I'm excited about where Valve is going with this, of course, but to be honest I'm concerned about controllers the most. Buying a good controller for a PC is not hard, but it's not simple either. Picture yourself as a "living room console guy" getting into PC gaming. You'd like to use a controller for a certain game.
Consider:
- You can use your XBox360, PS3 controller, or WiiMote, but that's not obvious. You'll need to do some research to figure out that you CAN do it as well as HOW to do it. Again, the steps aren't particularly complicated (especially for the XBox wired controller), but remember who we're targeting, here. If you don't know much about this stuff, you might be worried you'll break something or won't be able to hook your controller back to your console.
- If this doesn't occur to you or you'd rather not use your console controllers, you might be tempted to buy one of those gaming controllers you see at Radio Shack, Best Buy, or somewhere online. Chances are high that the controller you bought will be quite shitty in comparison to your console controllers. You'll notice everything from drifting inputs to cheap buttons to just plain uncomfortable hand feel. You'll convince yourself that you just picked wrongly, so you do some more research. You eventually come upon something pretty good, but it's expensive and it's STILL not your XBox 360 controller.
- If you get past all this (whether that's finding a good 3rd party controller or reusing your console controller), you're still not QUITE sure how each new PC game will react with a controller. Sure, maybe the mappings make sense, but you worry that you'll come upon something that requires an action the developers forgot to map to a controller button. Or maybe it'll just feel wrong because the controls for your particular game were clearly designed to work best for the physical characteristics of a mouse and keyboard. You know with enough tweaking this won't be a problem, but it still bothers you that you have to tweak anything in the first place.
Nothing I've outlined above is a problem for advanced gamers, but if something like a Steam Machine is ever going to take over the living room, it has to be a natural plug n' play experience with respect to input devices. And I mean natural for your mom or uncle, not for you.
Luckily it sounds like Valve will be addressing this head-on; I am more excited about what they have to say about this than about what the specs of any particular Steam Machine might be or what the beta might look like.
Video game controller having user swappable control components
Original Assignee: Valve Corporation
Abstract:
A game controller is provided. One or more main control input interfaces on the game controller consist of generalized sockets. A variety of modular input interfaces can be plugged into these sockets. Hardware specific to the input type of the modular input is contained within the modular input itself, and plugged in via an interface. This allows for dual analog sticks, a combination of analog and trackball, or further any combination of touchpad, directional pad, or additional components.
It was posted here too. What's cool in this case is that user X asks about the relevance of P, and user Y comes up with many months olds news on Q that happens to be the perfect missing piece in the puzzle.
This stuff happens all the time. Why is R this way? CEO of R Inc. comes up to tell you. Why is S not in space? It just so happen that a engineer from the space program is reading the comment and answers with a detailed insightful post.
You're right. That's what leads me to guess that they have significantly more than 2-3 layouts in mind.
Imagine selecting your weapons physically as well as in-game before going on a raid with some gamepad-plugins offering better control over in-game weapons or accessories than others.
Steam seems to have standardized on the XBox 360 controller. At least that's what they support with their current "couch mode" thing. So it seems like you don't need to worry too much about choosing the wrong controller since there is only one choice at the moment.
> Nothing I've outlined above is a problem for advanced gamers, but if something like a Steam Machine is ever going to take over the living room, it has to be a natural plug n' play experience with respect to input devices. And I mean natural for your mom or uncle, not for you.
Even though it's coming to the living room, I still don't feel that the first iterations of the Steam box are really targeted towards non-core gamers. Not even traditional video game consoles are a good fit for them beyond the original Wii, so I doubt even future versions of Steam machines will truly target non-core gamers. The products from Apple, Google, and Amazon are a better fit for that demographic, especially if any of them ever truly figure out TV... and ship. Unless Steam comes out with a cheap TV box, the non-core gamer isn't their target.
I can echo your concerns because I ran into it with Spelunky recently - they seem to only support Xbox360 controllers as their "controller" settings. I solved it by using Joy2Key to map keys to my controller (a very solid Logitech one!) and had no problems.
However, most people probably wouldn't want to jump through those kind of hoops (downloading a third party app + mapping the keys to the right keyboard keys) so I'd love if Steam had some sort of unified controller support, but I also feel like that's asking for a lot.
This is a pretty recent change in how controller support works in (Windows? DirectX? not 100% sure) but basically any third party controller can register itself as an Xbox controller.
I have an older Logitech DualAction and a newer one, the older one will fail those checks but the newer will register itself as an Xbox controller. It seems like Microsoft, somewhere, standardized what it means to be a "controller" finally instead of having an arbitrary button0 through button10 that are always different and constantly requiring remapping.
