Man when I was that age, my only concern in the world was trading Pokemon cards after school. I wouldn't have given up that carefree experience for the world.
I don't know how I feel when I read about things like this.
It starts off as jealousy that the kids started their "career" at such a young age, then respect towards them for the same reason, but then I feel sad because at the end of the day I feel like they're being robbed of a childhood in some ways.
Then I go back and read, and it seems like the kid had a lot of fun, and maybe I'm the one who's lacking perspective.
I don't know. I think it's great at the end of the day. Obviously smart kid, and he'll go places, but I just don't want him to miss out on the more lighthearted times in his life.
> I wouldn't have given up that carefree experience for the world.
How do people get that feeling? I don't remember being carefree ever in my life. I can imagine being carefree but I also can imagine taking a walk on the surface of Mercury. Childhood is such a crappy time filled with school, illness taking forever, boredom taking forever, being tired, hurt and in pain. Each time I finished some school I felt awesome because I knew I won't have to deal with that crap and those teachers anymore. Best thing about school is that when holidays come you can forget all you learned last year. No-one will ever examine you on that. I remember growing up as progressing freedom to not do the stuff I don't want to do. Life was definitely easier as it went.
The joy I remember from childhood was reading books about physics and chemistry and running experiments in my head. I'd be delighted if someone gave me internship in some lab where I could help with actually performing them.
Interesting perspective. I had the luck, in hindsight, to have ridiculous amounts of freedom until the age of 16. I was homeschooled with my brothers (and eventually two close friends of the same age) and a fresh-out-of-teacher-school 'teacher' who wasn't very good, but was our friend. We had school at her apartment and then all had lunch at my house.
Then from age 13 on I was allowed to work at home, where I would usually either skip my homework or use the answer booklet to do it quickly. On a given day, I would spend at most four hours on 'school' and then do whatever I wanted. At first I probably abused this freedom, which led to boredom. So very soon, I started reading every book I could get my hand on, learned some programming and spend most of my early afternoons to evenings playing with kids in the neighbourhood.
Then at the age of sixteen I returned to 'normal' life and had massive difficulties adjusting to the regular school system, but I made it through and went on the university.
Experiences such as yours solidify my view that the school system we all grow up with is flawed. It teaches us that learning isn't fun, and makes us do silly things and jump through pointless hoops.
To be fair, school has to deal with all sorts of kids. If others had been given my freedom they might not have gravitated towards learning, and failed horribly upon returning to regular life. But I'm sure there are many like me, and I hate the thought that they had to put up with the kind of stuff you describe.
...I realize I kind of sound like a dick there. Good on you for the internship and all, but if you think of it as work you're gonna burn yourself out.
Ah who am I kidding you're not gonna listen to any of this, lol. You'll figure it out on your own, I guess, and then take a 4 year break from programming, partying and doing a lot of drugs. And then come back to it after realizing that you liked programming the whole time.
..or you'll just burn out. Or you might get hit by a truck or something.
Not really. My story is kind of unrelated to that little anecdote.
I started coding at like, 12. It was mostly fun little "side" projects like game addons and personal websites. I was praised amongst my friends as the "programmer genius" and I built a reputation online.
Eventually I ended up landing myself a web programming job when I turned 16, ended up hating it. Got another internship offer at 17 at a legit web search company. I hated that too.
I eventually decided I hated programming and stopped going to the search company (eventually got laid off for truancy). I spent my senior year of HS and freshman year of college partying a lot getting bad grades with no real direction.
Ok i recently realized that i had started game development at a VERY young age. Apparently i was 8 or 9 back then. Me and cousin of the same age, worked on Macromedia Flash. I am not saying we built the most amazing games back then, but it was a start. Sure I had briefcase full of pokemon cards (which i took to trade meetings) but that doesn't mean I didnt have time for game dev. I dont know about OP but for us it was never a "career" thing. It was "play". We had fun making that stuff. Amongst all the other fun things we used to do, game dev was just another one of em =)
The world has changed so much since then. I am only 22 so I think we are pretty much the same age. Kids don't even watch cartoon now. They play games on ipad and make vine videos...
