Perhaps I'd take the comment a bit more seriously if you actually knew how to spell the name of the political party you're accusing and didn't create this account 1 hour ago just to reply to an article about Startups in Gaza that 'Hammas' triggered the latest events.

Again, the situation is far more complex. There is no evidence that Hamas leadership was aware of, much less called for the kidnapping. It appears it was a lone cell. It's tragic, no less, but not grounds to trigger a war against an organisation who wasn't aware or responsible, especially not if it leaves over a thousand civilians dead and entire neighborhoods destroyed as collateral damage. Similarly, when a Palestinian boy was brutally beaten, kidnapped and burned alive days after by people unaffiliated with the IDF, there were obviously no grounds for anyone to start a war against the IDF, especially not if it'd leave over a thousand civilians dead.

The aftermath of the kidnapping was important. On the phonecall that one of the kids made to report their kidnapping shots are heard, and that same day the bloody car is found in which the boys died. The Israeli government at that time knew the boys weren't alive, yet staged a campaign to round up members of a political party that they had no evidence to tie to the kidnapping. The kidnapping was used as a carte blanche under the pretense of a rescue operation, while it was obvious from the start there was sadly no rescuing to do. About 400 people were arrested, several houses were demolished and 10 Palestinians were killed in these raids.

Imagine if Hamas went into Israel and arrested 400 people of the Likud party, killing 10 and demolishing homes, after being accused of killing innocent children without any evidence tying them to these crimes. (of course, ignoring the ironic fact that it's well-documented that the IDF did kill roughly 500 Palestinian children this year, like the kids playing football on the beach this summer)

From there it escalated. Now let's look at the backdrop to this event. Hamas and Fatah sought to form a unity government, which was supported by virtually all of the planet including indeed the US, the UN and the EU, China, India, Russia etc. Israel was the only party who opposed it and immediately after announced building of 1500 houses in West Bank settlements, which may I remind you, are illegally occupied territory under international law, a fact that is again quite universally recognized by just about everyone except Israel. Again, imagine two political parties choosing to come together with the support of the entire world, one country opposing who promptly increases settlements in illegally occupied territories of the land governed by these two parties forming a unity government.

This is the context in which such tragic events happen. People don't kidnap others as an extracurricular activity, and so it's doubly myopic to say it were kidnappings happening purely in isolation that triggered this. If I occupy part of your house, control your doorsteps, your electricity, your water, your fridge, oppose your political self-determination and announce to occupy extra parts of your house, and you hit me, and I start a war with you, it's myopic to simply say 'you hitting me triggered this war'. It's simply more complex than that and it does nobody good to take all these shortcuts.

Obviously these settlements as a reaction to a political decision of two parties, and the subsequent raids, arrests, demolishing and killings of one of those parties, with the consequence of thousands of civilians dead, is the way of provocation and escalation, not diplomacy.

Again, it's all much more complex.

But it is also a political party that participated and won in elections. Whether elections were free or completely closed isn't relevant to basic terminology. Dictatorships have political parties, too. I'm assuming you also wouldn't have called Hezbollah a political party, or the NSDAP, or the CCP? Just because they do shitty things doesn't mean we can't use basic terminology to describe them.

I really respect you withholding comment on anything else for the sake of keeping things on topic. Kudos. I'll make sure to do the same.

The commenter spelled correctly in the GP of the comment where it was wrongly spelled. But you probably knew that...

I tried to not read the rest, so I would be tempted to discuss your claims.

(If Hamas organize quite independent cells, it is hard to not claim responsibility when those cells do what they usually do. Hamas really have a long history of making heroes out of people targeting civilians. You might also note that the ones that did a revenge murder will end up in jail. Then we might comment on the hypocrisy of first shooting (at civilians!) from civilian areas -- then blaming the other side when return fire kills civilians...)

I grew up in Israel during the 2nd intifada and watched the west bank empty itself of the majority of the moderate populace with anyone that could move elsewhere doing so. We are watching the same thing happen more slowly now with the Israeli public. First the moderate Israeli became a minority due to the 2nd intifada and then the more liberal have begun a mass exodus both due to the general environment of hate and ridiculous cost of living and work standards (of all OECD countries they work more hours per year than most [3]). The next 15 years is going to be a very interesting time for Israeli politics.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_confl... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_... 3: http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil...

About the examples:

- That airplane might have been different, if Russia didn't have nuclear weapons. Now the Russian economy will only be crushed, instead. (That France might get an exception through when they'd lose a lot of money is another thing. Which you probably know.)

- North Korea is being punished as much as is possible, since that seems to be the only way to get anywhere with evil juntas.

-------

On the subject...

So, you claim the rocket artillery and terror against Israel civilians would stop if the Israelis stopped trying to stop it? (How!? The last peace gestures from Israel were seen as weakness and resulted in many more attacks.)