A good change, but really frustrating for anyone with older hardware.
That might have been true in the past (I remember having some trouble with a SideWinder controller on a dedicated control port in the 90's) but these days the 360 wired USB controllers are as plug'n'play as it gets (on windows at least). It Just Works.
PS3 controllers are a pity though, you need those shady ad-ridden closed source third party drivers.
More likely, you'll buy a SteamController as the preferred input on your SteamBox. In fact, they are basically teasing as much at the bottom of the page. Friday's announcement looks to be controller related.
"Wait, you mean I have to buy an XBox 360 controller to use my Steam Machine?"
"Nah, its compatible with a lot of controllers. In my experience the Xbox 360 one works pretty well so I'd just go with that. You can check the other ones out if you want, too."
Oh, that makes sense. But I simply assumed that the SteamBoxes (the official ones made by Valve that is) will come bundled with a controller. We just have to hope it'll be a good one (unlike the Ouya...).
Why is the Ouya's bad? It doesn't look as comfortable as an Xbox controller, but I haven't held one.
I like the idea of a touch pad for configurable interface elements. That's what I first thought of when the Valve modularity patent was mentioned. Has anyone played a game on Ouya that made good use of that touchpad?
Or am I mistaking and it's not both a touch screen and touch pad, just more of a trackpad-like input device?
Well that is the sort of FUD that Microsoft is counting on. That people recommend XBox 360 or XBox One controllers for their competitor's products. The average user isn't very tech savvy and then will fear that the XBox controlled might not work with their SteamMachine system or that it will be difficult to set up, and that the Steamtroller isn't as good as the XBox controller, so they will have to avoid all that fear and uncertanty and just buy a Microsoft XBox 360/One at Best Buy next to the XBox controllers and ignore the whole SteamMachine because of it.
The same thing happens when you recommend Linux to the average user, get a Microsoft Keyboard and Mouse to use with Linux. Well why aren't there Linux mice and keyboards? Can't I run Windows apps on Linux? No, well sort of, you have to install WINE and then if it is on the compatibility list, er ah look Linux has their own apps most are free and do the same thing as Windows apps but have a different user interface. Steam works on Linux, but only has 100+ Linux games, but if you run the Steam Windows Client under WINE some of not most of the games might work if you add in some exceptions to the built in libraries, etc. Then they just buy a Windows 8.1 PC instead of installing Linux over their old one that runs XP.
I really hope that SteamOS and SteamMachines catch on and port most of the Steam games to Linux, so I don't have to deal with this nonsense to my non-technical friends and family members. I hope the Steamtroller or whatever is as good as if not better than the XBox one.
Oh yeah I had friends and family members who bought a Macbook, and then ask me how to install Windows apps on it. Run Bootcamp, repartition the hard drive, reboot, stick in your Windows CD/DVD or USB stick and install, you now can dual boot Mac OSX and Windows. Then they don't know how to select it and forget what key to hold down, sell it and buy a Windows 8.1 tablet instead.
Basically if you are expecting an XBox, buy an XBox, if you want a Windows PC/Tablet buy a Windows PC/Tablet. If you want something else that is different and new, and might have a lower footprint OS that runs your games faster, and you don't care that it isn't an XBox or Windows PC/Tablet then try the SteamMachine and SteamOS. But please don't try putting XBox and Windows game disks into the SteamMachine!
Remember the average person that goes to Best Buy is a 'sheeple' controlled by FUD by the news media and other megacorproations to just part with their money on whatever new geegaw gadget they come up with as long as it is a 'trusted brand name' they are familiar with. They go to Best Buy because they hold their hand and tell them what they need to buy. If Valve was smart, they'd make a deal with Geeksquad to partition part of their area into a Steam Store that they can assist people with SteamMachine issues.
A couple years ago I bought a Logitech gamepad that happened to use Xbox protocol (I didn't read the label well enough, I just saw the name brand). I tried to use this Xbox360Controller driver but it didn't recognize my gamepad. So, I fixed the driver to work.
When Mountain Lion came out I had to update the driver, which had undergone some 32bit -> 64bit change but also added in some other garbage about Xbox chat pads that was breaking when I tried to use it with my Logitech game pad. I don't remember if it kernel panicked or just didn't work. Certainly I caused a kernel panic or two while tinkering with the driver. But I got it working again, mostly by commenting out stuff I didn't want.
