> That type of discussion about banking practices & fees is totally above his pay grade. Likewise, I'd be called out as a social justice warrior to berate that software engineer on something he doesn't control.
Morals are not determined by pay grades. And anyone who uses "social justice warrior" as a pejorative is someone not worth listening to. If you act in fear of being called a name that says you care about social justice, you need to reconsider your world, for it is a rotten one and bad for you.
Be mindful of you, and expect others to be mindful of themselves, and hold yourself, and them, accountable for the choices they make. That's the only route--the only route--to a society worth living in. And yes, that does mean giving somebody a ration of shit for jobsworthing us into a worse world.
> Should the software engineer quit his job?
I have. I'd do it again. We are so very, very privileged in that money can be had more cheaply than self-respect. But so many of us, I think because we as a profession house so many people who are stunted in their ability to measure the world, act as if it were the reverse.
Please don't put words in my mouth to make you look ethical and make me look amoral. I said "banking fees" not "morals" are above his pay grade. Which bank allows software programmers to set banking fees? None.
>"social justice warrior" as a pejorative is someone not worth listening to. If you act in fear of being called a name that says you care about social justice,
No. The SJW pejorative[1] would actually say I don't care and I would deserve such an epithet. Lecturing someone about morals if I'm in no position to help them quit their job, is empty platitudes and theatrics. It's the theatrics (not the moral principles) that's called out as SJW and rightfully so. When a parent tells a child not to steal the candy from the store, that's not SJW. The parent has the power to buy the candy or find a substitute later at home.
Yes, we, to some extent as (anonymous) HN posters can all espouse the idea of holding people to a higher moral standard. Sure, in this thread, "someone losing their job" is just some abstract concept so I can definitely join the chorus and tell them to quit the job consequences be damned. Nobody here would know the difference.
However, I was talking about a real life situation where the COBOL programmer was directly in front of me. In that scenario, I will not lecture him. I hope others are not so crass to do it either (especially if the moral crusader is wearing tennis shoes made by exploited children but that's another discussion.) The programmer already feels bad about it. Lecturing him just depicts me as smug & superior and him as inferior.
>Be mindful of you, and expect others to be mindful of themselves, and hold yourself, and them, accountable for the choices they make.
I mostly agree with this. Where I disagree with the other posters is that I'm sympathetic to the all those programmers who are basically good people but are stuck in Dilbert cubicles writing code they really don't want to write. The programmers aren't happy about it but they don't have other opportunities. The list is endless...
The programmers writing dark patterns on LinkedIn, the correlation tracking on Facebook, the dynamic ticket pricing at airlines, etc.
I'm not talking about programmers writing Superfish, or ransom-ware that encrypts the harddrive unless the user pays into a bitcoin account. Those folks are evil and if they didn't have programming skill to write viruses, they'd find another outlet for their evil such as skimming casino accounts or falsifying company expense reports.
Not everybody gets to write software to send virtual "Get Well" cards to kids with cancer. There just aren't enough of those morally perfect jobs to go around.
I'm talking about the hundreds of thousands just getting through the day at the office. I'm actually shocked that more of us aren't sympathetic to the situation and see that not every programmer supporting business grey areas can just quit. And testimonials from a handful of HN posters proudly proclaiming they quit does not convince people. That shows a total lack of understanding in what type dialogue actually works. People need empathy and support, not righteousness.
It's not just programmers. It's the young lady selling overpriced cosmetics at the department store to the customers that don't need it. It's the minimum wage cashier at McDonald's constantly asking, "would you like extra supersize fries with that?" even though the customer in front her weighs 300 pounds and is one burger away from a heart attack. You think someone lecturing a low-level worker about selling fries is appropriate?
I believe in moral sermons backed up by support (financial, offering a home to say, etc) if the employee loses his job. Otherwise, it's empty platitudes.
> programmers writing dark patterns on LinkedIn, the correlation tracking on Facebook, the dynamic ticket pricing at airlines, etc.
are those jobs really dilbert cubicles? i really have negative sympathy for these people's essentially first world problems and a backlash against them is inevitable, and in my opinion welcome at this point.
Yes... that, or open office plans with Dilbert bosses. Direct your backlash at the corporate management, not the programmers. Many of the software engineers already feel bad and would like to do something else (start their own company, whatever.)
However, they have $50k-100k in college debt and avoiding the programming jobs that reprice airline tickets doesn't make that debt disappear.
really never considered linkedin or facebook as lower tier undesirable jobs. if somebody works there, they can pretty much work most places bar, google nasa etc.
it's not my backlash, i don't own it - therefore i won't be directing anything.
just because somebody got into debt to get education that isn't necessarily required to do a job - doesn't absolve them - or warrant any sympathy.
Morals are not determined by pay grades. And anyone who uses "social justice warrior" as a pejorative is someone not worth listening to. If you act in fear of being called a name that says you care about social justice, you need to reconsider your world, for it is a rotten one and bad for you.
Be mindful of you, and expect others to be mindful of themselves, and hold yourself, and them, accountable for the choices they make. That's the only route--the only route--to a society worth living in. And yes, that does mean giving somebody a ration of shit for jobsworthing us into a worse world.
> Should the software engineer quit his job?
I have. I'd do it again. We are so very, very privileged in that money can be had more cheaply than self-respect. But so many of us, I think because we as a profession house so many people who are stunted in their ability to measure the world, act as if it were the reverse.