There's also a lack of cartoons to even attempt to watch outside of the Cartoon Network. Parents were worried about their kids watching too much cartoons, but seem to mostly turn a blind eye to overusing tablets, phones and PCs.
Well, it's just patently false. It may be the case in the mind of some in the echo chamber ... but as I seem to almost regularly need to remind on HN ... there is a whole world outside the party line view of what the world is like ... namely, what the world is really like. :)
Like I said, I agree with his conclusion that lots of kids still watch cartoons, just pointing out that his knowing a few kids who do isn't proof of this.
To put it into HN cliché phrasing: the plural of anecdote is not data, even if the anecdote matches the data.
I totally think you guys are right about me not having proof either. I think we both can say some people do and some don't, but a lot more younger children are spending time doing things that we once didn't do for those who grew up in the late 80s and 90s - people who grew like from this period of time should had a reasonable access to a machine - be it PC, gameboy or PS1.
I hear you. But I think its good overall. However, I think it would be nice if the kid was introduced to coding and was coding for fun and not thinking of YC or as michalochurch like's to say "VCistan." I think its good to start from a passion for technology devoid of the echo chamber politics. But he seems like he has a good head on his shoulders ... I would agree though, add more fun and less startup, at least for a few years.
When I was 13 (2005) I would have LOVED to do something like this. I tried to reach out for some experience but all that got me was a job making a website for a local charity (wildlife sanctuary society). I think I was 12 at that time. I already was making my own things but that drove me even further to run projects that I could call my own.
I had an engineering internship when I was 14. Definitely missed out on whatever kids my age were doing that summer, but I was too much of a nerd to even have wanted to do anything else. I think it worked out for the better, and I hope it does for Shalin too.
To Shalin: Kill those SAT's and get into the school of your dreams. It is absolutely worth it.
I'm currently 17 and have done internships for both of the previous summers. Although getting experience was both edifying and fun, there was still a huge opportunity cost. I would have preferred to spend a bit more of my summer indulging my personal interests. Although it was certainly a great experience, I'm unsure about whether or not I'll look back in ten years and wish that I had taken advantage of my summers.
As for the second point, I'm not sure whether internships really create an appreciable advantage at elite schools. Based on anecdotal evidence and some cursory research, I would posit that most qualified applicants to elite schools will have one if not two internships for major organizations. Many will have done academic research. I know a guy who is attempting to get his research on binary star systems published (his first choice is MIT). Careers start early.
Internships are definitely desirable things to have, I don't think that they differentiate students. If anything, they are a prerequisite. Trying to get into college is hard. From what I've experienced, I'm not sure if enslaving oneself to the cult of standardized tests is worth it. The OP seems to have a fair idea of what he wants to do, and has a non-trivial amount of ability. He should think critically about whether or not college is worth it.
I would definitely not endorse the long, arduous process of maximizing attractiveness to colleges during one's high school career in the unequivocal way that you did. One's career aspirations and expectations are highly personal things.
Having gone through the college admissions process, you are sort of correct and sort of wrong that internships don't differentiate students. Having good internships, can, combined with other factors, put you over the top in getting admitted to elite schools. That being said, having good internships does not in of itself get you into elite schools. The only things that in of themselves can get you into elite schools are serious accomplishments - published a research paper, placed highly in a prestigious science fair, started a legitimate charitable organization, placed highly in some other competitive activity, etc.
> I'm unsure about whether or not I'll look back in ten years and wish that I had taken advantage of my summers.
The grass is always greener on the other side. Most high school and college students who did not do internships/research over their summers regret not doing something more productive/useful during their HS summers.
There are a variety of reasons to go to college, not all of which deal with academics and vocation. The social aspect is not to be underestimated.
At the time it was mostly just fun for me, sounds like the situation is the same for him. I think it's a balance, you want to pursue your interests to the point where they show your ability, but also deal with enough of the BS required to get into good schools (like studying for the SATs or getting good grades in HS classes).
College is a great idea because it's entirely possible his interests will change in school (I almost switched majors like 3 times) and for everything other than programming, college is still a prerequisite.
