The dominant industry here will always be Hollywood, where the price of failure can be literally devastating. If your startup fails in the Bay Area, it's not too hard to become a line engineer at another company. If your hedge fund fails in NYC, it's not too hard to get another job at another fund, PE firm, or commercial bank. In some cases, these "failures" are looked at as badges of honor, and likely gave you a lot of hands-on experience you can directly apply to your next job.

But if you fail in Hollywood, you're looking at however many years lost of your life, when you were making no appreciable money as a bartender or barista, with likely no applicable skills to any other industry. I found it amusing the OP described LA rent as affordable -- which by NYC or SF prices, it definitely is! -- yet LA also has the worst income/rent ratio of any city in the US, by far[0]. This is not due to rent being too high, but due to income being too low, because everyone here is broke while they're trying to write screenplays and go on auditions.

It's really hard to live here without having friends involved in the entertainment industry, so in other words, it's really hard not to see this up close. And even if your friends work on the production or post-production side, it's not much better. At least you have a steady salary, but you're probably also working for a huge megacorp studio that literally embodies every single Office Space cliche. Or you're working for a production or post-production vendor that has to jump through ridiculous hoops and work ridiculous hours to get business from said studios. And while that steady salary is nice, it's still not nearly enough if you want to ever actually do own property some day.

So, I wonder how much of that also tempers the goals and dreams for LA startup entrepreneurs. I know it's something I think about often.

[0] http://www.zillow.com/research/rent-affordability-2013q4-668...

That said, I don't think there's a failure stigma attached to startup life in LA the way there is to acting or writing. If you're pushing 35 as an actor and you haven't caught a big break, you're seen as damaged goods -- and you've got a resume with 10+ years of food service on it. Not a fantastic place to end up. But if you tried and failed at a startup or two, and you have marketable skills? Very different story. Fox, Disney, etc., will probably hire you. So will other startups. So will Activision or various other game companies, if you have the stomach for that lifestyle.

To your point, though, life at those big companies isn't much like life at Google or Facebook. That's because they aren't tech companies, and tech is a side business for them. In some companies, and in some divisions, life can downright suck. But some of those companies are making bigger commitments to tech, and life as an engineer at Disney (depending on the department) can be pretty solid and well compensated. But if doing a few years at a BigCo while you figure out your next move is "failure," it's a much softer and kinder failure than that which awaits Hollywood hopefuls who never quite make it.

On a semi-related note: the key to Hollywood is relationships. It's like DC in that regard. People who come to town with preexisting relationships have a significant advantage. People who don't will need to forge them somehow. While that's not trivial, it's not impossible.

As the tech scene grows and matures, so too will access to fellow tech workers, financiers, etc. One of the reasons I'm optimistic about LA is that its tech scene is starting to become self-sufficient, i.e., almost ready to become an independent ecosystem and industry, apart from entertainment or media. It'll always be to the LA tech scene's advantage to maintain ties there. But sooner or later, you'll be able to live and enjoy LA as an engineer without having to play the Hollywood game.

Aerospace in LA used to be a lot bigger than it is now. A lot of companies migrated out or downsized over the years, though to your point, some of the more exciting ones are still around. I'd certainly consider it a real possibility for anyone interested.

It's kind of a different world, though. You don't generally see a lot of crossover between aerospace and the startup scene in LA. That's not to say it can't happen, that it doesn't happen, or that more cross-pollination shouldn't happen. Just that a lot of the skills required in aerospace are domain-specialized. Great space to be in, however, if you want to specialize. A good friend of mine spent most of his career at JPL, worked on navigational software for the Mars rover missions, etc. He was coding at the assembly level for most of that time. Which is super cool for people who are interested, and perhaps less so for people who aren't. If one has inclinations in that area, it's a fascinating place to be.

I would echo the comments nearby that the LA tech scene is not all Hollywood. Sometimes Hollywood has a hard time seeing outside itself. To me, the universities have a significant presence in the tech scene here (Caltech, USC, ISI, UCLA, UCI).

I didn't mean to imply that the LA tech scene is "all Hollywood," but rather, that Hollywood and the LA tech scene overlap in many ways, and that Hollywood has a way of being near-unavoidable in the upper echelons of the LA business community. That's not to say it's totally unavoidable -- and for that matter, not to say it needs to be avoided -- but it's obviously very influential in the city. A lot of that influence stems from the fact that Hollywood is a major financial hub for new investment, be it in tech or in other domains. As I mentioned, that influence will wane in direct proportion to the degree that the startup scene in LA grows and develops its own financial ecosystem. (That's starting to happen, although, as the article mentions, it's by no means complete just yet.)

