I can't imagine a sense of shame that would be more powerful than the knowledge that I spent $32,000, many months of my & my partner's life, and risked dying to be a few cm taller. Definitely one of those things where its baffling to me how people consider it appropriate to mock people for. Imagine someone walking around in public today describing someone as having a "flat chest personality" or how most westerners are very uncomfortable with "skin lightening" as a beauty thing.
The main subject of the article, “Frank”, is already married. This is the part of the article that explains his motivation:
> There were the kids at school who taunted him for his height; a longtime online fan of his artwork who remarked, on meeting him, that Frank was “shorter than I expected”; or the guys who randomly shoved him in the street a few years ago, tearing out his headphones. They wouldn’t have done that to a taller man, he reasons.
I don't understand your comment - what partner are you talking about? These surgeries exist because of the ongoing trend among young women to date tall man only.
Ridicule based on arbitrary and frivolous attributes are shaped by jealousy and the associated urge to eliminate social competition. That's why the highly talented kids (even adults at times) are bullied. Meanwhile, such peer pressure has an awfully powerful influence on emotions and decisions. Both are fundamental human behaviors and they're not going away. The only way to overcome it is to burn some social capital by calling it out and protesting it. If you're lucky, you may even earn some social capital.
> or how most westerners are very uncomfortable with "skin lightening" as a beauty thing
I'm not sure I catch the meaning (due to cultural differences). Could you elaborate?
I’m shorter than Frank, and I never thought it was that much of an impediment, but I wonder if culture has moved to prioritize it even more in dating and careers? Frank had a wife, so it’s interesting how it persists.
I got my arms broken to make them longer. This is not as common, but something I wanted to achieve. Now they are extra-long and look a bit funny, but I'm happy.
Internal in my opinion. Post 30 y/o specially, the dating scene for men becomes increasingly better (by market dynamics of offer/demand). But of course you need a minimum of soft skills to get more hits than misses in the dating game.
My take here is that people like the guy in the article lack the soft skills part but as he has grown up being self-aware of his height, probably blames all short-comings on that.
It would probably be simpler and more effective to do proper gym (better looks and more confidence) than this extreme and painful process.
I would like to hear someone who did the same procedure to hear if things actually got better now that they are taller.
The height factor is definitely a thing. Of course you can (or: have to) counterbalance it with other aspects but the sheer awareness that for some (substantial) population of young women you are disqualified form the start can be depressing.
life has gotten easy enough that we're starting to value unimportant bullshit like height over the ability to make society function. go to any non-western country. height still matters but personality, integrity and intelligence is enough to get you ahead in the dating market.
I'm not a short guy, but I think it's unfair. Short guys are stereotyped with a particular personality, but the same buckets exist for women with other unpopular traits.
I think men are being increasingly disenfranchised of the qualities that made them attractive. I think it's sad that people are reaching for surgery but I don't judge them.
The thing with therapy is that it works well if the problem is an imaginary one or from the past. But it's only a band-aid coping mechanism against ongoing real-life problems. Body shaming and judgement are ongoing real-life problems. It's not hard to find videos of men being judged by their height. These problems can't just be hand waved away with suggestions of therapy. Besides if you read the article, it does mention a female patient as well. So it's clearly not a man problem or a therapy problem. It's a society problem.
I must point this out. Many here on HN are getting too comfortable with being judgemental against men.
The point goku12 was making was that the videos are evidence that such discrimination exists in the real world, not that the videos themselves are the only problem.
Oh! It very much is! They're people on the streets. And even if you decide to neglect it, others who associate with you may not. And they may end up treating you in exactly the same way as on social media. I have seen real life examples of it. Besides, it's too imprudent to neglect the lessons of the past like how FB was implicated in the genocide of Rohingyas in Myanmar. And if that wasn't bad enough, the latest AI/LLM filter bubble is conspicuously widening the social fractures like the gender wars to an extreme level.
There! This is exactly what I mean. Your solution for all of mens' problems is therapy, instead of dealing with the sexist/judgemental media that are hard to miss unless you take some special measures prescribed by therapists. It's like the proverbial someone with only a hammer.
So let me say this unambiguously - The therapists are not there to clean up the mess that the society insists on inflicting. The first line of defense is to prevent that mess in the first place. Let me demonstrate this with an exaggerated example. Would you say that the solution for SA against women is for them to consult therapists/psychologists after the fact, rather than implementing preventive community measures against SA? Therapy is only for those who couldn't be protected by the preventive measures - in either case.
I'm not seriously affected by such videos, because I have reasons. But I also have reasons to call out such dismissive hand waving. And one of those reasons is the damage to the society it inflicts, exemplified by the article that this discussion itself is based on. The often superfluous advise to 'consult a therapist' is an attempt to lay the blame on men with some imagined mental disorder and thus maintain the status quo that leads to scary and painful situations like men allowing their legs to be broken. For that matter, are there enough therapists and psychologists around to deal with so many cases? Is the treatment cheap enough for normal people to afford at all?