Edit: Oh when I was 17 I also thought applicants were super prepared and it was intimidating. In reality most kids at elite schools didn't have a scary level of preparation, and a lot of those kids with perfect resumes never got in. Admissions are still a mystery to me.
enslaving oneself to the cult of standardized tests is worth it
It sounds like you are describing enslaving oneself to the cult of elite schools. Standardized tests are just one stepping stone. Standardized tests are a much smaller issue if your focus is on amazing achievements in the real world rather than the amazing achievement of getting in to a luxury-brand school.
The parent referred specifically to "the school of your dreams," which implys elite schools. The situation is obviously different for schools outside of the top 25.
I was thinking on the same page as you but realized, if I had been introduced the concept of programming and picking up a project to do at that age I would've done it. I mean, I didn't miss out too much since I started programming when I was 14, but I can't imagine that I wouldn't have had as much interest at the age of 12 as I did when I was 14. I guess it all just matters what kind of environment you are surrounded in at those ages.
Please, go outside, play and run around. Learn to skate, get a boyfriend/girlfriend. There will be so much opportunity for work later on in life. Definitely spend time coding if that's what you love but don't make it your everything. Develop other aspects of your personality/intelligence/body equally. Best wishes!
As a 19 year old software engineer who started writing code when he was 13 because it was fun, I don't think this quite hits the mark.
I didn't give up everything in life to be a programmer, but it was my passion (and it looks like it's this guy's passion as well). It is fun. I still played outside, had friends, and lived a childhood. What I got out of it are skills that are in demand, a head start on life, and adult, mature friends who kept me out of trouble and helped me build a fun, happy life for myself.
I owe everything to programming. I was a kid from a small town in Alabama and now I'm a happy software engineer in Los Angeles. I got to go to the first Clojure Conj conference when I was 16, speak at the second at 17, and get an internship that led to a job at around the same time. I met the best friends I could have ever met through it and have had more fun that I could have ever imagined having as a direct result of it.
That said, we're not entirely at odds. It is important to keep yourself healthy and such and not let it completely take over your life. I just felt it important to provide a different perspective on the matter.
Different perspectives are definitely useful and thanks for taking the time to share yours. It sounds like you have figured out the priorities in your life and have balanced things out. That's really all I was advocating for, balance.
Similarly I started programming very young. You do need to pursue other interests to be well rounded, though. But hey, not everyone is well rounded. However, I will say I think there is a difference if you are doing it because it is fun or you are feeding a thirst for knowledge vs you are trying to become the next Zuckerberg. There's a place for that, sure, but 13? I'm not saying this person is doing this, just remarking generally.
During my internship, I ran almost every single day and I love do other activities besides coding... I agree with you that I shouldn't make coding my everything, I still love to do it when I have free time.
It's great you're exercising daily, aim to make it part of your daily routine, it'll pay off very well in the future.
When I was your age I had days and even weeks during my summer breaks when I would get bored out of my mind. Believe it or not there's some benefit in that. It allowed me to find new ways to entertain myself and definitely boosted/developed my creativity. Try to get bored every once in a while, it feels nice :)
> There will be so much opportunity for work later on in life
Absolutely. But the best programmers are the ones who never wanted to do it for the money anyhow (and got into it simply because it's interesting and enjoyable).
Moderation is key to everything. However...
You can have it all. Being passionate about something breathes life into all aspects of you and the people around you. It's a lot more fun to be talking to a date or a friend at a party who spends his/her time doing something passionately (even obsessively) than someone with no direction and moderate/little dedication. Some personalities are prone to doing things to excess. You see it with athletes, musicians, programmers, and others. Not that all people in those fields are like that, but it's better than devoting your energies to something objectively unhealthy, such as drinking or watching TV.
That said, do remember to eat well and sleep. And see the sun once in a while, and talk to people. Then get back to your hobby/passion/etc as time permits.
Usually, I agree entirely with this state of mind. There's a definite trend of trying to get kids involved in programming at as young an age as possible, especially by those who have kids of their own. Sometimes, I often get the feeling that the kid might not actually care too much for programming, but are being forced to sit through their parents hobby because "it's fun".