I didn't mean for my comment to be too focused on Hollywood, but in going back and rereading it, I can see how I gave that impression. In retrospect, I should have phrased it differently.

LA is incredibly diverse, despite people harping on about Hollywood. You can work in this town and never even care "the industry" is here. It becomes background noise. This is also why LA will never be defined by "Silicon Beach." People on the east side don't go west. (For good reason, I might add. Your life will be one hellish commute after another)

Hollywood is the #6 industry in LA by output. #1 is real estate.

In terms of employment, the government is the largest employer, followed by universities (UCLA/USC), medical (Cedars-Sinai/Kaiser) and then Fox (the #7 employer).

Really ? Is that the only state like that, and why is it so in California?

I've lived in LA for the past six years and I can't wait to get out.

Pollution. Traffic. Crowds. Urban sprawl. Celebrity culture. Crazy property prices. Earthquakes. You name it, we got it.

I'd normally be happy that the tech scene is booming, except for the fact that they are turning Santa Monica and its surrounding neighborhoods into another Silicon Valley, with all the problems associated with the latter. Hence the name "Silicon Beach," which was actually invented in the 80s to describe the San Diego area but is now used to describe Westside LA.

A friend's wife is a master seamstress. She did all the costumes Ender's Game with 3 other people (I bellieve). Being in the union means you get at least 1 gig a year. Another poster here talked about Hollywood being the dominant driver, and that is completely true. Many of the small engineering firms here (not Boeing, etc) are focused on cameras and other movie tech. Heck, most of the investment community here is in movies. Part of that driver means that the culture comes along with it. That means failure is not tolerated here.

My buddy just graduated UCLA dentistry. Its a 4 year program. He likes to study in coffee shops. He said when he first got to LA, the shop were half full of people trying to pitch a script or movie idea. Now? He said half the people here are CEOs of some sort.

Last year they had a mixer for Silicon Beach people at a bar in Santa Monica. I went, as I can at least code my way out of a paper bag, though not much more. Ok, chit chat, free beer, appetizers, etc. Then you realize that you and 2 other guys are the only engineers there. The other 50 people are all CEOs of some baby start-up or another, half with NDAs in the pockets. I talked to about 15 and not one of them knew to code, wanted me to work, and were looking to give out ~10% of the company for the work. No thanks.

Went to a thing for UCLA grads centered on start-ups. It was a panel discussion with UCLA alumni and then a meet and greet. Good cookies though. I asked the question: What is your work-life balance like. All laughed. One of the guys said his boss was a good example: 5-7am workout, 7-8am kids to school, 8-5pm work, 5-9pm play with kids, dinner, HW, 9-1am email, repeat. I pointed out that meant he slept 4 hours at that rate and, though he may be able to sustain this, it's statistically impossible other people can.

Buddy got an interview for a coding job around the corner from Snapchat. Nice loft, great looking secretaries, good free lunch, etc. Problem was, he couldn't figure out what they actually did as a business. He figured they were just looking for acqui-hire, something he was not interested in due to the stink of failure Hollywood fears.

Traffic sucks. I grow plants on the balcony. About every week I need to spritz them down from the exhaust ash that accumulates on the leaves. Not really about tech, I know, but still, I can see just how much of a car culture LA is on my carrots.

* We pay 12 for a nice little 2 bedroom. It's a steal. The westside is really going up in costs now. I talked to the apartment manager and she says when we move they'll rent for 17. The 2 new buildings going in cat-corner to us are 3k for their 1 bedrooms. LA may be cheap now, but the westside is going to SF levels soon. My lawyer friend in Los Feliz is going long on Compton. Rents are cheap there and it's 3 miles from the beach, just like the westside used to be and Venice is now. Hes got 3 units already.

I haven't seen this announced anywhere, but there's some building permits plastered on a window at the corner of Pico and Main indicating that Santa Monica is about to get a Twitter office.

There's an interesting cluster of Bitcoin businesses (GoCoin, ExpressCoin, others) with office space right over the Santa Monica Promenade and another Bitcoin exchange (CoinMrkt) in the neighborhood. It feels like things are ramping up around here.

