Hacker News new | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit login
Rejection Therapy: A Hundred Days of 'No' (businessweek.com)
95 points by eplanit on Jan 10, 2013 | hide | past | favorite | 43 comments



This is great - I've tried an (easier) offshoot of this idea a while back and it resulted in a lot of personal growth.

I tasked myself with taking a portrait of a stranger every day. It was terrifying to start with, walking up to complete strangers and asking to take a picture of them, and it took me 1-2h each day before finding the picture. By the time I wrapped up the project I took that down to 30 min, and didn't even break a sweat. My rejection rate also went way, way down, and I was able to get much better pictures than the "man, this is awwwwwkward" images from the beginning of the project.

The one thing to note though, is that (at least for me) the effects of this kind of "therapy" aren't permanent. Once you take away the regular stimulus of putting yourself out there, you fall back into your normal steady state.


This may seem like a detail, but do you ask people "hey can I take a picture with you for this project I'm doing on getting pictures with other people", or do you just ask "hey can I take a picture with you"? Maybe you've tried both - does one work better over the other?


The former. This is also why I think my project was substantially easier than what's in the article - when you're doing the same thing everyday you get a lot of feedback as to what works and what doesn't.

There are also a lot of other cues that determine how likely someone is to say yes, and if so, how awkward they will be. After a while you learn to spot people who (due to typical Seattle politeness) will probably say yes, but be uncomfortable in doing so. I ended up avoiding them for the most part.


I think your project was also easier because of how you approached it, not just the fact that you did the same thing each day. When you say "hey can you take a picture with me for a project" you're giving people a reason for the request and they have this sort of understanding. They may still wonder what the project is and think it's weird but that small detail makes all the difference to me. Now if you were to approach people and say "Can I take a picture with you?" and leave it at that then I'm willing to bet the "no" rate would go up, it would be more challenging, and maybe the tolerance to rejection would be a bit better.

I don't want to sound like I'm knocking your method because I'm not and lord knows I'm in need of some serious rejection therapy too and haven't done anything close to what you did. I think that's a pretty cool project and I might try it except I won't tell people why I'm asking the question.


> "They may still wonder what the project is and think it's weird but that small detail makes all the difference to me."

It absolutely does. That said, the guy in the article could also very much say something like "I have a personal project where I make an outlandish request every day" and probably gotten more "yes"es.

It's all in the intent - I wasn't out there strictly to get rejected, I was out there to take some cool pictures for a project, and learn a few things about cold-approaching people and handling failure. It wasn't intended as rejection therapy, though it did seem like that in the beginning ;)


In a similar vein, I'm assuming you carried around an SLR with a nice lens, which lends a bit of credibility (it's a substantial barrier to entry). Personally I wouldn't think twice about letting myself be photographed by a guy with a D300 who said it was for a portfolio or a project.


You would think so, but not really. Most lay people can't differentiate between an entry-level DSLR (like the D5100 or a Rebel) and a pro DSLR like a D800 or 5D. What they do know is that just about anyone has a DSLR these days, so the mere act of having a DSLR lends generally little credibility.

The camera is capable of lending credibility though, you just have to step way outside of what people normally see on the streets. In my case the project was done with the Yashica Mat 124G and later the Hasselblad 500C/M. I do believe this has led to a lot more "yeses" than I would've gotten with a DSLR, especially since most images are shot around downtown Seattle where there is no shortage of DSLR-toting tourists.


I just looked on eBay, acquiring a medium-format body is pretty affordable. To hijack the thread a bit, do you have any insights about the TCO of shooting with one? It seems like lenses are still pretty expensive ( double the price of the body, at least ), and I'm guessing film and processing is not cheap.


Yeah, it really depends on where you are and how much DIY you're willing to do. Medium format bodies are pretty cheap, and even Hasselblad lenses aren't that bad on a software engineer's salary ($500-900-ish, unless you've got your sights set on a rare one). It's relatively cheap if you put them next to modern DSLR lenses at the same quality level (for Nikon and Canon, $1300-2000).

In this case, I only ever used two lenses on the Hasselblad - 80mm and 150mm, the 80mm being the "kit" lens and very cheap to find bundled with a used body.

TCO for film cameras is inevitably high - you're working with equipment at least two decades old, if not 3 or 4. In all likelihood nothing will go wrong, but eventually something will, and repair costs are non-trivial. If you want to shoot vintage film cameras you should hunt down some reputable maintenance people online - going to your local camera shop is a good way to pay a lot for shoddy work.