However, I used to write code for fun when I was a kid. I still went out with friends, played football, got girlfriends, and did all the usual rebellious teen stuff. However, my downtime (between gaming, watching TV, and other stuff) was spent writing websites and scripts. By thirteen, I was running a fairly sizable web forum, and had written a few addons for vBulletin (albeit, fairly crappy ones). I would have LOVED to work in a real company, working with real developers, and having the chance to work with people that will tell me exactly where I'm going wrong.
I've worked in a few offices where we've had some work experience kids come in, and some that have worked as a part of an apprenticeship. They love working in a real office, and even harsh employers make it as fun as possible.
This kid is living his dream and having a great time. There's no rule that says he has to want any of those things. We should all support him for being who he wants to be.
My parents said similar things to me, and I grew to resent them for it.
It's amazing that the culture can be so different. Going to college in a European country, I never did an internship. I barely even worked summer jobs, I did maybe one summer's worth of work spread out over a few years, just to get some money. Even college summers were spent LANing with friends, fishing, watching movies, swimming, traveling, reading, some recreational coding etc. Just enjoying the summer, not worrying about my future career. It was great. Honestly, even though I could've spent my summers doing internships, I think it would have been rather pointless. I was already working 110% during the school year and still learning basic math, science and related theory. Whatever work I would've put in would have been sub-par. And that time was great to unwind.
Imagine my astonishment when I first came to the US and kids in the first and second year of college were doing internships at Google, Amazon and Microsoft. Good on them I suppose, especially getting paid well to do it, but I can't see how it helps much. Seems mostly like a way for Google et al to fish for young talent before they graduate.
Anyway, being as excited about coding as this kid is, maybe this is the best way for him to use his time, but the culture difference is just amusing to me.
>even though I could've spent my summers doing internships, I think it would have been rather pointless.
>I can't see how it helps much. Seems mostly like a way for Google et al to fish for young talent before they graduate.
There is tremendous value in summer internships. You get to "test out" companies to work for after graduation. You get to learn a ton about actually using technologies in production and/or at scale. You get to learn from engineers who have years of industry experience. You get to work on technologies you would otherwise never work with (e.g. big data) by yourself. By the time you graduate, you will already have 9 months work experience, rather than 0, which makes starting a startup a more feasible option than before. I'm a little bewildered as to why you (or the culture in Europe?) find these internships pointless.
If what you say about the culture in Europe is true, I find this to actually be a competitive advantage for students/companies in the US.
This is a sweet experience, but I think it's more accurately described as 'programming camp'. A company that has a business of teaching kids to program games advertised for some kids to come in during the summer and be taught to program games as guinea pigs. Of course, I can see why the company and the kids involved would all be more excited to describe it as an internship, but that doesn't mean everyone needs to let them get away with redefining the word.
Also, a good internship will look much better on a college app than a few extra points.
Sadly, nope, unless you're applying to a high-end private school. I know the UC system doesn't care at all about your work experience, and even if you founded a company when you were in HS, that would at best be worth 150-300 SAT points.
Now that I think about it, it's scary that I still remember this.
Completely disagree. I too went through the college admissions process.
Yes, public schools care more about standardized numbers (SAT/GPA), but you don't need a very high SAT score (in strictly relative terms to private schools) to get into a top public school, even the top UCs.
Put it this way: An elite public school might weight SATs 40%, but the median SAT will only be 2000 anyway.
Whereas an elite private might have a median of 2150 with a weighting of 20%.
The fact is that public schools will give more weight to SATs, but the threshold for what above average for admission is already lower.
As someone who's had a reasonable amount of success with the SAT (a 2360 in the October 2009 SAT) and now spends a bit of time tutoring students for the SAT, I'd argue that for you a whole summer is overkill for the SAT.
If you're a fast learner with a knack for pattern recognition, which your internship experience suggests to me that you are, mastering the SAT for you should be as simple as taking the 10 tests in the Official SAT book and going over answers and explanations with someone. That's easily achieved over a few weeks of focused work.
It seems crazy when you consider how much people freak out over it, but I'm confident this works and I encourage you to try it out.
If you have any specific questions about the SAT or the college applications process in general (something I also had a reasonable amount of success with in that I got into all 4 of the Ivies I applied to) feel free to email me.
