Erdogan government is an oppressive government, with increasing authoritarian and antidemocratic politics, and his supporters include a lot of Islamic organizations, comprising elements of Al Kaida, Hizbullah and other salafist organizations and they all have strong antisemitic tone. This government recently released all the members of Islamic terrorist organizations, who aggressively killed many innocent people. So watch out other comments, here, mainly many supporters of the government, are here to just make a false impression of peaceful environmental demonstrations, violently oppressed.
Be careful. some supporters of the government, are even forming Nazi SS style mobs to attack demonstrating families. People like @cup, are cleverly embedded opinion makers, who are there to hide the authoritarian, regime. Erdogan yesterday called, Twitter a curse and social media an enemy. So be careful about commenters here.
With all due respect, cup is a long time, respected member of this community. You are a new member who has only ever posted this comment. Is it really appropriate of accusing somebody of being a "cleverly embedded opinion maker" when you come across as exactly that, and they do not?
Your comment is full of emotionally sensational discourse, and very short on data or sources to support it.
Furthermore, you attack a fellow HNer (@cup) and brand him a "Nazi" for sharing sensible argument, instead of addressing the points he makes.
The recent discussions around Turkey on HN, and the fact that comments like yours are getting upvoted, speaks heaps of the direction this site is heading towards.
> Oversimplified translations is; AKP members are given police uniforms to go beat up protesters.
And I'm supposed to take this at face value, without this being corroborated by different news outlets? For all I know, the people from both sides of this matter are trying to social engineer me into being on their side. I am not on either's side.
I am not asking you to believe its authenticity. I was just pointing out to an example of the events he was referring to when he said Nazi. You said he called @cup a Nazi, that is not true.
If the media had done their job and covered the protest when it started getting big, or when the tear gas started flowing, I'd understand.
However, there was a near blackout for the first few DAYS of the protest and the only news was social media. I, too, have friends in Istanbul and have been given first hand accounts. The number of apolitical members of this protest are staggering. As a friend said, the generation was brought up to be apolitical after their parents had grown up in an over-politicized and protest-heavy culture that led to the coup and horror stories of abuse of political prisoners.
(BTW, everyone I've talked to only decided to go out after the tear gassing had been started; the demonstration was in support of the demonstration rather than the original Gezi Parki protest.)
Whatever is happening in Turkey, things don't get solved by a revolution. A revolution is the worst thing that can happen to a country at this time. I'll list here a few of key reasons:
1. Vulnerability: A loss of the leader will cause wide internal and external vulnerability. Any party will try to somehow colonize the vulnerable country which doesn't have a clear leader or a clear path. Certainly, for their economic, political and geographic benefits.
2. Economic deterioration: It's even worse in Turkey. Loss of Touristic money flow will cause the economy to deteriorate and joblessness to increase, increasing instability and feeding that loop.
3. Less Freedom and democracy: Indeed, a revolution on the streets doesn't bring democracy or free speech. If anything, it encourages extremists to kill/censor/stop the other party.
Seeing how things developed in Tunisia in the last 3 years, I'll advise against revolutions at any time. And I'm talking about peaceful ones.
Be very careful when it comes to issues about Turkey. There is a very interesting and subtle social media campaign backed by yet to be seen figures who are making this a much bigger/disingenious issue than it really is. The interesting facts you should realise are that Erdogan and his political party won the last three elctions, increasing their support by about 3 - 5% each round. Their last win saw them secure 49.4% of the vote, which means over three terms of power they've actually increased their support base by 15%.
So why are there protests?
Well theyre not about a tree unsurprisingly. There are 3 political factions who have subverted the initial protest, the BDP, CHP and TKP parties which are socialist, communist, secular or a combination of them (TKP being the most extreme).
Surprisingly, these three parties were recently holding protest against Erdogans decision to allow refugees from Syria to enter Turkey. Yes, the three parties who are apparantly looking after the wellbeing of trees in a park don't want refugees of war entering Turkey (though no one mentiosn the fact that these three parties also support Assad because the Baath party is/was communist and secular too).
Theres also the DHKP which is an extremist communist (terrorist?) party which hates the fact that the leader of Turkey is a practising Muslim and that Islam is seeing a revival in Turkey.
So try to read between the lines and see that theres more to the story than trees. Redditors and HN folks seem to be falling hook line and sinker for a fantastic marketing astro turfing campaign.
Just a few more pointers. During erdogans reign he improved the minimum wage by 500%, allowed farmers to access capital at a 5% interest rate as opposed to the initial 54% and paid off the last installment towards the IMF freeing them of all their debts. For the first time in modern era, Turkey now owes no money to the IMF and is the 15th largets economy in the world.
Turkey does have problems, but theres more to this story that meets the eye and people need to wonder why and how this has blown up so successfully on social media sites.
You either closed your eyes for the last few days or don't know anybody in Turkey.
I have friends and family who protested (peacefully) on the streets of Istanbul, Izmir and Ankara in the last few days. Almost all of them had to endure tear gas, beatings and other cruel events.
I have also been told by the exact same people (who don't belong to any political party btw) that people who normally wouldn't stay in a room together (think soccer fans of opposing teams, religious and non-religious people, nationalists and communists) went onto the streets to protest against the police brutality, SIDE BY SIDE.
You are right, Erdogan and his party won the last three elections. But there are also rumours that they bought votes, so like you said - don't believe everything you read.
The problem is way bigger than a few political parties trying to pull strings (honestly your opinion sounds very pro-government and almost conspiracy theoretical): There are people RIGHT NOW in the streets getting BEAT UP by the police (the very same organization that should PROTECT those people).
Look around on twitter and facebook, read posts of REAL PEOPLE. The police brutatlity has taken a level which is inhumane and has to be stopped.
Edit: (sorry I'm getting a little angry here) Posts like yours are exactly the reason why people look at this and think "oh this is just another political party power move / somebody trying to exploit the situation. This is probably all fake anyway" - while people are getting beat up.
"this is probably all fake anyway - while people get beat up.
Why did the main political blocs which are supporting these protests ( BDP, CHP and
TKP ) protest against allowing the syrian refugees enter turkey then. Can't you see that this is a political issue. What flags are people holding, that's a dead give away.
Violence and police brutality are terrible and inexcusable but this issue and protest isn't black not white.
The moment the government starts using violence to surpress it, it becomes black and white. What motivations might be behind various subsets of the demonstrators is pretty much irrelevant at that point.
I agree completely. No matter what started the protests or who the parties behind the protest are, the fact that people are willing to withstand tear gas and water cannons shows that they have something worth fighting for.
It is not black and white indeed, but you are painting a black and white picture yourself. You should ask your question about the Syrian refugees to BDP, CHP and TKP themselves, nobody can know what they are thinking.
The bottom line is: this is a grassroots movement. These parties are just piggybacking, perhaps because they see an opportunity for political gain, perhaps because for such a wide response inevitably some people who cannot disassociate themselves from their parties are also joining the protests.
Just because it's political for some people doesn't mean it's political for all. Discounting honest protests by some because others are politically motivated is one-dimensional thinking.
The campaign is there to provide insights what's going on in Turkey, it's not questioning the average income increase, China is one the greatest economical powers of the world, so what? It doesnt mean people are free and treated right.
This campaign is there for supporting the most basic human right: being heard.
As a side note, the protests were never not influenced by a political party at all. I personally know several AKP voters, who are on the street now.
I agree with this. I don't know about the situation in Turkey, but definitely, average salary is not the measure of people's well-being at all. If peaceful citizens go to the streets to protest, they really feel that something is going wrong.
Last year, autocratic government of Russia unleashed repressions agains their own citizens, and it was (and is) really ugly. I hope that people of Turkey will withstand the violent actions of the government, and their voice will be heard.
When you say minimum wage has increased 500%, those who don't know the inflation rate is ~10% will think people got 5 times richer. There is indeed more to this story than meets the eye; minimum wage is below the poverty limit.
I don't know the taxes in other, more wealthier, countries but when you deduct income taxes TRY 773 (EUR 317) is left. [1]
I think this is beside the point. Parent is suggesting a 500% increase when AKP was ruling. I wanted to point out that this is a wordplay. Please read parent and then my comment again.
I could refute other points in his argument. But I'd rather spend my energy in productive endeavors. I hope just this one will make people re-evaluate the credibility of his other claims.
When you say they subverted the initial protest, do you mean before or after the police clamped it? I'm just wondering because if they'd politicised (to some extent made more extreme too), that could explain a lot about the police action. Alternatively, maybe the police made a bad shout upsetting a peaceful protest and these parties capitalised on angry people?
It's inaccurate that the protests are subverted by these 3 political parties. This may be a pro-government or right-wing argument and it lacks the understanding of the true nature and motivation of the protests.
This was the turning point of everything and people wanted to go to Gezi Park to support protesters. The governors response was escalating the police power and excessive use of tear gas. So the protests evolved to a anti-fascist and anti-government movement.