Or do you think that it is OK to shoot artillery at Je... Israeli civilians... for a few decades?

    it is not a "human shield" if you shoot anyway. 
    It's just a dead body.
    https://twitter.com/Tolstoved/status/493177973810294784

    "Hamas imposed a curfew: anyone walking out in the street was shot. 
    That way people had to stay in their homes, even if they were about to get bombed. 
    Hamas held the whole Gazan population as a human shield." — K., graduate student

Another interesting thing to note is that according to the CIA World Factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/...) Gaza's age structure is:

   0-14 years: 43.2% (male 402,848/female 381,155)
   15-24 years: 20.6% (male 191,710/female 182,405)
   25-54 years: 30.1% (male 280,551/female 266,756)

http://gazadeaths.com/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/the-un-says-...

My point was you do not even have to trust the UN's estimate that nearly 75% were civilians. You can use logical deduction to come to a number of more than %50 when you consider the number of women and children killed in comparison to the total, any total you find.

Also, note the sex distribution: 671 dead men, 218 women.

And among older people, not of front line age, the sex distribution was much more even.

The media are planned more than the weapons in those conflicts. Note that the Israeli side have an interest in few Palestinian civilian dead, Hamas has the opposite interest...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28666562

Anyway, bye.

    The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank attributed the
    abductions to the Qawasameh clan which is notorious for
    acting against Hamas's policies and any attempts to reach
    an entente with Israel.
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/06/qawasmeh-clan-hebron-hamas-leadership-mahmoud-abbas.html

AGAIN: See my link. Hamas already admitted their cell were responsible.

It was big news in international media. I got the link from http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29323163 (I noted this, since it wasn't mentioned much at all in my local Swedish media.)

Now, bye.

Absolutely not, it's wrong and ought to be immediately stopped. It's a great question I'm glad you asked, because I fully understand that it's a genuine concern so we have to take it seriously and discuss it. We can't waive it away.

But let's be very clear here, these are the statistics for rocket attacks by Hamas. Please check the link, it's a very simple chart.

http://i.imgur.com/ntFYSsk.png

Israeli civilians died in the last 10 years from rocket attacks: 28 Palestinian children died in 1 month (July 2014): 329 Palestinian civilians who died in 1 month (July 2014): 1525

Just think about that for a second. Then look at Israeli traffic casualties per WEEK, it's five. Yes, five. Every week, more people die in traffic, than civilians died from Hamas rockets in all of 2014 including this summer's bloody conflict.

Just consider that for a moment. This is not a question of merely 'defense'. It's a question of, is it okay to kill hundreds of innocent children, to prevent an annual death toll from happening that barely rivals weekly traffic casualties, when I'm not willing to stop building illegal settlements and not willing to lift illegal blockades or occupations of another land that could achieve the same goals.

Now let me be clear, every single one of those 28 Israeli deaths the past 10 years was one too many. Every single one is a tragedy I wish hadn't happened. But in my opinion it in no way can excuse such disproportionate and grotesque murdering of innocent children on such a scale.

Especially not when Israel has not exhausted all of its options yet. Under international law no country has the right to defend itself against a force that is resisting a decades long illegal occupation (now de facto annexation) of its land. This 'right to defend itself' simply does not exist. Feel free to look up the legal standard that supports it, it's not there. Israel has a right to defend itself, and it can do so by withdrawing from occupied territories, lifting an illegal blockade and engaging in genuine peace talks in support of the right to self determination of the people of Palestine. But it has continuously disrupted such talks, which isn't my opinion, it's the opinion of the entire planet, indeed including the US this last time around, hell including president of Israel Peres stating Netanyahu deliberatedly destroyed the peace deal that had already been negotiated.

Again, if someone illegally occupies part of your house, controls your doors and windows (exit/entry by land, air and water), controls your fridge (the infamous 'Palestinian diet', controls your electricity and water and energy, and announces it will build more settlements, and walks away from peace treaties or sabotages them, this country has NO right to defend itself by international law. Once it reasonably exhausts its diplomatic options (namely the lifting of illegal blockades and occupations and negotations) it has the right to use force as a final measure. You may disagree with the law, but these are the basics facts of international law. These are not controversial facts.

Also, Israel's response resulted in more than 2000 dead. Proportional indeed.

@cyphunk claimed that Hamas did not start the recent conflict and accused Wired for 'narrow interpretation'. According to the FACTS, the recent round of violence in the Gaza strip was triggered by Hamas.

I don't understand.

It is my opinion that all of the parties were complicit in the escalation. It is also my opinion that Israel alone is guilty of heinous war crimes. But I had another point with my comment: The content of the article did not require placing any blame what-so-ever. At best the author placed blame as a means to give Wired's American readership the moral relief they were looking for, something that appears to be a prerequisite for any article or discussion on the PA/IL conflict within the US.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_confl... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_...

You might want to review this exchange and think again about who is contributing to the thread in a reasonable way that respects differing views.