I have kernel panic with this driver unfortunately. Wired XBox 360 with iMac 2011 and MacBook Pro 2012. Not sure what caused the issue... Because of it, I installed Windows via BootCamp and play all games over there, a bit inconvenient.
Which version of Xbox360Controller and what Mac OS version? You might want to try an older pre-64bit version of the driver if that will work on your OS.
Or you could try to debug the source if you're up for that. I would try but don't have the expertise to help without seeing it and tinkering with it.
Hold the phone there. Why is Windows even entering the comment section of a SteamBox/SteamOS article?
It's Linux-based, SixAxis controllers are easy to set up on both Linux and Android, Valve will have a very easy time creating a simple easy-to-use GUI for linking the two.
Windows isn't; your parent is explaining that clearly, given the 360 controller works great with Windows, using a controller with your PC is no longer quite the black art to the public that it used to be.
Linux has natively supported xbox 360 controllers through the xpad kernel driver for a number of years, and Windows asks to install drivers when you plug in the controller.
Agreed, there really needs to be some type of official controller. I'm assuming whatever input device they come up with be bundled with Valve's own Steamboxes, and available for purchase separately. Also, I wonder if there are agreements for other hardware manufacturers to bundle that same device.
This way, all games have a standard controller to develop towards. Everyone loves the Xbox controller, not only because it's a solid device, but because it's the standard controller for PC gaming. Most games are developed with it in mind, so it's typically plug and play. For this reason, I'm going to assume Valve launches a controller that has a similar configuration to the 360 controller, so all the previous games designed for the 360 controller are ready to go. However, it'll probably have some misc tweaks, like buttons to perform certain tasks within the Steam software, and perhaps a touchpad, pull out mini-keyboard or improved motion controls.
I'm not going to worry about people going to Radio Shack or Best Buy and randomly shopping for controllers. I think Valve has this under control, and we'll have THE controller, and third party controllers, similar to any other gaming console.
I use my Xbox 360 controllers with a no-name wireless receiver. It took some work to get the drivers working properly, but it's fantastic now. If Valve can provide a similar experience, except all plug-and-play, that'll be killer.
I totally agree that it's non-obvious to most of the gaming market, though.
Doesn't the next generation of controller simply work over bluetooth? I know the DS3 already does. If that's the case, it shouldn't require any specialized hardware, since almost everything comes with bluetooth these days.
That doesn't surprise me, the GamePad in particular seems like something that bluetooth wasn't really designed for. Does it even have the bandwidth to push video? It's pretty power-hungry when 100% active too.
I think they're actually using a variant of 802.11n on the 5 GHz band for the Wii U GamePad, probably because it's the cheapest option that has enough bandwidth.
This was my first thought when i heard about steam OS - currently I've forced the official Microsoft driver onto my Chinese knock-off wireless receiver, will that work on steamOS? i don't know...
The Linux kernel should support the receiver and xbox 360 gamepad out of the box. If its not currently I suppose this has a very high priority for fixing at Valve.
I got mine on Amazon. Believe it or not, it worked first try and it turned out to be a Microsoft one. Drivers were not an issue once I figured out that some of my USB ports were powered and others were not - it needs a lot of power to work.
To get it working, you need to install the Microsoft Wireless XBox 360 Controller drivers manually, then go to the hardware manager and manually specify the official Microsoft driver as the driver for this device. Easy enough if you know your way around driver updates, but not plug-and-play. It works great, though.
>Am I going to be using a mouse and a keyboard in the living-room?
>If you want. But Steam and SteamOS work well with gamepads, too. Stay tuned, though - we have some more to say very soon on the topic of input.
The third announcement will be the controller Valve patented some time ago. This controller replaces a thumbstick with a trackball, and might let you swap out input devices for different games. Regardless, it'll be painless to set up with SteamOS.
> "This controller replaces a thumbstick with a trackball"
That sounds like a special hell.
What would even be the point? Making it marginally easier to control products that were never properly re-designed as living room software at the expense of compatibility with essentially every piece of contemporary living room software?
Here's to hoping that if such a thing is actually rolled out, it falls under "an option" and isn't an approach they put too much emphasis on.
Is going to exhaust your thumb and cramp the hell out of your hand in record time.
And on top of that, occupy some 'third' control scheme somewhere between "kb/m" and "gamepad" that developers would have to explicitly target, at a time when so few of them even put the time into adding proper kb/m support for their console-first-PC-port-maybe-if-its-cheap-to-farm-out titles.