PM Erdogan's response to the protests was nothing but provocative. He insisted that they have made their final decision for the park and they will not retreat. He also announced he will build a Mosque near Gezi Park (an extremely controversial project that has a former history) and they will also demolish Ataturk Cultural Center (an opera/theatre house across Gezi Park, having a symbolic significance representing the secular values of Turkey and carrying the name of the founder of the modern Turkey). He likes to call such projects as "crazy projects".
Erdogan's provocative attitude was nothing new. In a typical week in Turkey you hear more controversial things from him. But for about few months it's getting worse and worse, and more authoritarian and conservative. Erdogan's Syria policy and last terrorist attracts was one of the reasons of discontent. The opposition parties were inadequate and there was blackout in the mainstream media. So people waited without any reaction for long time. This Gezi Park "crazy project" was just the last straw and everything escalated so quickly.
Your comment is pretty much a much better written version of the story I knew so far. The comment I replied to seemed to suggest something a bit different, with a coalition of political opposition taking advantage here. I wanted to see where what I knew fitted into that narrative so I could try to form an opinion on it.
> and people need to wonder why and how this has blown up so successfully on social media sites.
One might have had to wonder that, if it had not been for the extremely poor mainstream media coverage. That in itself has been a substantial driver for a lot of the social media attention outside of Turkey at least.
Yes, there are other parties that exist in Turkey. The people protesting are from different backgrounds, educations, futbol teams and political parties, and have joined together to protest the brutality that was exhibited by the police, the media censorship and the built up frustration with the government's policies.
Yes, the AK party receives a substantial amount of the votes as they are the unified religious based party that appeals to the majority of the country.
I agree that people should be careful in judging happenings in countries they have limited knowledge of, however, I see that you have no links to back your points so people have to rely on what you're saying. All the things I have observed so far are in direct contradiction to your points. Specifically,
* "social media campaign backed by yet to be seen figures", I don't know what you are referring here, it could be the typical conspiracy theory fueled thinking (e.g. "Israel/US was behind the twin tower attacks"). What I see from my Facebook and Twitter feeds is that all my friends, both in Turkey and in US, have been busy for the past 4-5 days in backing the protests by sharing information, etc. Naturally, some misinformation was communicated but that doesn't prove the point that everything was done by "outside powers".
* BDP was not heavily involved in the protests; however, a BDP representative was the first government person to try to stop the dozers in the park.
* I wish CHP were more involved! As you no doubt know, Kilicdaroglu, CHP's president, is a clueless guy who is incapable of seizing the moment even now. He tried to have large gathering on Saturday but did not have much effect.
* Your point that DHKP and TKP are somehow involved and/or masterminded the protests is ludicrous. True, these groups have in the past organized protests in Turkey and may have been involved in the protests (I saw people holding DHKP flags among the crowds a few times). That doesn't change the fact that the protests were middle-class-based at their peak. How else to explain involvement of groups such as BJK Carsi (btw these guys are quite a phenomenon, if you want to know more check out Elif Batuman's piece in The New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/03/07/110307fa_fact_...).
It is a fact that PM Erdogan has kept Turkey's economy alive and well, no small feat considering the fact that Europe is having its worst recession since WWII. It is equally obvious that he has become very authoritarian in the past 1-2 years. I can give quite a number of links but just listening to his news brief with a Turkish Reuters reporter is enough to showcase his impatience, I think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abxc0b0J2UY
This is ridiculous. I'm at work so I can't do a point by point refutation but I will later.
It's obvious that you know more than the average person on this subject, but you're falling into the trap of thinking that just because you know some things, you have a good (or even the best) picture of what is happening.
First of all, the main significant thing about these protests is that it was the FIRST large scale protest to not be organized by any political group(s) and instead is grassroots. People just started messaging each other and walking outside of their houses to support others. A day or two later, parties finally started organizing but the protest is nonpartisan. I have never otherwise seen a TKP (left-communist party) and MHP (ultra-nationalist right) flags flying together EVER! There are also people from Laz, soccer teams, Kurds, workers unions, LGBT groups. I am getting daily updates from almost all of my friends who are taking part in the protests. The idea that it was "subverted", or is fake astroturfing is absurd. Read this: http://technosociology.org/?p=1255
Third, you need to learn a lot more about election politics and demographics in Turkey.
Democracy is not elected dictatorship. But Erdogan has made it clear that this is his interpretation of it, many times.
P.S. There are so many videos (with context) / images of clear and unincited police brutality that I want to puke when I hear you deny them. I've been compiling a list. More on this later too.