I'm looking to go to Stanford upon graduating high school (like you also expressed an interest to do), and from what I have heard, they definitely value SAT scores very high, but if there isn't anything besides that (like your development/internship experience), they honestly don't care much about your scores. And also, I'm pretty sure the SAT takes place senior year, unless of course you are going to be using your genius capacities to do it earlier :)
Most people will take their SAT at the beginning of their Junior year. This way they have ample time to retake if they're not happy with their scores.
Stanford, MIT, and the Ivies see the SAT as more of a threshold score. I.E. there's not much difference between a 2300 and a 2400. As long as you have above a certain range, you should be fine. The SAT doesn't make or break people.
Doesn't matter. Having a good to decent SAT score enables one to get into a better college/university. As long as you don't spend more than 1 summer prepping for it, it's worth the time investment.
I think what you're doing is really neat. I'm also a high school student and I'm always excited to meet others my age. I'd love it if you could shoot me an email over at zach@zachlatta.com.
I've already been working on a community for high-school coders at http://www.teen2geek.com, and so once we launch (beta will be out in January 2014) I would really love it if some more guys like you could come over and contribute to the discussions. My email address is krishna.dholakiya@gmail.com in case anyone wants to talk :)
We need more kids like you! I see kids these days with their heads down in their mobile device playing games, facebook, instagram, snapchat and what not! They are wasting precious time. Time that will never come back!!!
Most of the kids my age are doing exactly what you just described above. I want to be the person making games and apps that other teens get addicted to.
Keep on trucking. I started working full time as a SE when I was 16. The job provided a nice relief from highschool and helped build up good working habits before I left for college. If you are interested, see if your school would be willing to allow for a work study so you would be able to pursue such things during the school year.
Hey Shalin, wonderful to hear from you. It's lovely to see your passion and focus.
I'm curious to hear about your peers. Do you have a group of friends your age that you hang out with, or do you spend most of your time with older people?
Also, random, but what kind of music do you listen to?
I would've loved to be able to be given the opportunity like this. I live in Perth and apart from mining the IT industry is non-existant. There are no internship and mentoring program. I say grab the bull by the horns and do as much as you can.
I thought the entire point of "interns" was to give young people (i.e. teenagers) the chance to work in a real company and get experience, usually over school holidays etc.
I think SV (and maybe modern capitalism) has corrupted the term "intern" to be "an excuse for us to not pay you" without the other benefits experienced by the "intern".
[EDIT] I should clarify that I am a Brit and never heard the term "intern" used outside of my above definition until I started reading US tech news where it seems to be applied to older people as well.
Isn't SV (i.e. the tech industry) one of the few places where interns do get paid (and paid well, to boot)? All of my buds in the social sciences (politics) and media industry (LA film industry) don't get paid or get paid very little.
Not really true. There is no corruption. White House internship doesn't pay anyone and is one of the hottest place to work for since days. It's entirely a decision people make. You don't want the money but the experience, you can go for it. No one is forcing you to take a job without salary.
Internships are also good at keeping out the wrong sort of people. Lets face it - if you can't afford to go to work and not get paid then you're not really from a good family, and we don't want the wrong sort of people invading our jobs. Someone with a few internships is obviously from the right stock and we can safely employ them, providing of course they go to our club.
Silicon Valley interns (in tech fields) are generally paid reasonably well. There may be some cases where tech companies here don't pay their interns but the majority certainly do. The cases of systemic intern non-payment seem to generally happen outside of the tech industry.
I find it funny that this was downvoted into oblivion. It's valid advice, especially considering this person is young and needs guidance/advice for best practices.
I don't know how I feel when I read about things like this.
It starts off as jealousy that the kids started their "career" at such a young age, then respect towards them for the same reason, but then I feel sad because at the end of the day I feel like they're being robbed of a childhood in some ways.
Then I go back and read, and it seems like the kid had a lot of fun, and maybe I'm the one who's lacking perspective.
I don't know. I think it's great at the end of the day. Obviously smart kid, and he'll go places, but I just don't want him to miss out on the more lighthearted times in his life.