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Those are good points, it's not a black and white issue.

I wasn't referring to buying oil however, I was referring to aid, both in terms of charity as well as foreign and domestic intelligence and setting up the entire technological apparatus required to maintain an oppressive regime in the modern day.

There is no ethical argument that can be made that this is anyone other than equivalent to oppressing people yourself.

> And doing think the Saudi government as it is now is the worst thing imaginable?

Worst imaginable? Certainly worse than the bloody alternative you paint, yes. Americans who agree with their own founding principles certainly should think so. The argument in favour of the Saudi regime is that there would be too much violence if the people were not repressed by a totalitarian feudal theocracy? Stability over liberty? Which side you would have been on in the revolutionary war?

You are also completely glossing over the fact that the majority of the anti-american sentiment in the middle east is strongly tied to the fact that the US has military bases in Holy Land specifically to defend a feudal theocracy that oppresses the very people who are angry. No need for the bases if you stop supporting them. It's a few too many CIA backed oppressive regimes to expect things to change overnight but if you actually care about the amount of anti-western hate in the middle east the first step is probably to stop siding with the people oppressing them.

I'm not convinced by the holiest sites in Islam under threat to "western-backed" fighters narrative. They are currently not under threat, but under the literal control of western backed armies. Between the Saudi's and Israel and the current american controlled government in Iraq all major holy sites in Islam (Sunni and Shia) are controlled by American backed powers. "Under threat" would be an improvement.

Also the current policy is unapologetically expansionist, not stonewalling at all.




TL;DR Yes, oppression of people in KSA needs to stop (A). However, drastic (read: US government) actions will hurt US interests (read: recovery and growth) (B). If individuals and corporations (read: we the people) take a more voluntary approach, we work towards A while hopefully avoiding B.

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To be clear, I am not picking sides on this issue (my typos certainly didn't help). I am not at all supporting the status quo, but I do feel as though I need to clarify my argument.

The argument in favour of a Saudi regime is that oil guaranteed at certain supply and at a certain price. Despite the existing speculation of markets and all price volatility, there is this speculation that democracy in the place of the current regime would change the equation in manner that would be detrimental to US interests. In the transition years from the status quo to whatever could follow, this would be true. It may seem like a cop out to just say the problem with everything is oil, but given the recent economic problems we've seen in the news, any disruption in oil supply would pretty much derail anything that's left to be derailed.

I'm on your side with respect to the ethical argument, but you and I aren't the ones being voted in as POTUS or into Congress. They won't do anything that results in political suicide, and restricting technology companies from providing goods and services in KSA would be seen as just that. In short, the US government won't risk American quality of life for the sake of liberty around the world.

Aside: This last point is what really gets people around the world mad: America, a superpower and champion of human rights (according to US government rhetoric anyway), picks and chooses who gets democracy and who doesn't.

If all the US forces left tomorrow, the common people and fundamentalists would not forget the past. For some kind of withdrawal to even start to work, you would need a heartfelt apology of some kind. Otherwise, fundamentalists would just say something like, "they took what they wanted, humiliated us, then they left when we had nothing else to for them to take" irrespective of how true or false said statement is. The beauty of propaganda is that it works irrespective of facts; instead, it just needs some of Stephen Colbert's truthiness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness).

This concept of truthiness also comes back to the "western-backed" fighters narrative. I'm not saying that there are "western-backed" fighters there at the moment. What I am saying is: should the current regime ever disappear, there would be a real likelihood of there being a civil war between people who want freedom and religious fundamentalists who would aspire to something like "Taliban Afghanistan", but even more extreme. In such a civil war, the people fighting for some kind of democracy or republic would be painted as being "western-backed" simply because things like democracy are found in the West. You and I would debunk this right away, but there are few people there who would pick the devil the sort of know than devil they know. Moreso, when said known devil dresses as you do and comes from where you grew up (urban vs. rural all over again). Anyone can be a spin doctor -- anyone.

I will admit that this last paragraph is pure speculation. But someone with sufficient motivation and with stakes in such a conflict would take the time to construct convincing-enough argument that would snowball and absorb bits and pieces of fact and fiction Katamari Damacy style (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katamari_Damacy).

For your last point, I somewhat agree. When the US government has the resources in check, the policy is expansionist. However, the current economic climate that started prior to President Obama taking office in his first term has made it difficult to continue the pace. Right now, it seems more to be in a "let's finish what we started and regroup" state of affairs. Maybe I am preemptive in calling the current pause "stonewalling", but the pause is definitely letting certain people in government have a second look at where the country is and where they want it to be. Whether they decide continue on the current path or do something else remains to be seen. What I do know, is that the longer the current climate of uncertain economic recovery continues, the more attractive a different kind of "grand strategy" for US foreign policy becomes.


Oh yes, I completely understand the political arguments for needing oil guaranteed at a certain supply and a certain price. Hell, a huge percentage of food production depends on cheap and plentiful oil.

Still, even with good practical reasons: ethically indistinguishable from oppressing those people yourself.

> Right now, it seems more to be in a "let's finish what we started and regroup" state of affairs

I agree that's the spin, I'm not convinced that it's actually true. It's confused by the fairly large effects that a shift to drone based war is having but the number of countries that the United States is unofficially at war (remember declared legal wars? how quaint) with is growing, and growing quickly, rather than shrinking. Actions point to a very different foreign policy than the stated one.




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