I find trackballs (the Logitech M570 in particular) much more comfortable to use over long periods of time personally. The only criticism I have of their design is that having the trackball on the side entails removing a lot of area where additional mouse buttons could have been placed, and I enjoy having extra buttons there to bind to debugging/build/vcs keys.
According to the patent other people in here have already linked, the feature of the gamepad will be that it uses "modules". Modules like directional pads, touch pads or trackballs. You will stick these modules into the pad and they will use interfaces within the controller.
Not sure just how sturdy the thing will be, all this talk about separate components being stuck together by the user sounds kinda fragile. But if it is, you will be able to configure your pad just the way you want.
Be interesting to see how they tackle the player-with-controller vs player-with-mouse/keyboard issue... clear advantage in FPS games with a mouse.
I'd buy a console tomorrow if they allowed mouse/keyboard - sick of all the cheaters in PC gaming, and having games get _better_ as the hardware ages would be a welcome change from having to constantly upgrade my video card to play new releases at a decent frame rate!
Valve have at least been thinking about that problem for awhile. Back in 2011 they were planning for CS:GO to have cross-platform play between Xbox, PS3 and PC. However, the idea got ditched in 2012.
I've never played a match that was console vs PC, but I've heard people say that Halo 2 for PC (which can be played with the Xbox 360 controller or mouse & keyboard) is easier with the controller. Keep in mind that this is a game that likely has mostly console gamers playing.
Halo features aim-assist, and aim-assist is usually disabled in mouse mode. Also, you can assume the controller-based gamers are coming from console experience (and therefore have already played H2 and know the maps and weapons), whereas the mousers are coming from other PC-based FPS games.
I blew the money to get one of their EDGE devices. It's not what it seems.
The way FPSs interpret mouse movement is by mapping units of mouse movement onto units of rotational movement. If you move the mouse x units to the left, your view will rotate f(x) units (an absolute relation). When mapping joystick movement, the location of the joystick determines the speed at which your view rotates. If the joystick is x units off center, you will move at f(x) units per second until the joystick moves again (a relative relation).
For this reason, it's pretty simple to convert relative joystick movement into mouse movement, since you simply need to map the joystick position onto an absolute mouse velocity. However, it's extremely difficult to turn the absolute mouse movement into a relative joystick position. From what I can tell, it takes the velocity of the mouse movement and returns it as a joystick position, so if you're moving the mouse at x units per second, it will return a joystick position of g(x), which the game will then turn into f(g(x)) units of rotation per second.
What you end up with is jerky and unresponsive. Mouse movement just can't be translated into joystick position in a transparent way. I used the thing for a couple days, and ultimately gave up on it. Even as a hard core Mouse/Keyboard gamer, I preferred the controller over the XIM.
I have a wired XBox 360 controller that I use for Big Picture, and it works out of the box on both Linux and Windows. It's also a fairly comfortable controller (Microsoft can make good hardware, it seems).
Is this actually true? I've been looking for a decent PC gamepad for a long time. The default recommendation seems to be the Xbox 360 controller, but with the caveat that the d-pad sucks. I play a lot of games that use the d-pad.
I have one of these that I've used forever, a Logitech Precision USB. If you just need a digital d-pad and don't care about analog sticks or triggers, it's great.
Although I've started seeing compatibility problems recently: the Xbox 360 controller has become such a standard that some newer indie games support ONLY them and not native PC gamepads.
Well, provided that you find the 360 controller's d-pad acceptable, the wired xbox 360 controller works directly, however the wireless 360 controller does not work directly, a different wireless controller that specifies working with the PC has to be purchased and uses a specialized receiver as well. However, once that is accomplished it works well. I do find it obnoxious that it both requires an external USB receiver and the typical wireless 360 controller does not work with the PC. Still, that is the one I use, and it works well.
Are you talking about the ones advertises for PC or the ones not sold for PC? When I bought mine (circa 2010) I had to purchase one advertises for PC as the one I had for the 360 before would not work with it otherwise. It seemed nonsensical to me that such was the case.
From the page. "Xbox 360 Controller for Windows works with most Windows XP-based PCs and Xbox 360, delivering a consistent and universal gaming experience."
It comes with a wireless dongle thing you plug in to your PC. Both the controllers that come with your 360 and this controller can be swapped between your PC and your 360 on demand by pushing the resync button on the controller and on the device simultaneously.
I've never heard of a 360 controller that didn't work both with the PC dongle and the 360 itself.
(replying to the child post) The products are not the same if for no other reason than because one comes with the receiver and ordering the other product does not, and that the receiver is even required is not something that is apparent beforehand without research, so the buyer must understand that having the product work as expected will require purchasing either the receiver as a stand alone product or as the bundle which is distinguished by being labeled as "...for Windows."
