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As of today, App.net is a freemium service (app.net)
115 points by anu_gupta on Feb 25, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 159 comments



I'm going to look at this from their perspective. They have a ton of subscribers right now, but they have 2 problems on the near horizon:

1. They know that a lot of subscribers have abandoned the service and probably won't pay again, but they don't want to have to report that the number of users is declining once those subscriptions start to expire.

2. Acquiring new customers is not happening fast enough to keep critical mass or grow.

This move is to address those two problems. I also think it's a negative signal for the future of the company because I don't think a limited free account will get people to join. While they make clear that they are not a Twitter clone, the concept of following people is a Twitter concept, and you don't have those same limitations on a Twitter free account.

There's something in general that bothers me about App.net. In my career I've found that software engineers rarely are able to climb the org chart like business people are. The reason I've found is that engineers in general have a certain disdain for schmoozing and company politics, so they try to isolate themselves from it. App.net's marketing pitch I feel appeals to that isolationist desire and that's part of the reason it was such a hit.


What's your evidence to support claim #1?


Actually, I think the lack of active users was proven recently.

This "goodwill" move seems to reinforce that. This smells like Second Life's PR all over again.

edit: OP changed #1. Used to say they had a ton of users.


Are you talking about me? I didn't change my post in any way.


And the million dollar question is how do I convert my paid account to a free account? Will it happen automatically after the year I got from the KickStarter-like program runs out? Also being able to follow a maximum of 40 people sounds like a feature, not a bug.


The pledge was for $50. In October, the annual fee was lowered to $36. As a result, current members received 5 extra months on top of the first year. By the time your credit is up, in February or March 2014, I'm sure you'll be able to change your account to a free plan.

http://blog.app.net/2012/10/01/app-net-pricing-changes/?utm_...


I'm sorry, all of the replies on HN begging for invites are kind of annoying.


If you have enough karma for that, downvote all of them.


I did.


First they charge for it.

Then they make it free.

Then they die.


Seems like a move to inject some momentum into a stalled growth.


In the MMORPG world, even handing out free trials, let alone going free to play, is often a sign that a game that's dying. It's a last-ditch effort to keep things going for a few more months.


I think that's the wrong way of going about what they're offering. Either they're lying in that blog post (which would be very disingenuous to the people who pay them to operate, the users), or they legitimately had an idea of a free model with benefits added on and wanted to get some buffer cash before going that way.

Everyone saw the writing on the wall about growth when it launched, and the best solution to drive new users (and encourage them to upgrade) is to offer a service at a model that allows them to "get their feet wet" without signing up with a credit card.


Well I don't think it's dying. This is the sign of a bigger pivot (the free tier being a smaller one) coming up. Given their track record I think this might turn into something more along the lines of google plus.


Is World of Warcraft dying? They've been handing out free trials for many years now.


It's not always a bad sign, as both WoW & EVE Online have trials and are both running quite strong. In most cases, however, unless the game was launched with free trials/F2P in their business model, it's a sign that they're struggling to get/retain users.


Well, App.Net was launched with two Freemium services (GitHub and Dropbox) as their model for a successful service. I have no reason to disbelieve Dalton when he says Freemium was always the plan, especially since ADN users have been clamoring for a free tier pretty much since day 1.


Slowly yes... But they still have a massive money cow.


So remember this: at its core, App.net is an ad-free, subscription-based platform, a backbone, a dialtone. [1]

I had to go back and find that to make sure I wasn't misremembering. If the free tier includes a cap on the number of people you can follow, has the "we're not just a pay twitter" angle been abandoned?

[1] http://blog.app.net/2012/08/


I have given more downvotes in this story comment section than in my whole Hacker News history.


Yep, me too.


Anyone see the 40 people limit as a problem with this working? I would think limiting connections would limit the usefulness of the service, leading free users to dismiss ADN.

I would like to see ADN become a fully armed and op.. err fully sustainable service (I paid up when they started), but I'm wondering if they should have went further with the free tier.


For a lot of people, the only ADN functionality they really care about is that which replicates Twitter. How do you provide a free tier to these people that doesn't remove any incentive to go paid? Limiting the number of people you can follow seems like a great way to do this.


I'm interested to see what uses people come up with for ADN's storage. If there are some neat uses, that could be a great incentive.

I don't disagree with the limit providing a great incentive to go paid, but when a free user joins, there is a point where the user decides this service is neat/useful enough that he wants to pay for it. I wonder if this limit might hinder people reaching that point.