Film is inevitably expensive, with 120 medium format weighing in around $4-6 a roll, at 12 exposures a roll. Not a lot of room to screw up ;) Processing depends on where you live - in Seattle there used to be some inexpensive and good labs, but I believe they have mostly shut down since I moved away. You can "hack" processing for C-41 films in various ways via Walgreens or Wal-Mart. They are incapable of processing medium format in-house but can send it out, and they won't charge extra, though you have little control over quality then.

With black and white you can always develop on your own, but that requires a bit of willingness to DIY.


Would it be a bad idea to buy a digital back on e.g. ebay? Then you could skip the issues with film.


Depends on how much money you have to burn ;) There's also a crop factor issue when using digital backs, since they aren't the same size as the original film.

If you have a lot of money to burn, the latest gen digital backs are close enough to 6x4.5 that the crop factor is fairly insignificant. Older digital backs aren't even close, so you're shooting a substantial crop from the original intended image.

There is no such thing as a 6x6 sensor, unfortunately.


Ah, I didn't realize this about the cropping. I guess I'll have to wait for these new less-cropped backs to be three or four generations old then. :)

I'm still hoping someone makes a practical large format back at some point.


I don't know if it's terribly hipster, but I'm interested in the experience of shooting on film, as much as the hardware. I don't get to do it often, but I find I shoot much more methodically when I have to count my shots, and I don't end up with a million bracketed shots of the same boring thing that I thought might be cool. Obviously there are spray-and-pray film photographers, but when I want that experience, I grab my DLSR.


"Beyond Portraiture" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004NNUYEW) is a good book that explains the specific process of getting strangers to agree to have their picture taken.

I have tried the techniques in the book successfully but never went the full length of getting anyone to sign a release form. Did you?

The pictures from this project on your blog are great! What software did you use for the gallery? It works nicely (although it's a little slow?)


Looks to be http://galleria.io


A very old version of it, yes. I had to hack a few features into it that, at the time, didn't exist yet: modifying browser URL so you can link to a specific picture, and a custom Flickr plugin since it all draws from collections in my Flickr account.

I really should update.


It helps you learn how to socially interact, and more so feel confident with engaging. You learn how to socialize, and won't be giving off strange signals to people that will highlight that you're a stranger to them / potentially harmful.


I completely agree about the removal of the therapy.

Five years ago I worked fine dining as a server: I could talk to anyone about anything.

Now I work in a cubicle with minimal interaction. I am a social recluse: if I go to a bar, I bring a book.

About to start hard-selling one-to-one my software. A little nerve-wracking. Just took a trip to Baja with no spanish language skills. That's made me feel a lot better about my capacity to just "get out there".


Did you do anything with the pictures, like post them online? Were men or women more likely to agree?


The project is online. A little digging from [potatolicious's profile](http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=potatolicious) leads you to Jerry Wong's [365 Portraits of Strangers](http://jerrywong.net/photo/?s=72157626695085276).


Slightly off topic but I enjoyed this and it is a great example of self promotion, something a lot of people here are interested in:

The most recent video on Jia's site is of him asking to race someone. He walks up to a high schooler and his personal trainer explains himself and asks to race one of them. As soon as Jia mentions he is a blogger the trainer without making a direct reference to it casually unzips his jacket to reveal a sweatshirt with the name and logo of his company on it.

It tickled me and made me strangely proud that now because of this man's quick opportune thinking and the happenstance that someone decided to write an article about Jia, likely thousands more people than have ever before will click through and visit http://rwa-texas.com/ .


This seems like a really useful, proactive approach to getting over your hangups and learning to just ask for what you want (I've had people ask me for some pretty crazy things a couple of times, and I'm sure they were surprised when I actually said yes).

Given that some of us are less creative than others and aren't particularly interested in repeating the same handful of things mentioned in the article a dozen times each, do any of the fine, good-looking folks of Hacker News any additional suggestions? Would anyone else be interested in undertaking the same challenge?


In college -- we had this friend, let's call him Jason.

Jason, despite average looks and wit would literally talk to any girl who would even make eye contact with him. He'd get right into it, chatting about this and that, using the dumbest pickup lines. His intentions were almost always to just get a number so he wasn't that creepy. He was fearless when it came to walking right up to a girl and just trying to get them to talk to him, no matter how many times they'd ignore him, tease him, etc. A lot of people enjoyed his confidence. He truthfully didn't come across as a jerk or anything, so anyone that would give him a few moments, might end up enjoying at least the conversation, if nothing else.