I sent this thread to my Dad, and he observes that the West Side has always been much more expensive than the rest of L.A. since the 1970s, primarily because of the Watts riots. My parents left L.A. in the early 1990s, in part because of the (obscene) cost of real estate. And because of all the reasons the grandparent post mentions (plus crappy schools).

See also Matt Yglesias's The Rent Is Too Damn High: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0078XGJXO .

It's not only the Westside.

My girlfriend lived on the border of Hollywood and West Hollywood (La Brea area) and she used to pay around 1200 for her bachelor/studio room. Ever since last year, they would raise her rent by almost $100 every time she asked them for something (fix minor things).

In the end it became too expensive, and she was told her room would be going up to $1600 after she moved out.

Seriously?

I've lived in LA for almost three years. I hate this city. And it's so easy to hate that I don't even say it anymore.

Why would you buy or start a family in a place with polluted air, filthy dirty streets, contaminated parks, high crime, and, more importantly, really bad schools. And you can get all that whilst paying super high rent, as well.

My girlfriend actually used to like LA and then I think I complained so much she is starting not to like it. The funny thing is, she's a ballet dancer, so she's in the arts/entertainment business, so she says she would still put up with all of it if we weren't together.

Man, she's a lovely person, but I usually do not like a lot of people in the entertainment/Hollywood industry (actors/actress, artists, etc.).

Of course, things can be nicer here in Europe on some of those axes, but I imagine most people starting startups in LA are not really choosing between LA and Copenhagen as serious alternatives.

I'll probably end up moving back to Vancouver, but honestly, somewhere in the Pacific Northwest (Portland, Seattle) is fine by me. I am interested in technology as an aide to build better, stronger cities, though; more of a social impact.

LA is doing things to improve; e.g., improving transit, building smaller communities (i.e., building smaller towns with grocery stores, walking areas/parks, places for entertainment, etc. in a smaller radius), cleaning the air, etc.

But all of this takes a lot of time and money, especially in the States/California. Money the state of California is reticent to invest it seems like. I'm happy that LA is doing things to improve, but it's going at a snail's pace. I'm a runner and have had numerous lung infections because I was so determined to run outside, as I think running should be done. Not even the beach towns are worth it.

Plus, it doesn't help that I don't like beach/"Industry" culture here (sunbathing, suntanning, plastic surgery, charlatans, etc.). This is my personal beef, so I understand there's a lot of varying taste/subjectivity involved.

Luckily, there are major NA cities ready to hire developers (not just tech companies or startups).

People who drive in LA don't talk about distance to their destination, they talk about time.

I lived in Santa Monica and Malibu for 14 years. Left last year for family reasons. Wish I was back.

The easiest way to love LA is simple. Move here, sublet til you find a job, then move into an apartment < 10 minutes from your job. (Or, if that's not doable, try to move opposite the flow of traffic.)

Moving here, picking a place, and then finding out that you have a 90 minute commute is just a recipe for hatred.

As far as the people -- Yes. There are a lot of self-serving actors, actresses, directors, etc. But there are 9.9 million people in this town, which means that even if the people you are inclined to like are a minority, there are hundreds of thousands of them. And the neat thing is, when they find you (and you them), you'll appreciate each other even more.

It's really a shame that LA ended up so poorly designed; it's in such a beautiful setting and has one of the best climates in the world.

It's not that LA isn't a nuclear city, it's just that LA is 5 nuclear cities all within a (traffic free) 30 minute drive of one another. So the problem is when people want to live in one city and work in another.

There are more than enough (schools, companies,etc) within any one 'LA' to restrict your search to that and not be missing out on a golden opportunity.

As far as the friends thing, that's true too, but like another commenter pointed out, they start to become long distance friends, so you make it a point to go hang out with them, and you just end up socializing more with friends in your neighborhood, which is natural because when you go out, you meet people who live near you, more often than not.

Not only do I have friends in other neighborhoods but I have friends in other cities, states, and countries. Some I see more often than others. We're still friends.

If I want to go to an event across town I plan accordingly.

LA has good schools and bad schools just like any other city.

Talking to people from NYC, I frequently hear comments about how nice people in LA are. I think the gist of it is that people in 'the industry' have a serious need to network in order to find new work, since projects come and go. So unlike in NYC, where random strangers have nothing to offer you, here every burned bridge is potentially a career-killing blunder down the road.

