I've heard a fair number of people say this, as a social piety line - one of those things everyone nods their head at, with which you're not supposed to disagree. But I do disagree. Certainly it's important. But there's nothing more important than reproduction and the endless family trance? I refuse to accept that.

I observe a lot of people doing a passable job of raising and providing for their kids and using that as an excuse for never pursuing what they really wanted. It is the socially acceptable way to plug the existential void (for twenty years, anyway). Apart from its obvious flaws is the ironic fact that in the end, it's a lousy, dispiriting example to set for one's kids.

I applaud your defense of responsibility. But after years of struggling with this, one thing I am sure of is that it's not as simple as TV moralists want to make it.

I think there are two interpretations. One is that having and raising kids is the most important thing you can do. This is, as you say, questionable (which is not to say that it's not extremely important to me, personally). The second, however, and the one I think tjic meant, is that if you do have kids, then raising them and providing for them is your primary responsibility. I think that's a lot harder to dispute.

Primary responsibility? Sure, up to a point. Where that point is is what's in question. "Most important thing in life" is far too absolute. Is anything more dangerous than a socially acceptable opiate?

We all have 4 Billion years of ancestors who lived short and brutal lives. They sacrificing everything for their children in the total poverty of nature. Often they would have to watch more than half of their children die in order to raise some that made it to adulthood.

Now, I'm fat and lazy, I don't have to search for food, and none of my children are likely to die. If I said raising children was too much work, or my time was too important, or I had more important things to do, I can almost imagine some old german farm woman from 500 years ago rolling with laughter.

Fortunately for you your ancestors disagreed (if you enjoy existing). Either you will change your mind when you hit the right point in life, or your genes will drop out of the gene pool and be displaced in the next generation with genes which are slightly more likely to produce a person who wants to reproduce.

I agree with you, though, that most people end up not really taking care of their kids, and just letting the TV raise them. That is very annoying. Kids really do require endless attention and time, but I've done both (had kids and previously didn't have kids) and I can tell you that something clicks in your brain, and you wouldn't want to go back.

I suppose I could hit you with the categorical imperative or something :)

If you don't want to have kids, be responsible about that.

I don't read a moral judgment about the necessity of having children in the quoted sentence, although many people seem to.

If you don't have kids, then the statement is pointless. Having kids you don't want just to meet some societal standard isn't just stupid, it's cruel to them.

...which is a good reason not to think about it. ;-)

I completely agree that if you think through the joke, logically, it's really not all that funny and kinda offensive. But there are lots of jokes that are pretty offensive when you think through them. Dead-baby jokes. Microsoft Bing jokes. Various ethnic jokes. Holocaust jokes. The reason why we find them funny is because they stretch the bounds of social propriety.

I find it's better to draw a line between lets-be-serious-this-is-a-bad-thing mode and okay-we're-joking-now-say-whatever-you-want mode. Because things get awful dreary if you never joke about stuff that's morbid, depressing, and generally a bad thing. It's like humor is the natural human coping mechanism...

No, it's the most important thing in your life. Do you know what I find more appalling than not knowing or caring whether one has procreated? People who pass judgement on those people based on their own opinions.

I'm sorry, but there is no objective reasoning whatsoever to claim that raising/providing for one's children is the most important thing in life and for you to suggest same, and berate others for not taking your viewpoint, is the only appalling thing here. Get off your high horse.

(no, I have no children, illegitimate or otherwise)

For myself, yes, raising my children well is the most important thing in my life. Of course, part of that means doing my job well, since providing material things like food and shelter is critical to the good life. But at the end of the day, my work can't supersede my commitment to my family. Our goal as a family is to foster the sort of "home economics" that Wendell Berry writes about--a home that is economically productive as a unit, not as separate parts.

That said, before I had children, I really had no grasp of what it meant to be a parent. Ten years ago, I could have never imagined having kids, let alone being as committed to them as I am now. I don't say this because I think I'm the greatest parent in the world (far from it, really), but because I think you really can't understand how being a parent changes your outlook on life (if you take your new role as a parent seriously).

If you don't have kids, good for you. I say, if you don't really want them, then don't have them. My life has certainly changed for the better because of them, but I don't expect that to be true for everyone. Do what you wish, just be sure you do it well.

So you're countering my argument by claiming I should have to prove the inverse? I suppose I can stop reading right there. You're claiming that your opinion is objective fact and judging people according to their agreement with it. Trying to argue that I should have to prove my side of the argument is even more asinine than your original claim.

> No, it's the most important thing in your life. Do you know what I find more appalling than not knowing or caring whether one has procreated? People who pass judgement on those people based on their own opinions.

No, it's the most important thing in one's kid's life.