@cup has said nothing ridiculous, he just made a point: there is a lot more to this than meets the eye.
You're closer to the grassroots portion of it apparently, but what you are probably missing is larger context - other groups pushing into it trying to use the protests for their own ends.
I'm no fan of the AKP (Erdogan's party) but there is indeed more going on here.
The closer you are to a tree, the harder it is to see the forest.
"but what you are probably missing is larger context"
I would disagree, there is no larger context than the erosion of democracy. That is what the protests are about.
The people on the streets are not trying to push any agenda except democracy.
Other groups trying to further their own agenda is inevitable in any system and not related (this is obviously a much more favorable story line for the current government to tell the world).
I cannot tell if the top comment knows this, but the comment about blowing up on social media suggest he doesn't understand it is the only way to communicate and get the message out.
A) there is a media blackout, no television station reporting this inside Turkey.
B) Turkcell the nations largest communications provider was pressured to disrupt communications in Istanbul (which they did)
Point being social media is the only way to communicate about things like this, as the press are either in prison already or afraid.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3103432560875 (police attacking random people including a woman for no reason).
Here is the democratic leaders response “There is now a menace which is called Twitter,” Erdogan said. “The best examples of lies can be found there. To me, social media is the worst menace to society.” (you just can't make this stuff up).
Can you explain why you think so, or provide examples of "other groups pushing into it trying to use the protests for their own ends"? Up to know this has been largely backed by people who normally don't get involved with government protests.
Erdogan's "Democracy is like a streetcar. When you come to your stop, you get off." sums it up. Perhaps people were willing to accept it for the economic growth, but the threshold has been crossed and now it's all tipping the other way.
Not at all. The protestors have legitimate grievances however the initial protest over green wedges in turkey have been subverted by a coalition of opposition political groups looking to exploit discontent.
Don't forget that there is a major war occuring on Turkeys border and significant geopolitical games occuring. This isn't about trees anymore.
Nobody talks about the trees anymore. You should read the description of the campaign:
"But this is not just about a park. Before the park was the closure of an Ottoman pastry shop, the arrests of journalists, laws on alcohol sales, constantly changing school curricula. Gezi Park and the subsequent police violence on demonstrators were just the latest examples of a fundamental shift away from basic civil rights."
Thank you for the insight, its often hard if not impossible to be unbiased when it comes to these `uprisings` and civil conflicts. So hearing both sides is refreshing, do you have any sources for the information you provided?
Why the heck do these people want to advertise to Americans? This is a Turkish issue among Turks. What does Uncle Sam have to do with this? Inviting foreign involvement and commentary seems like an obviously horrible idea to me.
Reminds me of the "color revolutions" and the Iranian protests a while ago. You knew it was all BS when they kept trotting out so many slick people speaking flawless English.
Because they can't advertise in a mainstream Turkish newspaper. The whole blowup happened because the government has been increasingly turning into a dictatorship. Newspapers and TV stations are heavily censored.
I only hope American's don't get too generous and try to bring democracy to Türkiye. You know, American flavored democracy with marines and smart bombs.
1. Americans will read the news and think "Oh wow, I'm not going to Turkey anytime soon" then move on. (Much like when they read an article about violence in Mexico, etc.)
2. Americans will read the news and think "What a hell hole out there. I'm so happy America is the best. We have it so good here". This will further re-enforce their (incorrect) views about America.
I have to wonder, who stands to gain the most if these full-page ads actually run in American media?
Most of the threads on this post and some other recent ones on HN provide a counterpoint: Many people in the West (note that NYT is widely read all over the world) don't know what's happening in Turkey and are curious. At best they are getting the government's version of events. Now, at least they'l have a single page of information from the other side.
I agree that a compaign to advertise to Americans (or any international public) is suspicious. They must reach for their own people, and this is the only right long term strategy. However, I'm afraid that most of Turks can be just too apathetic.
That's right. Most people watch mainstream media that was airing penguin documentaries when police was brutally attacking to peaceful protesters (there wasn't even provocateurs amongst them then, they joined much later).
I read anecdotes that when people try to explain what's happening these citizens display disbelief. They are possibly the same people who sold their votes for a bag of coal:
Be careful. some supporters of the government, are even forming Nazi SS style mobs to attack demonstrating families. People like @cup, are cleverly embedded opinion makers, who are there to hide the authoritarian, regime. Erdogan yesterday called, Twitter a curse and social media an enemy. So be careful about commenters here.