If anything, it gives incentive to follow only people you truly care about instead of the "everybody follow everybody" model Twitter has. Probably a lot less people willing to follow companies and more following users & interacting with a smaller pool of them.


Free as in falling.


Glad to see this. I really liked playing around with their API and even wrote a SMS <-> App.Net gateway client thing (https://github.com/Ell/appdotnet-sms/blob/master/app.py)


For those wanting to jump onto App.net backstitch (http://backstit.ch) has over 100 invites to give out.


Verified. Send a request to their twitter @backstitchapp


We are sending them out as quick as we can! :)


I can confirm that. Thanks for the instant access.


No problem! I am excited to see more people talking on App.net


Trying backstitch now. So far it just seems to make the internet more boring.


App.net was a great refuge away from all the spammers, and I'm totally happy to pay to keep them out. Very disappointed in this change of policy.


You still shouldn't get spammers - if all of a paid member's invites go to people who get blacklisted as spammers shortly afterwards, that member shouldn't get any more invites to offer.


When do we deem the App.net experiment a failure?


If it's an experiment it's neither a success nor failure. It's just a data point.


I thought that the paywall was supposed to keep degenerates like me away from those cliques that formed during the early years of the term "blogosphere" Wasn't the whole point of this to make you pay to listen to people like Scoble?

The only people who care about platforms are people like us. The average user doesn't care about App.Net being a "more civilized" Twitter.


So this starts a new business model: app.net apps and their paid users prostituting for customers/followers with an invite?


I haven't followed app.net too closely, but was that fact that "[...] [they] initially conceived of App.net as a freemium service" a secret at all? From the tone of the comments so far, it's like this entire thing is a surprise.


Can the new (free tier) members also invite other people?


If anyone is still interested in invites, backstitch (http://backstit.ch) still has a bunch to hand out.


I would love an invite jm[at]iesta.com Thanks :)


The paid angle was the only reason I never bothered with app.net. Seems like I need to ask around for invites now. :)

Anybody got one?


If this account gets an invite lovamova&#64;gmail.com, I think I don't visit HN daily for nothing.


Anyone with remaining invites, It'd be great if you could hook me up with one: sam(at)blork.co.uk


If anyone has an extra invite, would love to have one please: ootz0rz+hn@gmail.com


[deleted]


add me to the list chadvscira [at] gmail


Any more invites floating around? I'd love to have one :)

silentreign at gmail.com


I can invite three people.

edit: All gone.


[deleted]


Just sent out the last one. Sorry!


Can you send me one? pasupalaks at gmail


Me please: me@tylermauthe.com


Invited.


Thanks! :)


Thanks:).


peter dot hnusername at gmail. Thank you.


Thanks:)


Would love an invite if anyone has any left. My name at gmail!


I would love an invite. josiahdthomas [at] gmail [dot] com


I WOULD LOVE AN INVITE!!! matt [at] ingrouille [dot] net


Sent you one


Any spare invite for dmalenko @ gmail.com, please?


If you want an invite follow me on app.net.


I'll be happy to follow if you invite me :) Email in profile.


Hopping on the begging train: gatesphere [at] gmail.

Thanks!


wow lots of people got invited. If anyone til got a spare invite, please send me [at] tuananh.us .Thanks a bunch.


If anyone still wants an invite, I've got 3 available. Just send your email address to appdotnetinvite@indy.io


[deleted]


I would love one as well, if that's at all possible. email address is publicfig@gmail.com.

Edit: Thanks!


I sent you an invite.


What's your email address?


got it, thanks :)


Let me try some reverse psychology: No one send me an invite at adamnemecek(shift+2)gmail.com.


no invite sent!


would love an invite if anyone has an extra! nealpgardner at gmail


I do have some invites, email me at appetizer@instadesk-app.com first come, first serve :)


I emailed to request one. If you're out, thanks anyway!

Edit - got it, thanks a million!


I'd appreciate an invite if anybody has one to share: chmacnaughton [at] gmail [dot] com


if anyone has an invite left, kmlymi (at) gmail.com please.


I wouldn't mind an invite if someone has one going: daniel.samuels1@gmail.com


Joining in the crowd...anyone else have an invite? calvin [at] selectout.org


could you give me invitation, thanks, hsj717#126.com,


Would love an invite to app.net please, ronalds.vilcins@gmail.com


Can someone invite me, please? ronalds.vilcins [at] gmail.com


invite plz wilcut.matthew at gmail dot com


I would love an invite. My email is csmeder (gmail.com)


Can someone spare me an invite? arturtsurkan@gmail.com


Can I've an invite please? peteris.krumins@gmail.com


Sent you one courtesy of backstitch!


Me too. dan@mdpatrick.com


Sent you an invite!


Could I get one too? mcochran [_at_] linux.com


can you sent me too? ronalds.vilcins [at] gmail.com :)


Sent!


thanks!


Invite please? igfgt1 [at] gmail [dot] com


Would love an invite! :)

gaurav [at] dadhania [dot] in


Anyone got an invite?

mcantelon at gm ail dot com


[deleted]


sent!


thanks!


would love an invite please, me@tylermauthe.com



invite please? :)


email me for an invite: josh@dreamsha.re


those went fast! all out people


The second that App.net was announced and I saw the prices, I was out. You don't pay money to develop for a service that only developers are using.

The price was extremely high in comparison to what it offered: Sure, Apple charges to develop for iOS, but iOS has a few hundred million credit-card enabled customers buying software. App.net had a bunch of already-paid developers using the service.

I tried to figure out the point through a few emails with the creator but ultimately it felt like a service for developers flush with spending money to join a sort of app vanity press.

I'm glad that it's opening up now and I'm suddenly starting to get interested in the project!


Meh, App.net always seemed to me like an elite club of rich Twitter haters...

Like by having an account you're saying, hey, I'm rich enough to spend $5/month just because I don't like a company.

Give it to charity for goodness sake.


There are a lot of users & developers who've been burned in the past by Twitter's moves, one way or another. The problem with requiring cash is that it does very little to encourage people to try on the service without being committed to it.

By moving to this free (with 40 people followed) model, they can allow users to try and thus get more that are likely to upgrade to the higher tier when they want more.

Developers (like @falcon_android) that have hit Twitter's token limit are also getting encouragement to move or support it - as it's not a small subset but a very large one of people who can use the service.


App.net is not open source. Developers are building on top of a proprietary system and could get burned again.


This is entirely true, but App.net's model relies on a healthy third party app ecosystem to drive new users & keep existing ones. The Twitter API limitations aren't a point that can be paid for or anything of the sort. As far as we've seen, once a client hits the magical 100,000 token limit, no client has come out of the process with more tokens.


You could have said the exact same thing about Twitter years ago.


100,000 user cap sucks, but is it possible on App.net to get 100,000 using your app?


Meh, Github always seemed to me like an elite club of rich Bitbucket haters...

Like by having an account you're saying, hey, I'm rich enough to spend $7/mo just because I like a pretty UI.

Give it to charity for goodness sake.


I pay for Github because the few private repositories I have benefit from Github's frequently expanding feature set and make it worth the cash I pay each month easily. I think it's worth it to support a service with an iteration cycle that actively benefits its users to the point where paying for it is worth it.


I feel the same about App.Net. They're constantly coming out with new things, such as the hugely-more-powerful-than-Twitter Messages API and the Files API, and they're enabling devs to build apps for ADN that are significantly better than the offerings for Twitter. All in all, I enjoy using ADN far more than I do Twitter, to the extent that it's worth paying for.


Bitbucket's free private repositories is a godsend to academic and other small-time projects. Github can keep their hold on "public code repos as social networking".


You do realize Github offers educational discounts and accounts? See: https://github.com/edu


GitHub offers free private repos for academia.


Github offers five, whilst Bitbucket offers what is in essence an unlimited account to academic users.


If you got the same value proposition out of App.net that you get from GitHub (plus the whole networking effects) that would be true.

But you get what out of App.net? Basically nothing.


I prefer Twitter over App.net. So far there isn't any reason for me to switch. I have no complaints, so I have no need for a competing service.

Anyone else out there feel the same way? App.net's environment seems hostile (like following only up to 40 people), compared to the friendly environment and user experience with Twitter.


No complaints? The sponsored tweets haven't annoyed you yet? The inability to use some twitter clients because Twitter refuses to give out more licenses hasn't annoyed you yet?

I use Twitter a lot, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't jump at the first chance of a real alternative.


I haven't found the sponsored tweets annoying at all. I mostly don't even notice them. I scan my feed and I only pay attention to the tweets which interest me. Everything else could be an ad as far as I'm concerned.

The number of sponsored ads don't seem high enough to make me feel like it's annoying.

As for Twitter clients. Eh, not sure I care so much. I just need a decent client which doesn't suck.

I think their recent decision sort of suck but as a user I don't know that I care too much.


This is exactly how the normal consumers look at these things. Outside of my tech life, no one cares at all.

They just joined Twitter, years after it was launched, because they wanted to see what interesting people & celebs were saying. Heck, the probably even heard about Twitter from an advert or some sort of marketing material, so adverts within Twitter won't bother them/me.


