physical about her has changed.
> No, friendship alone will not do it of course, but having the right attitude will.
This is very much "power of friendship" put into different wording. It's the same thing, man. Stop saying this is normal - it's by definition exceptional. I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm saying it's hella unlikely and no one should rely on that as a mechanism because it generally doesn't work.
Also - just to let you know - never tell a woman that you are dating/married/whatever that you didn't find her physically attractive. (ever) This is how I 100% know you don't know anything about women in the USA. That woman would be bawling her eyes out as soon as you said that shit. Unbelievable that you're acting as if you're the source of all information about how to date women. JFC. Are you that out of touch with how much most women in the USA are deeply ingrained with associating their natural beauty with their own worth? Are you even remotely aware of it? If you were - you'd know that if you ever told your significant other that you grew to find her attractive but you didn't find her attractive to begin with - you'd be broken up with on the spot. That's incredibly insensitive.
> ... Are you that out of touch with how much most women in the USA are deeply ingrained with associating their natural beauty with their own worth? ...
Just because you don't want to phrase things like that to anyone does not mean they don't happen to people. What you said is just more evidence that our culture/"folk" worldview conflates physical attractiveness and general relationship-worthiness; you're taking this conflation at face value, just in a slightly different context, and saying that it's thus impossible to work on being more valued in the context of a relationship. (After all, how many people really want to date someone they don't find physically attractive? That's why she's bawling her eyes out - you've just said to her face that you wouldn't have wanted to date her in the first place!) Which doesn't make all that much sense now, does it?
(I'm not saying that your attitude is not common. It is both very common and quite dysfunctional. Including, of course, for the women who are drawn into putting so much reliance on their physical attractiveness, and so little on everything else that could make them more appealing and desirable. This is, by the way, a common complaint from feminist(!)-leaning folks - it's neither some sort of secret nor something that has ever marked anyone as "out of touch".)
> ... and no one should rely on that as a mechanism ...
It's not like you've proposed any alternative in this thread. You've even said that some non-trivial fraction of guys are basically seen as undateable, so even a fairly low chance of success would still be better than that.
> She really needs to find you intuitively compelling in a general sense, and this will be practically interchangeable with physical attractiveness in her mind. One reason I know this is that it works just fine the other way around.
That of course assumes that men and women work the same in this respect. There are so many differences between the sexes, both biological / hormonal and social / expectations, that this is not a given. (Though yes, personally I'd guess we're rather similar. Just pointing out that it's not a given, at least not just because it works that way for men.)
I've been out of the game for so long that maybe I'm completely out of touch, but if I was to re-enter the market for some reason, I'd approach this more as a challenge to get to know people and make friends rather than a quick way to get to rub genitals together.
That would basically lead to ignoring anyone expecting to be courted, but I don't think I'd lose much in that.
To me the original comment came off as frustrated and possibly anxious about the "rules" of dating and I tried to respond to that. Maybe i missed the mark.
Why is seeking dating advice for men is frowned upon ?
Women do it all the time and quickly learn the intricacies of dating at a young age. Friendship and courtship are two different beasts and I bet women would like to be able to go on great dates with men who know have at least done a minimum of research in this area.
Sure, there are many snake oil dating "gurus" out there but I think many men could genuinely benefit from _some_ form of this.
> Women do it all the time and quickly learn the intricacies of dating at a young age. Friendship and courtship are two different beasts and I bet women would like to be able to go on great dates with men who know have at least done a minimum of research in this area.
Women also have those intricacies thrust upon them, and often at a young age.
Most of the reasonably attractive girls I've known, as friends or more than friends, have been getting creeped on since they were like 12. I can think of at least one girl who got pregnant in 8th grade.
For women it's more of a survival strategy, while for dudes it's more of a hunting strategy.
> Sure, there are many snake oil dating "gurus" out there but I think many men could genuinely benefit from _some_ form of this.
In theory I'm okay with this, dudes could use a lesson or two, but in practice as you said there are a lot of snake oil types, and the culture that comes with it is often toxic as fuck. I used to bartend in college and a lil bit after and I saw some shady behavior come out of what were clearly PUA bros. Plus I don't want any well spoken, put together, respectful competition.
