> What you're arguing for is essentially the difference between a shell script and a more complicated shell script
You seem to have a really shell-script-centric view of the world, as if the shell is somehow a fundamental and "pure" tool, and everything else is a more complicated version of a shell script.
What you are missing is that the shell is just another tool, and does an awful lot behind the scenes to achieve the functionality that appears "simple" to you. Bash is tens of thousands of lines of C and its manpage is hundreds of thousands of words. Using the shell is not "free", complexity-wise. The shell is a programming language, and not a particularly well-designed one at that. Shell script programming introduces its own peculiarities, and it is known not to scale in complexity very well.
> Your debugging argument is bonkers. You claim shell scripting is too hard
No, I claim that the shell is not a particularly simple tool. There is a difference.
I write JIT compilers for fun. I don't shy away from things that are hard. But my brain has only so much room for uninteresting and arbitrary facts. The very pecular way that conditionals work in the Bourne Shell is not something my brain can be bothered to remember.
> Did you even read the executive summary of the position paper?
You have edited out precisely the parts that contradict your position: "It replaces the venerable SysV init with a clean and efficient design [...] It is better than existing alternatives for all of Debian’s current use cases." Yes, the momentum of systemd was clearly a factor, but your claim that it is only but a popularity contest is not a conclusion that a dispassionate observer would reach.
Is it really so hard to remember these three forms of conditionals?
if ! grep foo /some/file ; then
run_something
fi
if [ $INTEGER -eq 0 ] ; then
run_something_else
fi
if [ "one" = "two" ] ; then
do_something
fi
Those are the only conditionals I ever use. I don't really use conditionals in any other way, and it's really not that complicated to see how they work. Sure, there are more complicated forms, and forms that other shells use (what you see above are fairly compatible, common forms of conditionals, except for the -eq). But if you go back to the original shells and how they did scripting, that should work for most if not all other shells today.
Also, those parts you quote don't contradict anything. It's saying systemd has a "better design", which means it is a shinier, fancier new toy to play with. But the paper never once points out any flaw in sysvinit. But that's obvious; Debian had been chugging along for over over two decades with sysvinit without any problems. If your argument is that suddenly, after 20 years, someone realized sysvinit was some horribly flawed design that needed to be replaced, and it just so happens that systemd came along right when they realized it, I don't buy it. What the paper does spell out, though, is all the advantages of systemd for things other than system init. Basically it says "Hey, we want all these new features, and we need systemd to replace init for it all to work, so please just go along with it because it's a much better design."
Here are some things that seem reasonable but don't work:
FOO=""
if [ $FOO = bar ] ; then
echo "equal!"
else
echo "not equal!"
fi
This errors out with:
test.sh: line 4: [: =: unary operator expected
This is because the shell is based on text substitution. So once it's replaced "$FOO" with nothing, it ceases to be an actual token, and the expansion of:
if [ = bar ] ; then
...is an error. This is terrible.
One solution you sometimes see to this is:
FOO=""
if [ x$FOO = xbar ] ; then
echo "equal!"
else
echo "not equal!"
fi
This handles the empty string and other simple strings, but once $FOO has any spaces or shell metacharacters in it, it will break also. This is also terrible.
> It's saying systemd has a "better design", which means it is a shinier, fancier new toy to play with.
You seem dismissive of new technology. If you want to keep using CVS while browsing the web with lynx and sending your email with pine, more power to you (after all, graphical web browsing is just a "new feature"). But the rest of us are moving on.
It's not new technology that bothers me. Me having to do more work bothers me. Systemd is going to make my job more difficult in terms of troubleshooting and maintenance - way more difficult than remembering that an operator requires two operands to evaluate.
What's really funny about systemd is I think that all its features have tons of value, and I would definitely use them. But I also think its creators are completely fucking batshit insane for making it mandatory to replace huge chunks of the operating system just to get those features. You should be able to just run systemd as a normal user process and still maintain the same level of functionality, but for some fucked up reason somebody thought it would be a great idea to make it a completely non-backwards-compatible non-portable operating system requirement. It's a stupendously bad idea, and the only reasoning anyone can come up with for why they designed it that way is "It's Advanced!" Of course, I should add the caveat that I don't care at all about boot times, and so people who are obsessed with short boot times will find systemd very refreshing, in the way an Apple user finds replacing their old iPhone with a new iPhone very refreshing.
You seem to have a really shell-script-centric view of the world, as if the shell is somehow a fundamental and "pure" tool, and everything else is a more complicated version of a shell script.
What you are missing is that the shell is just another tool, and does an awful lot behind the scenes to achieve the functionality that appears "simple" to you. Bash is tens of thousands of lines of C and its manpage is hundreds of thousands of words. Using the shell is not "free", complexity-wise. The shell is a programming language, and not a particularly well-designed one at that. Shell script programming introduces its own peculiarities, and it is known not to scale in complexity very well.
> Your debugging argument is bonkers. You claim shell scripting is too hard
No, I claim that the shell is not a particularly simple tool. There is a difference.
I write JIT compilers for fun. I don't shy away from things that are hard. But my brain has only so much room for uninteresting and arbitrary facts. The very pecular way that conditionals work in the Bourne Shell is not something my brain can be bothered to remember.
> Did you even read the executive summary of the position paper?
You have edited out precisely the parts that contradict your position: "It replaces the venerable SysV init with a clean and efficient design [...] It is better than existing alternatives for all of Debian’s current use cases." Yes, the momentum of systemd was clearly a factor, but your claim that it is only but a popularity contest is not a conclusion that a dispassionate observer would reach.