I'm not actually defending Israel. I'm demonstrating that the practice is not only widespread among nations that the West generally agrees with (Japan, Australia), it is practiced more there than here. And our neighbours here (Egypt) as well. So arguing against Israel on this subject does not put Israel at a moral disadvantage here.
In any case, at least in Israel, the vast, vast majority of those under administrative detention are held for violent acts such as throwing stones, molotov cocktails, etc. There are a few cases in which the authorities have not stated reason, I know this, but that number is in the single digits. Administrative detention is not a violation of Article 9.
I'm not excusing it, I'm putting it in perspective. For what it's worth, I personally am against the whole idea of administrative detention in any country. If a government body detains someone, the reason should be clear and transparent before the arresting officer punches out of his shift.
And your equivalence of administrative detention to the taking of babies hostage and murdering them and their mothers in captivity only reinforces the notion that those who oppose the state of Israel are generally unreasonable and lack the morals which form the basis of a stable, productive Western society.
> at least in Israel, the vast, vast majority of those under administrative detention are held for violent acts such as throwing stones, molotov cocktails, etc
Actually, the vast majority of hostages israel holds, have done nothing at all. Just like the hostages hamas holds.
This is easily demonstrated: show the list of israeli detainees and the fair trials they had to determine if they were, in fact, guilty of the accusations israel unconvincingly levels. Otherwise, if you take the IDF's word for it that their hostage taking is righteous, intellectual honesty requires that you also take hamas' word for it when they say the same thing. Notably, israel kidnapped, raped, and tortured hostages first.
Also, israel has willfully or indiscriminately killed way more babies and mothers than hamas. Surely you view an innocent civilian life as equally valuable regardless of religion, skin color, or national origin? Surely your emotional outrage won't evaporate when the victims are Palestinian?
This is such a gross misrepresentation of not only the Israeli side of events, but even Hamas' own description of events, that I have no idea on what you base your claims. I can't use facts to change your mind when your mindset is not based on facts. And I'm not the right person to get into a no-I'm-right screaming match with. So have a nice day and I'll go have a nice day myself.
> This is such a gross misrepresentation of not only the Israeli side of events, but even Hamas' own description of events, that I have no idea on what you base your claims. I can't use facts to change your mind when your mindset is not based on facts. And I'm not the right person to get into a no-I'm-right screaming match with. So have a nice day and I'll go have a nice day myself.
Your reply to my post does not seem to address anything it said (or indeed, anything of substance), but it is noted that you, 1 person out of billions, disagree very, very strongly with both international and scholarly consensus, which I merely repeated, and which are each individually more authoritative than your opinion. Thank you for your invaluable contribution and have a nice day!
> "And your equivalence of administrative detention to the taking of babies hostage and murdering them and their mothers in captivity "
I did no such thing - I just joined the thread, go lick a battery and calm down.
But seriously, this tactic of hysterically conflating replies in a long, tedious reply to create a straw-man which then becomes the topic is taught to propagandists and zealots the world over.
> only reinforces the notion that those who oppose the state of Israel are generally unreasonable and lack the morals which form the basis of a stable, productive Western society.
I bet most IDF personnel would think that. You really need to disclose this sorta thing before you accuse other people of lacking moral fabric or international perspective.
I would have an honest discussion on-grounds with you about this, because it seems like we're in agreement that the detention is bad. But your (quoted) conclusion is hysterically disproportionate, and does not reflect any opinion you are qualified to tender. Furthermore, the parent is right; you know exactly what I am referring to, admit it is an issue, then pretend that we're the dumb ones when we demand accountability. It is a bad-faith tactic that you are deliberately employing to deflect valid criticism of Israel. So instead of stimulating discussion I will just tell you this, expedite some shit slinging and let you react however you like.
Most of us here are willing to put things in perspective. I'll show some vulnerability, I'm a US citizen. Abu Ghraib turns my stomach, the 1953 coup and the SAVAK files make me appalled. But I also know those aren't the scariest skeletons in the closet, so do you. Neither of us probably want to talk about the lingering consequences of apartheid, or the fact that the US has knowingly supported no fewer than three genocides in the past century (Bangladesh, Rwanda, now Gaza). They're horrible, world-defining revelations. Which is why we both have to look past the phenomena, which tells us they are justifiable, to interact directly with the geist, the actual truth.
As Americans and Israelis, we are partners whether we like it or not. We have the benefit of hindsight (both countries individually!), to admit that empire politics are worthless. 21st century colonialism is pointless. It is a waste of human life, and for what? To subvert a free market economy we're both ultimately at the whims of? If Israel wants to play the long game, my wholly empathetic opinion is that they need international credibility. There is still a road for the Israeli state to persist with international - perhaps even Arab - support. The first step on that road starts by unseating a president who only demands war and resists his corruption charges. Supporting this war is literally killing Israel as a functioning nation, which sickens me, as an American. I'm still advocating for an expedient and fair trial for those prisoners because someone has to care about Israel even if Netenyahu won't.
In any case, at least in Israel, the vast, vast majority of those under administrative detention are held for violent acts such as throwing stones, molotov cocktails, etc. There are a few cases in which the authorities have not stated reason, I know this, but that number is in the single digits. Administrative detention is not a violation of Article 9.
I'm not excusing it, I'm putting it in perspective. For what it's worth, I personally am against the whole idea of administrative detention in any country. If a government body detains someone, the reason should be clear and transparent before the arresting officer punches out of his shift.
And your equivalence of administrative detention to the taking of babies hostage and murdering them and their mothers in captivity only reinforces the notion that those who oppose the state of Israel are generally unreasonable and lack the morals which form the basis of a stable, productive Western society.