Yes, the (few) sponsored ads seem no different than any other tweet you wouldn't care about anyway. I for one am quite accustomed to sifting through things this way, the ads don't seem like much of an extra burden, at least to me.


I feel like we as nerds should think in the long term.

Communication should be controlled by the users. Think about all the companies who were screwed over by Facebook's "Likegate." Decentralization is why I prefer Tent and IRC. App.net seems acceptable as well because of the open nature, though it is centralized.


How's it open? People keep saying that but there's nothing open about it except the creators keep saying it's open.


FYI: They don't show up in the Twitter's OSX app, and neither on their Windows Phone integration or their official WP app.


No ;)

Obviously you are not alone in liking Twitter, but seriously, no reason whatsoever?

I don't doubt what you say. I just find it astonishing that Twitter behavior and service has been such an absolute match for you.


Well I'm sure that plenty could be done to improve Twitter, but I'd ask whether app.net does any of those things. Last time I looked it is pretty much exactly the same.


Thats exactly how I feel as well. I would pay for a social network if it created a new/better experience for me, but App.net is a twitter clone. What can I do on app.net that I cant do on twitter? What part of the experience do they beat Twitter on?

App.net also hasnt been successful enough to attract the majority of people I follow on Twitter. So their value proposition for me looks like this: Im paying for something that looks, functions, and feels like Twitter without the people to follow to create that content.


> What can I do on app.net that I cant do on twitter? What part of the experience do they beat Twitter on?

Build or use your own app without worrying about hitting a token/user limit.


That's a limitation for people who build apps, not for the users. And it's not even that, it's a limitation for people who build apps and expect to scale them quite a bit, which, given the crowded space, doesn't really happen by accident.

This has pretty much no influence on users. It might slower the innovation a bit, but it's not like there's much innovation happening there to begin with..


But Im not planning on building my own app. So the value I get for paying 50/year is empowering app developers?


I also said use. The primary thing I dislike about Twitter is that they now limit apps to 100K tokens. This past weekend Falcon Pro, the Twitter client I use, reached the limit and is now unable to offer it to additional users.

This also impacts me as a user because the official Twitter apps have special privileges that third party apps do not. I believe this is why third party apps do not support push notifications.


So now you have your own app with which you can follow nobody.


Would anyone be able to spare an invite?

kwildfeuer@me.com


I'd love an invite as well (yeri@tiete.be).

Cheers.


Would love an invite :) john dot luxford at gmail


sent


Thanks!


I have 3 invites. First people to answer these questions correctly gets one (only answer one question):

* What is the integral of "x + 2"?

* How would you implement coroutines with continuations? (Just a very brief description is fine) (edit, if nobody answers this in a few min I'll just invite people)

* What is memoization?


You can implement coroutines with continuations with two functions:

    def resume
      callcc do |cc|
        $current = self
        @caller = cc
        @resumer.call
      end
    end
    
    def self.yield
      callcc do |cc|
        $current.resumer = cc
        $current.caller.call(cc)
      end
    end
`resume` (on a coro) will store what coroutine we're entering (globally) and the caller-continuation (so we know where to go to after Coro.yield). It will then invoke the `resumer`-continuation. `Coro.yield` will store the `resumer`-continuation on the coro (so we know where to go to after `.resume`).

You need something to kick it off though. The simplest way is probably to use `(@resumer || @code).call`.


Nice! I've already given my invites away though, sorry :(


In CoffeeScipt-flavored pseudocode, I'd say

    memoize (f): ->
        cache = { }
        () ->
            h = hash arguments
            cache [h] ? (cache [h] = (f arguments))
And my email would be my username at most popular email service dot com.


I don't know CoffeeScript too well, but reading as pseudo-code looks good.

What email do you want me to use?


Just added--

My email would be my username at most popular email service dot com.

Thanks.


sent!


Just received it, thank you.


memoization, basically remember the results of methods that have a particular parameter values. so it does not actually execute the method it retrieves the remembered value


I still have 1 invite so if you give me your email I'll give it to you.


IOW, memoization is a pretentious way of saying result caching.


1/2(x^2) + 2x + c


You replied 3rd and this was already answered, but I don't think anyone is going to answer the continuation question.

So I'll give it to you. What email do you want?


I would love to try my luck :) Or a charity for my cause :) Mohsen@ozaibi.com Me@ozident.com Hope it's not too much to ask :) Cheers


richard.mallender@gmail.com. Thanks


x^2/2 + 2x + C


What email do you want? :D


emailed it to you




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