Naively, I had expected beforehand that the controller to use 802.11(a|b|g|n|ac) or bluetooth and therefore not need another receiver provided that those protocols were already available on the PC, but in the case of the wireless Xbox 360 controller another component is necessary for better or worse.
Luckily, I researched the situation before purchasing another controller with its usage on the PC in mind, so I did not encounter a potential headache until the solution dawned upon me.
Hopefully the next generation PS4 or Xbox One wireless controllers work without taking up a port on the PC with a wireless receiver again.
There actually exists two separate Microsoft Wireless 360 controllers, the one that specifies for Windows will work on both the PC and for the Xbox 360 (after syncing the controller with the appropriate receiver, something which is somewhat tricky if the PC receiver and the console receiver are within the controller's wireless range).
However, the one which does not specify "...for Windows" will not work with the PC, which is the distinction I am attempting to express when recommending it as an option for PC gaming.
The "For windows" version is simply bundled with the wireless receiver. Once you have one of those, you can use any 360 controller.
I regularly use both the controller that came with my 360, and another 360 controller that I brought separately (with no "for windows" marking) in addition the controller that came with the wireless receiver.
I use a PS3 controller with my PC, using the Motioninjoy drivers. Better than having to buy an wireless receiver for my wireless XBox 360. The PS3 wireless controller actually sends control commands over the USB port if it's connected, whereas the wireless XBox 360 controller does not.
I think this also exposes a problem with most tech sites who issue fifty-billion gadgets a decimal score from 0 to 10. This won't help people decide on a controller, if there are thirty products out there.
With mice, you can usually just buy Logitech and be guaranteed to get a great product, but with controllers, you'll probably end up relying on word of mouth.
This is why The Wirecutter is so important, but people who play videogames will go to videogame websites for advice instead - and won't be any wiser for it.
>You can use your XBox360, PS3 controller, or WiiMote, but that's not obvious.
Just a thought: In a few weeks every Xbox360 and PS3 will become obsolete. So, what are the chances of me installing SteamOS on there? I'd love to turn my PS3 into a SteamOS box.
For PS3 the chances are 0 percent due to a very unusual hardware architecture. For Xbox360 I'm not as sure, but I would say chances are also low. These devices are closed and contain chips to make sure only secure and encrypted code can be run. This is to prevent console hacking, game copying, etc.
Yeah, but PS3 supported Linux not too long ago. 360 I figure is a dealbreaker. Shame we don't have the legislation or political power to be allowed to tinker with our equipment, especially EOL'd equipment.
Why would you use a controller? Wireless keyboard and mouse is the way to go. Especially if you're going to play an FPS. You'll be slaughtered if you use awkward analog sticks instead of a mouse...
Consider:
- You can use your XBox360, PS3 controller, or WiiMote, but that's not obvious. You'll need to do some research to figure out that you CAN do it as well as HOW to do it. Again, the steps aren't particularly complicated (especially for the XBox wired controller), but remember who we're targeting, here. If you don't know much about this stuff, you might be worried you'll break something or won't be able to hook your controller back to your console.
- If this doesn't occur to you or you'd rather not use your console controllers, you might be tempted to buy one of those gaming controllers you see at Radio Shack, Best Buy, or somewhere online. Chances are high that the controller you bought will be quite shitty in comparison to your console controllers. You'll notice everything from drifting inputs to cheap buttons to just plain uncomfortable hand feel. You'll convince yourself that you just picked wrongly, so you do some more research. You eventually come upon something pretty good, but it's expensive and it's STILL not your XBox 360 controller.
- If you get past all this (whether that's finding a good 3rd party controller or reusing your console controller), you're still not QUITE sure how each new PC game will react with a controller. Sure, maybe the mappings make sense, but you worry that you'll come upon something that requires an action the developers forgot to map to a controller button. Or maybe it'll just feel wrong because the controls for your particular game were clearly designed to work best for the physical characteristics of a mouse and keyboard. You know with enough tweaking this won't be a problem, but it still bothers you that you have to tweak anything in the first place.
Nothing I've outlined above is a problem for advanced gamers, but if something like a Steam Machine is ever going to take over the living room, it has to be a natural plug n' play experience with respect to input devices. And I mean natural for your mom or uncle, not for you.
Luckily it sounds like Valve will be addressing this head-on; I am more excited about what they have to say about this than about what the specs of any particular Steam Machine might be or what the beta might look like.