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How the kids stole the show: Young Coders tutorial at PyCon (pycon.blogspot.com)
168 points by jnoller on March 25, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 22 comments



“I don't think you'd ever see that kind of experimentation in a classroom full of adults, who would more likely do everything in their power not to break their computers,”...

I really think, more than anything, this is why we should be teaching kids to code and so on in school. Most of the good coders I know have been doing it from a young age, and I think a lot of it comes from the fearlessness of youth.

Personally, I know I owe a lot to this. I "broke" the computer more times than I can count, by just experimenting, playing and otherwise doing stuff that I now know to be "reckless". There was a guy in the IT department and my dad's work who gave me an absurd number of hours of free tech support and teaching, because I couldn't figure out how to undo some of those mistakes, and would patiently walk me through getting things put right before my folks came home from work. (In retrospect, I don't think they would have minded, but I didn't want to get in trouble for breaking the expensive toy!)


As someone who was a lab TA for a little while and a district-level sysadmin for a while longer, the thing which comes to mind when I think of school machines is "fragile". They could in fact be "broken" in the sense that it would take a nontrivial investment in time to get it back to a state where anyone could find it useful again. Even firing up "ghost" (or whatever the equivalent is these days) takes a while to happen.

I guess this probably isn't as bad now with actual privilege separation (non-admin accounts) in Windows and Macs these days, but some memories are hard to forget.

There's something to be said for a box which is going to be just fine if you power-cycle it.


> There's something to be said for a box which is going to be just fine if you power-cycle it.

Presuming a Windows environment, have you ever tried DeepFreeze? Every school environment I've worked IT for that hasn't gone diskless seems to have started using it in the last decade. A lot of demo computers on display in stores, too (I think my local Apple Store is now using the OSX version; not sure how widespread that is.)

If you're running a Linux setup, of course, you can just do the equivalent with a tmpfs overlay on /.


Not personally, but I saw things like it used back then. It was pretty funny, since the machine would get a new virus definition file, then it would blow itself back to the snapshot, and then it would get infected... and so on, and so on...

Fortunately I only had to witness it and never had to run a whole fleet of Windows boxes.


One more reason to love Xen and friends.


> Most of the good coders I know have been doing it from a young age,

As someone who started programming when I was 21, I sometimes feel like I don't stand a chance.


Early coding gives you a head start, but in my experience, things start to even out when everyone reaches their late 20s. I see a lot of developers who started young basically lose interest in learning new technologies by the time they reach 30; after 15-19 years of 'coding'.

I'd argue if you're willing to embrace a complex new skill in adulthood, you're probably going to be more willing to learn new stuff as your career progresses. This will give you an edge when your peers start getting set in their ways.

Another thing: I learned to code when I was 13, and was fortunate enough to have some friends in grades 7-12 who did the same, but ultimately the stuff we did was simplistic and hacky. It was totally undisciplined, and wasn't exactly production quality stuff. We were juvenile, and our code was juvenile. In a good way.


Fifteen years of coding? He he. These are just babies. Just started learning how not to over-design things.

And in reality years of coding doesn't matter. Learning to code early doesn't matter. What matters is with how many people you've collaborated. And how many releases of different products you've shipped.

You can code you whole life, but if it is the same damn piece of code, you wouldn't learn a thing. And if you don't actually release stuff, you also wouldn't learn a thing.

Last point (releasing stuff) is very important. If a kid 'learns' to code, but doesn't release his stuff - it is not real. Most of that learning is far from reality and wasted.


I know how you feel... I didn't start until I was 21 and I'm 25 now. If you try to compete with somebody who has been coding since they were 10 on pure coding talent you'll lose.

But that's fine. Use your cross-functional skills to your advantage... whatever you did from ages 8-21 when combined with the coding you did from 21-present is likely just as (if not more) valuable than the skills a person who's been coding since childhood.


As someone who has worked with many different programmers from very different walks of life, it doesn't matter. Some of the worst programmers I know started early. Some of the best started even later than you.

It all comes down to your ability for self inflection, a strong desire to always be better and, of course, a love of programming.


Don't worry. I suspect the reason that people percieve that most good coders started young is that people who start young have already demonstrated that they have a lot of interest and passion in the subject. So it follows that they would be good disprortionantly often.

If you have the same passion, then starting late shouldn't hold you back that much.

Having said that, I am one of the lucky ones who started young.


10,000 hours, can be put in from ages 21 to to 28 too.

I enjoyed the lax pace of doing it over ages 5 to 28 though.


Just talking on the interest you can get from having kids give talks at conferences...

We just had Boise Code Camp 2 weeks ago. We had one talk on Kid Programming, which was given by two 11 year olds (using Scratch) and a 6 year old (using LOGO) -- and two of them were girls. We put the talk in one of our larger rooms and we packed it. People standing in the back and sitting on the floor.

As an aside, just about every year we have had a large number of parents attending who would bring one or two kids with them. Out of 400 people I could usually 15-20 people younger than 18. We have not had any trouble because of it.

I think there is a lot of interest, both from kids and parents, to learn about programming. A our code camp, I'm hoping to open up multiple sessions for kids (I'd like to have a multiple hour block). Some of those kids already have good resumes going. One I saw in particular was able to talk on Java and C without any difficulty (and he preferred vi as his editor) -- he was maybe 12.

For other conference organizers, (if you have room) please consider having talks aimed at kids. But also just encourage parents to bring their tech interested kids with them.


Hello. I would like to get involved with Boise Code Camp. We're a small 60-employee software company in Twin Falls. It's exciting you have such an effort and we'd like to get involved. My email is in my profile -- couldn't find yours.


I was interested in teaching a 6th grade class how to make a video game. I volunteered at Citizen Schools to teach a 90 minute session per week over 10 weeks at a low-income school. Made them a simple IDE where they could draw things and make them move around the screen with high-level Lua code.

It was largely a disaster due to classroom management issues, though 3 students did complete a game. I definitely think the 1:3 teacher-student ratio mentioned in the article is necessary to making this kind of thing successful.


(I'm Katie, one of the teachers! Normally I'm kcunning, but I' lost my password.)

I think we would have had a disaster of our own, if we had done this without volunteers. Kids are notorious for not speaking up if they're having issues, and from the front, a kid that is 'getting' it looks the same as a kid that's completely lost.

I was surprised at how many people wanted to volunteer, as well! We already have a list of eager people for next year.


The ways in which kids are going to change the world will be mind blowing. We teach young girls how to code with www.ladieslearningcode.com and the talent that these girls have is incredible. I can't wait for that generation to be the future CEOs and CTOs of the world.


As long as I don't see any posts that say "I'm 12 and I haven't done anything important, should I give up?" here on HN


Heh. Louis (awesome kid - 12 years old maybe? at PyCon) told me "I can code but I have no original ideas!"

I told him to give it time...


Original ideas aren't a necessity in this business. Execution and timing are really important too.

Anyone remember MySpace? LiveJournal? Xanga? ConnectU?

I'm pretty sure they all predated Facebook, were quite similar to Facebook, and Facebook just outmaneuvered them with execution.

Or think about Blizzard in the mid-to-late '90s. Warcraft/Starcraft weren't the first RTS games -- Blizzard wasn't an innovation leader -- but they were extremely polished products. Flawless execution beat first mover advantage; have you heard anything about the Dune series lately from someone who's not a hardcore retrogamer?


This is the generation that can extinguish gender issues, and this is the kind of news that should be coming out of these conferences.


And, honestly, when you look at the number of people involved/directly impacted, this is a much bigger story for PyCon, IMHO.




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