I remember chatting with him about it after a few nights out, and he just said how quickly he learned to get over rejection after just experiencing it; making the point that it really wasn't THAT bad, almost making a joke out of it. And truth be told, by the end of college, I am pretty convinced he ended up with more numbers in his phone than any of us other guys combined, for whatever that's worth.


Ideas for this are everywhere and I plan to undertake this challenge too. I don't think it requires much creativity at all. Here are some things I thought of off the top of my head:

At Work:

- Ask a random coworker to lunch

- Ask for a raise

- Ask for a random day off

- Ask for a new chair

On the street:

- Ask any girl (or guy, or whatever your preference is) to coffee

- Ask people to take a photo of them doing a specific thing (same each day or change it up but it just can't be a photo of them anywhere doing anything)

- Ask people for a dollar

- Ask a homeless person to borrow a quarter

Other:

I just ran out of ideas. But they're everywhere. I think the problem might be that we have the ideas but don't want them to come out because we're still shy or afraid to even think of a situation where there's a chance of rejection.


This is interesting! I'm inspired to do the same (videotaping) to promote my dating website http://www.ngajakjalan.com (for Indonesians). Like, I talk to random girls I meet on the street (or shopping complex).

Some questions for those who have tried this kind of thing:

1. Obviously you should conceal your camera. Any suggestion on how to do this? I'm thinking of using my iPod's camera. Put in my shirt's pocket while the camera is on with the lens facing forward? Or use special camera for this purpose?

2. Is it legal to record and publish it on YouTube? How to make it legal? Blur the person's face?


Errr - that sounds a bit creepy to me.


Maybe simply record the audio only


A lot of these requests, if fulfilled, would get the person who granted it in trouble with their jobs, and I'm sure a lot of the requests make the target uncomfortable. This is perilously close to "Being an Asshole Therapy."


I don't think it's being an asshole; the flip side of getting used to hearing 'no' is getting used to saying 'no'. People like the security guard he asked for $100 are probably pretty used to it. Maybe not so much the guy whose house he played soccer at, but he had a 'home field' advantage, in that he was safely in his house. In general it seems like he approached people when they were in a comfortable place, so he was at a disadvantage.

As someone who worked retail for a number of years, unless the store was packed with people I wouldn't have flat-out refused him a weird request, I probably just would've escalated it. Touring warehouses is unlikely, though, because of health and safety restrictions. But the doughnuts one is perfectly reasonable even without asking a manager.

You probably ask people for things every day that make them uncomfortable. Getting used to that sort of repulsed reaction is probably harder than dealing with the actual 'no', so I think it's an important part of the project.



The actual game Rejection Therapy is here: http://rejectiontherapy.com and the rules (well, rule... there is only one) is here: http://rejectiontherapy.com/rules/


This is by the way the startup he works on http://www.hooplus.com according to his site


Guys, I am the blogger in this article. Thank you for your interest in my story. I read YN quite a bit. For those of you who have your investment requests or YC application rejected, just know that I understand your pain. Don't give up and do things that make you stronger. Miracles might happen in rejection.


This is a great talk about Rejection Therapy: http://www.jasonshen.com/tag/rejection-therapy/ You'd be surprised to learn how much you can get by simply asking!


I dont understand how this is any kind of therapy. If anything all the rejections should make you more adverse to going up and talking to strangers


Not really. Most people's aversion to things with rejection potential come from unfounded fears of rejection. They believe that rejection will be far worse than it is, have shame-related issues with rejection, and so on.

Concentratedly going out and asking people for stuff is a great way to a) prove to yourself that rejection isn't all that bad and b) prove that sometimes (often) you won't get rejected at all.


Have you actually done it at all?


Not specifically the "rejection therapy" the article talks about, but I've done similar things - such as spending a few solid days cold-calling local businesses and asking them to sponsor a film.

Conditioning works. It works in martial arts - Krav Maga and MMA both have variants on the "stand there and get hit" drill, and it does indeed teach you to be less afraid of being hit. It works in the PUA world, and generally in becoming better at talking to the opposite sex. And it works in rejection therapy. Do something that's likely to get you rejected a lot, do it for a fair while, and you'll come out of it less afraid of doing things that might result in a rejection.


Would he not be better off spending 100 days making his product more fundable?


Financially? Maybe. As a person? Doubt it.


The idea of quitting his job four days before his first child is born and letting his wife support the family for six months is monstrously selfish.

We don't know the details, but that's time that she should be spending with her baby.


Maybe, just maybe, the two adults involved here should have more input on their own family than you, Mr. Random Internet Stranger?


Maybe his wife should have given him the first "no".




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: