Citations, or you are just promoting your opinion.
I'm also curious about the numbers showing that 55mph is the most efficient. I do not particularly dispute that this is the case for the majority of vehicles. I am curious as to whether or not this is as it has to be, or because that is the way vehicles are built in the US. That is, could you do better with different high speed gearing?
> Citations, or you are just promoting your opinion.
This is an inherently flawed statement. If you follow the citations in a scientific paper at some point, the citations are going to end. A scientific article that consist only of citated information doesn't bring anything new to the table, it only summarises.
I think most people, when requesting a citation in this context, would also be fine with a description of an experiment (preferably a repeatable one) and a record of the empirical result of that experiment. That's the "base case" you're talking about in the otherwise infinite regression of citations.
But this offered nothing other than some slight preference with a compelling argument that the differences in spending are more obvious. Yet, even in stating this, the conceit is held that "higher mpg is always better."
So, my citations desire would best be settled by any sort of empirical study showing that they actually affected buyers in the desired way.
It's not always the most efficient for every car, but there are lots of charts showing this tradeoff. Some cars are more efficient at 65 or 70 than 55 (97 Celica), but in modern gas cars, 40-50mph is where you hit a peak, and you start getting worse from there. 40mph on the highway is painfully slow though, so people generally pick an optimal point higher than that.
(One inconsistency I've found is how the Motor Trend test below sees a very high peak at about 40MPH and a decline after, while other sources show a flatter peak). And 55MPH seems more like a magic number the author picked, but not a bad one if we don't know the model.
Generally cars are geared so the engine begins entering its optimal / most efficient RPM range where it can produce more torque in top gear around 40-50mph, and rolling resistance and wind drag (which is a cube function of speed) contribute to make mileage worse after that. Usually the speed at which you first shift into top gear and cruise comfortably is close to optimal. Efficiency doesn't start dropping for a while because of the cubic nature of drag, and the engine sometimes is more efficient at higher RPMs for a bit (see nols' post on manufacturer optimization).
Fun fact: At top speed (254mph), a Bugatti Veyron will use its 26 gallon tank in 12 minutes.
As I stated in a sibling, this still boils down to "this is how current cars are built." I would imagine if you looked at the average vehicle built in, say, the 1940s, you would see a vastly different "optimal" number.
Which is all to say, do we expect this to stagnate forever at 55? Is this a hard physical limit? I understand drag gets higher there. Are there no tricks left to us?
And again, I fully concede that this is likely not the most pressing fact around. Just one I am curious on.
OK, now I understand where you're coming from. The physical limit is that at higher speed, we must expend more energy per unit of distance, to overcome drag (relatively little is lost in braking or rolling resistance of tires.) [1] So on any planet with an atmosphere you will have to contend with this.
The 'ideal' speed isn't really even 55MPH, but lower if you had all variables at play to get the maximum MPG at any speed (probably 30-40MPH), but manufacturers expect people to cruise on the highway faster so they adjust the gearing. If you're asking how to push out the curve so that going faster than 75MPH doesn't offer a huge loss of speed, lower drag coefficients are the trick. Or switching out of the 4-wheels-on-ground automobile.
In this generic diagram, the ratio of drag (air)/rolling (ground) resistance is 11-to-7. As you get to higher speeds, the ratio tips even more in favor of drag.
Fun fact: The Bugatti Veyron gets 2.15MPG at its top speed of 250MPH.
This was exactly the angle I was looking for. I am still not entirely satisfied with this, as it does not flat out state why better gearing couldn't achieve some increase.
That is, my naive understanding is aligned with what a sibling post said. That there is an "ideal" torque rating of my engine. Seems that if my cruising speed isn't stuck at that number, than some gearing changes could be made to put me there. Why does that not work? (Adding a 7th gear, for example, seems to be a natural idea.)
I'm curious to hear that the ideal speed would actually be below 55. Do you have good references on that?
Also, I'd assume the "switching out of the 4-wheels-on-ground" refers to such as trains and friends?
For an automobile, at cruising speed, the force of the drivetrain pushing the car forward, and the forces of drag and friction are balanced (If the net force is zero, the acceleration is zero).
In the engine and drivetrain, force per unit of fuel is dependent on velocity (this is probably a pretty complex dependency), but you can probably tune the system to have peak efficiency at whatever speed you want.
For aerodynamic drag, it's a function of the square of velocity. You can certainly work to lower the drag coefficients, but whatever the force is at 39 mph, at 55 mph it will be about double, and about 78 mph will be double that.
Realistically, it makes sense to put the peak of engine and drivetrain efficiency in the range people are going to be driving the most; so this is why many vehicles will be most efficient around the 55-70 range.
If you're willing to radically change behavior, you would likely have a much more efficient vehicle if you tuned for 40 mph, and people drove it at 40 mph. At lower speeds, other frictional forces become more significant as well, so maybe tuning for 5 mph isn't a great idea.
> That is, my naive understanding is aligned with what a sibling post said. That there is an "ideal" torque rating of my engine. Seems that if my cruising speed isn't stuck at that number, than some gearing changes could be made to put me there. Why does that not work? (Adding a 7th gear, for example, seems to be a natural idea.)
You could add more gears -- or you could just use a CVT.
Longer gearing will improve the high-end efficiency where it wasn't yet optimal - to help 90MPH you could target that with your super 7th gear at "ideal" torque/RPM. However the overwhelming aerodynamic drag means the peak efficiency won't shift to the right much, and it'll probably stay around 40-45mph (the power required is proportional to the cube of speed and 11x stronger at 90MPH than 40MPH) [4]. In many cases that super 7th gear wouldn't help 40mph (peak) at all if 5th/6th had already optimized 40mph.
I think the 55-70 range is pretty optimized on production cars today, including those with 5 or 6 speed transmissions - but you may be able to make more gains with longer gears/a CVT at speeds above that. In an earlier age of 3-4 speed autos (and sometimes a national 55mph limit), manufacturers had fewer gears to work with so a super long gear for 80MPH efficiency would trade off midrange efficiency and acceleration, and the EPA didn't test that anyway until 2006 w/ higher highway speeds
[4] My reference on the ~40MPH ideal speed (which I'm now more convinced about is the ideal for cars today) is the Motor Trend [1] test (all economy sedans peaked 35-40ish), several Hypermiler/car specific forums [2] and some personal cruise control tests with some rental/Zipcars with a digital gauge. Other ways to test include Scangauge/the Torque Android app. (The reason the ~40mph peak isn't even lower, is due to gas engines especially larger ones, being less efficient if they produce too little power - there is a minimum RPM at idle and always friction). So my earlier statement of "optimal peak would have been 30-40" - it's already around 40, and it doesn't have to achieved in top gear.
I put "ideal" in quotes earlier since the torque peak is one of many factors for the engine - the ideal cruise RPM is almost always lower due to less engine friction and lower pumping losses when you aren't asking for full power. If you ask for more power, your optimal RPM goes up closer to the torque peak. A generic motor from a friend's auto engineering class [3] (If you say had a Honda S2000 with a torque peak at 7500rpm, cruising there would kill your mileage)
Yeah, though by 4-wheels-on-ground I was mostly referring to flying/maglev type vehicles, or perhaps a vastly different design that had very little aerodynamic drag
Thanks for the comments and further reading. I see I should have also made clear I was never expecting anything in the upwards of 90mph range. The article was quite leveled at 55, though. Seems upping that to 60/65 should at least be possible.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean on "if 5th/6th had already optimized 40mph." Again, it may be my naive view, but I had thought each gear would have its own optimum. Or, were you just saying "top, be it 5th or 6th"?
I can definitely understand the wind resistance point. It really just comes down to my being somewhat incredulous that it is pinned at a mph point. Surely with better gearing, we have pulled the number up from where it was back when I had a 3 speed automatic? You seem to be implying otherwise.
Got it - I think you're asking why the peak is still so low at 40mph, and why we haven't shifted it toward 55, or 65. The reason there is a peak at all and we aren't most efficient at 5mph is due to (1) for gasoline cars, low efficiency at low loads - a motor may have a maximum of 200hp but only asking 10hp to power you means you'll pay a lot of frictional/throttling losses (at 10hp you'll be in the far bottom left in diagram [4]) (2) "fixed costs" per unit time - power steering, power brakes, alternator for electronics. Those two factors push us out to the right, whereas wind and rolling resistance push us to the left.
I'm not an automotive engineer so I don't understand the overall system equations, but I suspect for a given vehicle weight of ~3000lb, drag coefficient ~0.30, and 4-cylinder gasoline motor characteristic that provided sufficient passing acceleration, the "solved equation" for economy cars happens to end up in in the 35-45 optimal range. Gearing can't move the peak so much as make the decline less severe. (In my experience 4 speed autos generally had similar top gear ratios to 5 speed manuals of the time, but had other losses/at in-between speeds)
If you wanted to just shift the peak to the right, you could (1) equip an engine that is very large/extremely inefficient at low power outputs, and had higher parasitic losses and (2) reduce drag. Thus, it would make sense to drive faster, to move your motor out of the extreme bottom right in [4], and "spread out" those parasitic losses over a larger distance.
Adding more gears makes the slope go down less steeply after 40mph (but it's always going down consistently - see the Motor Trend article). The reason I used a 90mph example is I believe most 6 speed transmissions today already have 6th gear optimized for ~70mph cruising due to their motivation in post-2006 EPA testing. By optimized, that doesn't mean the optimal MPG in that gear occurs at 70mph, just that we've eliminated the gearing mismatches/inefficiencies compared to a CVT, which always has "perfect gear ratio". You could still add a 7th and find improvements at 80/90 probably.
So if 5th gear (in a 6-speed) had optimized 40mph, and 40mph is inherently more efficient, we would be driving there instead for overall peak MPG. I was trying to say that with enough gears, you don't need to be in top gear for optimal MPG due to drag. Hope that makes sense
I was actually asking why don't we keep the peak at 55 from dropping till later. I fully grant this is because I was ignorant of the lower peak at 40.
I should probably have added that most of my understanding in gearing comes from bicycles. I fully expect that my limited understanding there will not necessarily transfer. However, it has built up an intuition that gearing makes a huge difference. It is easy to get a sense that the other components of the equation have the final say, but it is impressive the difference going from a mountain to a road bike.
And again, thank you for the responses. I don't know as that I learned anything I can use in making decisions, but I do feel I have at least learned something.
Got it, hope that helped! I'd be very interested to see what the analysis is for a bike and what the optimal human efficiency is like.
In my experience riding road/hybrid bikes vs. mountain bikes, the lower resistance tires reduce the effort even if the gearing is similar. I'm also guessing the human leg has a narrower efficiency range in terms of RPM and power produced, so bikes usually have 15+ gears.
Now that I think about it, the 'simplest' way to explain the curve is - the vehicle/powertrain variables determine the efficiency curve with ideal gearing e.g. a CVT. If you have a 4 speed transmission, you choose 4 optimal points and imagine a steeper efficiency fall off in between each point (4 flattened parabolas with vertices at the optimal points).
The wikipedia article covers it decently.[1] And, the tires definitely have the most obvious effect at getting up to speed. However, I know that my top speed is higher on my road bike than it is on my mountain bike of similar tire size. I have mostly attributed that to the gearing. (Simply put, I am peddling as fast as I can on the mountain bike and going slower than a modest peddle on the road bike.)
Nit: aerodynamic drag force is modeled as quadratic (squared) with speed. The power required is force times velocity, which means the power is cubic with speed, but the force is only quadratic.
When taking into account wind resistance, the optimal speed for efficiency varies greatly with the current weather conditions too: with a tailwind, the optimal speed goes up, while the opposite is true with a headwind.
Usually the speed at which you first shift into top gear and cruise comfortably is close to optimal
Although automatic transmissions and lack of tachometers are probably responsible for this, I've noticed that a lot of drivers remaining at the upper RPM range for a certain gear while cruising, when they could've sped up 2-3MPH and upshifted. I don't know if there's a term for this, but it's certainly recognisable as a passenger: the engine is much louder than it should be, often with accompanied higher levels of vibration and discomfort.
Over the long term you expect the weather to average out and cancel itself out of the calculation. The question is does the headwind lower your efficiency more than the equivalent tailwind raise your efficiency?
Yes, in general getting 50/50 up+down hills, as tail+head winds decrease your total efficiency, as if you drive both directions (getting both the advantage and disadvantage), then you tend to drive the disadvantaged half slower (but not using less power, so no efficiency benefits from that) = it affects you longer = it has more effect on efficiency.
Generally the most efficient is highest gear-lowest RPM, and with car makers that's usually around 55-60. You could change the fuel efficiency to different speeds(I'm sure they're adapted to local markets with metric vs Imperial), but it would be worse off for most people to do that. It's not simply a gearing issue to change fuel efficiency, it's also the ECU controlling the fuel/air going into the engine. They aim for optimal fuel efficiency for normal driving, and that seems to be the sweet spot.
Contrary to what I've heard before, changing fuel efficiency to higher speeds wouldn't make things better. It's also not that simple because drag increases exponentially with speed.
This is still not any more satisfying than "because this is the way they are built."
Also, I should say that I realize this is a side show. One that I think should get less attention. No matter how much more efficient you make a car, I doubt I would ever be able to do better than local transit. (I, of course, welcome evidence otherwise.)
Right now local transit in the US is often less energy efficient per passenger-mile than a solo-driven Prius or Insight, or even the average-loaded (gasoline) passenger car. The numbers vary of course based on passenger load and route efficiency of course.
They are only rough estimates using existing vehicles, but engine losses are pretty constant, and if you take the 'power to wheels' group, wind resistance is always the largest factor (especially in the 'highway' cycle, which is sort the best one for your concern).
Choosing gears to make the engine most efficient at a higher speed will increase that contribution (without really changing any of the others much; I guess there are a bunch of critical points where the different fuel losses cross each other, and they aren't necessarily straight lines).
Cars are built for their purpose, designing cars to be super efficient at speeds they're never driven doesn't make any sense. The higher speed efficiency is a trade-off between all the varying speeds the cars are driven and the limitations of physics.
They could also produce extremely fuel efficient cars by ignoring the safety laws (even get around them by building trikes that don't have to abide by the laws) but they'd either not be allowed or never bought because they're impractical.
55mph is a sweet spot where the engine is operating close to peak efficiency and air resistance hasn't yet exploded. There very much are cars that are most efficient at 65, but that is because they sacrifice efficiency elsewhere.
Peak efficiency is the intersection of many curves- gearing, rpm, aerodynamics, speed... Aerodynamics is possibly the biggest factor though, hence the common point of 55
I'm also curious about the numbers showing that 55mph is the most efficient. I do not particularly dispute that this is the case for the majority of vehicles. I am curious as to whether or not this is as it has to be, or because that is the way vehicles are built in the US. That is, could you do better with different high speed gearing?