To be clear, sexism and judgement are not directed only against men. Women and children are also frequently targeted by sexist bullying. I have seen a documentary on women being shamed into doing something similarly horrific, and wondered why anyone would fill them with such insecurity. I have read in horror, the stories of teenagers being bullied into killing themselves. I really do have empathy for all of them. But the solution is clear and the same - It must be addressed by holding the perpetrators accountable. But when it comes to the same against men, the society overwhelmingly tends to take a very dismissive, unsympathetic and outright hostile stance, choosing to blame men instead of introspecting. The casual double standards at display is deeply unsettling. But such selective protections won't harm just the ones being left out. It will bleed over to those who're being protected as well. And I can see clear indications of an entire generation suffering emotionally for it - no exceptions by gender.
>Your solution for all of mens' problems is therapy
What I said was: You can choose not to watch the videos. Social media is optional.
> I have seen a documentary on women being shamed into doing something similarly horrific, and wondered why anyone would fill them with such insecurity. I have read in horror, the stories of teenagers being bullied into killing themselves.
Women should also log off. Parents need to moderate kids access to social media also.
> Therapists can give you tools and strategies to avoid watching social media videos.
Suggestion of therapy is widely misused these days to deflect attention and accountability from the fundamental issue - sexist rhetoric, misandry especially.
> What I said was: You can choose not to watch the videos. Social media is optional.
Social media is not optional in practice. It won't stop affecting you just because you abandon it. Others in your circle are influenced by them. The rhetoric is already instigating incidence of DV, assaults, false accusations and public humiliation. It's no longer just 'annoying'. Inaction, passive measures and shifting the responsibility on to potential victims (like therapy) are not going to cut it anymore.
The minimum remedy is a mass campaign that treats them like propaganda inciting violence. Those responsible for it must be called out and held accountable (somehow, this is non-controversial when it's about misogyny). Moral-shaming ad campaigns must be expanded to cover all forms of sexism (consistency and integrity aren't exactly their forte). But I doubt even that will stop it. Many corporate, mainstream media, international institutions and governments actively promote it. They wont abandon the malevolence without massive repercussions.
> Women should also log off. Parents need to moderate kids access to social media also.
While I agree, that ship has sailed long ago, I'm afraid. Social media has invaded the foundations of real-life social networks. Network effects and peer pressure make it nearly impossible to dislodge it from there. A lot of innocent lives will be ruined or lost if you wait for that to happen - if ever.
Men who get told they need therapy should save the time and money and go to the gym and lift weights, take up fishing, do something that requires active engagement and responsibility.
Every man I've known who's gone to "therapy" just ends up with a prescription for some pharmaceutical that they can't ever get off of.
The effect sizes for antidepressants and therapy are comparable to the effect sizes for exercise and diet when it comes to relieving depression. There's a reasonable argument that someone with depression who goes to therapy but doesn't exercise has a similar problem as a depressed gymbro who goes to the gym but doesn't attend therapy.
>just ends up with a prescription for some pharmaceutical that they can't ever get off of.
"Just"
Man it took me like 15 years to get my pharmaceutical. In terms of quality of life improvement the only thing I regret was not driving a bulldozer through the doctors office 14 years ago and demanding them at gun point. Instead I was forced through a dance of dumb shit like you suggest to prove I actually have a problem. If 10 dipshits promoting stupid wellness shit, and 1 bottle of my meds were in a house fire, I would save my meds.
I would tell you to go to therapy, but basic human decency has to be learned at a much younger age and I dont think you have a chance sadly.
I'm sorry that happened. The last sentence wasn't necessary, and you should edit your comment to delete it. It's not an unusual observation to make, that there exists alternatives to drugs, and making it personal seems to detract from your point, which I think is that there is likely to be some population that doesn't respond to getting in shape, doing healthy leisure activities and so on. This is a pretty anodyne observation that is hard to disagree with. Consider that your response seems to reinforce my point about how "they can't ever get off of [it]".
I can't agree with the 'they can't ever get off of it' part. Newer generations of psychotropic drugs are much more effective and way less dependency inducing than even what was available a decade back. For many illnesses that are caused by life events rather than genetics, those medications are effective at improving the symptoms to a level where they can be weaned off and further management with just the therapy is possible.
And while at it, not everything can be treated with gym or hobbies. They work well for mild to medium severity depressions. But even getting up from bed is nearly impossible for people with high severity depressions, much less attend a gym or go fishing. The doctors usually prescribe the medications till they can manage to do start them. And then there are other conditions for which a healthy lifestyle is simply not the appropriate or effective treatment.
Software engineers paying 75K to get 3 inches taller - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32860250 - Sept 2022 (207 comments)
I wish I was a little bit taller - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32852962 - Sept 2022 (95 comments)
Radical surgery permanently extends your legs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22654609 - March 2020 (65 comments)