“Silicon Valley has created the platforms. The maturation of the space is what you put on those platforms.”

When a space has matured, and some group of people are deploying content to that space, then those people are not technologists any more than those deploying content to radio, TV, or cinema are. There was a time when radio and TV were tech, too. Now they're just radio and TV. Similarly, mobile apps will soon just be mobile apps, and firms that work in this space will no longer be thought of as being involved in "tech".

*By definition, apps that involve considerable development of some fancy new technology still count as tech.

There is a big difference between people who create content for the mass media and those who design and develop mobile apps. Suggesting that what the latter do is not "tech" is condescension and snobbery, the same kind that machine code developers have had towards assembly developers, and C developers have had towards C++ developers, and Java developers have had towards web developers.

We're all standing on the shoulders of giants. Remember this, and it will keep you humble.

edit: drive-by downvoting is the best kind. :)

I wouldn't put it in the past tense! Engineers love snobbery,[1] it's one of our favorite things. But, as you say, it's rarely productive.

[1] See, e.g., any discussion of college majors on HN.

The error in both of your arguments is assuming it matters at all whether these are "tech" pursuits or not; whether the measure of a startup's value is on its technical foundation. It's quite the opposite.

The more holistic understanding you have of your market, the needs of your users, your core values, culture, and everything else—including the raw abilities of technology—the better product you'll be able to make.

In the end, this is not a tech boom, but a product development boom enabled by technology. We're in the artistic and humanistic bloom of a flower rooted in a new medium. As with radio, TV, and cinema, we are now able to do more than showcase technology: we are able to tell stories with technology that relates to our lives, and our lives to it.

The best will be and surely have been humanistic technologists—certainly not one or the other.

“LA is and always has been a city that creates mass-market products. We’re closer to culture than Silicon Valley, so we’re crushing it in social mobile. Web 2.0 might have been there. Web 3.0 is here.” -Mike Jones, CEO of Science

Our product is real and traditional technology innovation. It is not media/advertising/ecommerce. We have decided that if the support here is just too weak we're headed to SV. So far it looks like it might work to stay.

http://www.coloft.com

What kind of events do you go to. How do find them? Meetup.com?

It's unfortunate that Google moved. Their location in Santa Monica was great. I'm sure it was too small though. I think it will take a long time before the Venice and Santa Monica bubbles merge.

Meetup is pretty good, and just trying to connect with people as much as possible is very helpful. I'd often find a group just by talking to others.

while everywhere else you can get to know people by accident at coffee shops, supermarket lines, etc, that will never happen at LA.

that said, i still get 150k job offer for venice every week. so i have no idea what those people saying you will starve if your startup bust are talking about.

http://promenade.thursdaylunch.com

I've met many people at js.la, laruby, and events at General Assembly and CoLoft.

It depends on how you define "LA". Some people are referring to downtown LA, while others are referring to LA county (everything between Orange and Ventura County, including Santa Monica).

More and more I hear of prominent engineers moving out of the Bay Area (Steve Klabnik is the most recent that comes to mind). I think that in ~5 years, the perfect storm of municipal disfunction (aging and already shitty public transit, insane rent and minimal new construction, strong lack of diversity) will cause San Francisco to quickly become much less attractive for companies and employees.

Shots fired.

In LA, they call Hollywood simply "The Industry". A lot of people I met did get burned out by 30 because of pecking order that is the industry. You can work your butt off and never grow in your career, then you realize you're still renting with roommates at 30+. It can get tough. I saw a lot of friends just leave for cheaper housing and more conventional jobs.

Hollywood does abuse it's tech employees (and most of it's other employees). But even non actors have stars in their eyes and take the abuse to say they worked on XYZ movie. And so the cycle continues, lots of ambitious young people enter the Industry while the burnouts throw in the towel. And the employers get away with it.

Source: I'm a senior software architect at a very major Hollywood studio. Microsoft once offered me a nice salary, but the studio beat them by $20,000.

I love LA.

[citation needed]

Honestly this probably isn't terribly far off, but I have a very hard time believing Americans read less than half an hour a day (unless you're strictly counting non-digitized reading, which is a useless figure anyway because many people read all of their non-web content on e-readers now)

I googled around and couldn't find a source either.

I don't miss the scalding desert summers when I had a job way behind the Orange Curtain. But oh, to live near the beach and have beautiful sunny days in the middle of December.