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But it's just wrong to conflate these two things. Security of transport and authenticity of parties are two separate questions and should be treated as such. Particularly since conflating them essentially says "anonymous secure transport will not be possible".



Anonymous secure transport is fundamentally not possible. If you don't know who you're talking to, you may be talking to a MITM.

It's possible to have pseudonymous secure transport, if you identify sites with key-based pseudonymous identities rather than some form of authenticated identity, but you have to have some notion of identity or you don't have a secure transport at all.


That remains a silly claim no matter how many times it's repeated. All that is required for secure transport is a two key pairs. I need not have any idea who the other party is, but I can be certain that I have received exactly what that party transmitted and that no other party could read it in transit (remember, even the sender can't recover the original plaintext in this case if he's lost it).

It's pretty basic cryptographic theory and I'm not sure how such a fundamental misunderstanding became so widespread. A secure channel need not tell me anything about the probity of the other participant. (In basic terms, even if I'm being phished, there's an advantage in keeping some other criminal syndicate from also reading my information.)

"But you don't know with whom you are actually communicating to begin with!" you may say. Agreed, and not cared about. I'm communicating with someone. Step 1 is to make sure that whoever that person is, she and I share a secure communication channel that no other person can alter or intercept. At that point she and I can negotiate authenticity. Solve the simple problem first, and the harder problem becomes easier.


"Secure" against what threat model? If your threat model is a passive eavesdropper that simply reads the contents on the wire, but cannot actively change things or impersonate as another hostname, it will be secure.

While this attacker is too weak for most security use cases, it will cover many forms of passive mass surveillance by ISPs and governments, so it is quite valuable in that sense.


Guess it sucks when reality gets itself conflated. You cannot have "security of transport" (encryption?) without authentication.


Repeating that over and over does not make that true. Or have I just been imagining the existence of Tor, etc.?


Tor puts quite a lot of effort into authenticating part of the infrastructure, why do you think they do not? And Tor isn't providing a "secure" transport, they're trying to provide a "mixed" transport to hide you among others. If you were the only Tor user (or facing a big enough foe) and Tor did no authentication, then those random encryption hops could get hijacked easy enough since a fake directory could get published right to you, and you'd happily encrypt each hop with a MITM key.




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