Its doesn't have to completely be a challenge or game like that. Or, if it is, you will need to read an entire body of literature for each separate person you want to get to know. When it comes to romantic relationships, the difference between every single person is on a universal magnitude, there is no way you can generally prepare. There is not a ground to stand on with these things unfortunately, there is just the predilections and desires that were instilled in you as a child, and those of every other person in the world. We are all 10 billion air-gapped black boxes of desire. Don't try to hard, just listen and be patient.
It is definitely easy to go down the road of relativazation.
* On reading: For most people we need better role models than our parents. For sexuality this is probably even ore true.
* Every person is not so different. It would appear that sexual dreams are in variation of 10 different "universal" ones.
* Studying the underlying dynamics is not about trying hard, indeed it is the contrary. You probably don't even know why the comment "Don't try to hard, just listen and be patient." is merited? If you read you will ;)
You would probably be one of these people who find it natural to talk with women, court them, etc. Congratulations. It is like a heiress telling her poor friends not to study hard to get a job -- just get money from your parents!
Ha! Fair enough I guess. You're conceptions about people are pretty alien to me, but they are yours and I can only hope you find your way, fill the glass you were given in life.
All the books I have read could only demonstrate love, or try to articulate it, not outline a techne for it. I think in these matters music can be more instructive perhaps?
Either way, I still firmly believe that you cannot encounter each woman you meet as some token of the grand category "Woman," we are all just people, and our gender is defined by society, but love shouldn't be.
Remember with all things related to human passion and desire, the thing you should fear the most is actually getting what you want. The best you can hope for is to be surprised by people, to be understood by them, to be transformed by them.
In my last long-term relationship, in the first year I stopped using porn completely as I was completely satisfied with sex. As time went on sex with the same partner becomes less exciting, even if you love them. By year 3 I found sometimes I would not be excited enough for fulfilling sex (I'm a mid-30s man). What I found was that watching porn improved this a lot. It made me excited again, but I still ejaculated exclusively into my partner. It wasn't that I would think about porn during sex or anything either. It just caused me to see her in a different light somehow. But if I got carried away and ejaculated while watching porn it was over for at least 2-3 days. Completely dead sex drive. So yeah, I've come to agree that it's ejaculating while watching porn that is the real bad thing. Porn itself I think can be bad too, but for other reasons.
Well, this is only in the context of courtship, which is _inherently_ sexually polarizing. You most _definitely should not_ bring this view into the work place. In that case you are in your right to call is misogynistic.
And this comment is also a prime example of the derailment that leads to the vanilla meeting between the genders.
(I expect people to be able the read "masculine core" for men and "feminine core" for women)
> the added energy will definitely also make men more willing to do the hunt
Perhaps it is you with your interpretation that is misogynistic. The person was writing focusing on men, but both men and women are on the hunt for a compatible partner with which they could build a fulfilling relationship.
This feels like a rather uncharitable interpretation. Entering into in an exclusive relationship with someone means you have come out ahead of other potential "competitors" and are able to claim the reward: access to the elevated relationship with the said individual, and not necessarily the individual themselves.
Do you also take issue with the phrases like "How to win his heart" or "You need to win her over"?
These are all great advices, but very hard to act on. I got hired by one of the big silicon Valley consultencies with the promise of working in teams and great personal development. Had I been there an entire year, I would have worked completely on my own for 9 months. After voicing my concerns for several months I decided to leave.
I think you acted on the advice as best as you could. I mean, I'm guessing you asked about your work environment (or were told).
If there is a bait and switch, all you can do is voice your concerns and if you aren't heard, leave. Which you did. About the only other thing you can do is share your experience, either publicly or via your network (the latter of which I strongly encourage you to do).
There's definitely an asymmetry of power between employer and employee--everyone has at most 1-2 jobs but employers have many employees.
The public discourse on sex is also mostly negative and discouraging. And this is what we meditate on a daily basis -- when you hear more about women feeling the need to wear, well weapons, when going out than you hear them wanting to be courted, well then I'd rather go and drink a bear and play some billiard with my mates.
I have recently started reading the works of John Gray (the one with Venus and Mars) and David Deida. Men that provide a somewhat coherent narrative and definitely provide material better to mediate on than the mass media.
Does anyone have some recommendation on literature supporting men courting women?