Well if you live in southern EU you have, as an example, Worten and Mediamarkt => they both do electronic 'stuff', games, tvs, washers, etc. They are quite comparable, except Worten is Portugese and Mediamarkt is German. And that difference is a huge gap. The staff is Worten, in all branches I have been, and, when I had enough, my friends have been, is downright shit. We are talking girls with braces talking to their boyfriends, not even looking at you, or looking at you annoyed, when you ask anything (which they have no answer to). Mediamarkt, again, all the branches I have been in, the staff is friendly and if they are not and you complain, you get something as compensation. Not so in Worten. They spit in your face and they don't care.
I spend a lot of time in Spain, Germany and Portugal, but I live in the Netherlands and the quality of service in Spain especially is of such a level that in the Netherlands you would be, as a company, on national television every night. It's appalling. Almost every company, especially big ones, don't care at all about customer service. The electrical company in the south, Endesa, just hangs up randomly. They don't have a CRM or anything, just non-caring students who don't know anything about the subject matter and they'll just tell you it's your problem and hang up (after you have waited for 1 hour with shit muzak). Whatever you are complaining about. In the Netherlands, there would be an outcry and it would be fixed (this has happened with UPC, but that was over 10 years ago... and they now lick your feet when you call).
In the average bar it's like a 'tourist attraction' to have the 'angry/shaggy/shitty bar guy'. They usually look like they hate you. And they never saw you. If your Spanish is good enough, you can just pelt them with derogative stuff as they seem to like the insult. But if you come with your family for a vacation, you might not want to verbally fight all the time. Besides some ancient bars in Amsterdam, you would not get away with that in the Netherlands. Your money is tourists; be nice. But no, besides some well trained staff in some hotels/restaurants/bars, the average way to treat someone you never saw is to be shortish or downright hostile to them.
The cases we had in the north (NL/DE) resulted in companies going bankrupt or public outcry; I have seen in Spain/Greece (less in PT so far) that it is very normal to treat people that way. And that doesn't work for people from the north, who are, accidentally, the people who have the cash. So maybe adapt? It'll make life better as well; I don't think being angry works well for your person either.
Having said that; ofcourse there are plenty of exceptions, the village I go to often has very friendly people. Unfortunately those are usually the older people. The younger generation is fat and spoiled and angry. Why? The news probably? Hearing every day your country is going under is not stimulating while the older generation lived with Franco / Salazar and know that this is the best they every had.
Edit: I know about southern Spain; Andalusia, so the comments I make are about that region of the country. I love that place and I'll die there, but it's something different if you are used to the north of EU.
Service culture can change relatively fast with the right catalysts, which include better management and getting people more involved. The UK used to have terrible service (Fawlty Towers was based on real life), but has got much better. Immigration helped a lot though...
Southern Europe is going to have to change a lot, fast. It is a huge opportunity if done right, but people dont even understand whats going on fully yet.
«Manuel, a waiter played by Andrew Sachs, is a well-meaning but disorganised and confused Spaniard from Barcelona with a poor grasp of the English language and customs.»
In the Spainsh translation of Fawlty Towers Manuel was Italian (that way us, poor Spaniards, will not be embarrassed by watching one of us strugling xD) and I suspect that in other countries they changed his nationality too.
Everybody hates Endesa. In Spain is highly probable that when someone takes your call to a company he/she will be in South America ;)
And about Spanish companies and how they treat their customers, I'm with you. This is ingrained in many mediterranean countries: no ones got rich doing hard work or through a strong work ethic. You can only get rich stealing, abusing and lying. The rate of people who evades taxes is so high that in countries like Greece it's seen as normal. In fact in Greece you are a malakas («stupid/loser» yet the literal translation is «wanker») if you paid all your taxes.
Long time ago, as a kid, my uncle took me to a soccer match in the Santiago Bernabeu. I've never liked soccer, so I spent much more time looking at people than the game. When the game ended, lots of people were red-faced, incredibly angry, neck veins sticking out, shouting all sorts of rude and terrible stuff at the ref. I was scared, I thought they would riot, jump the fences and kill him or something. As soon as he disappeared from sight, everyone relaxed and smiled, laughed to each other and said things to the effect of "that'll teach him."
In Spain most people are more preoccupied with being seen complaining than with doing something about that which they complain about.
Curiously my answer (I don't know if it's THE answer) is that Spanish people do not like conflict. We don't have class actions as in other countries and people are not used to claim for their rights against big companies. I think we still need a bit of this crazy david-vs-goliath mindset I've seen in other countries where people fight big injustices to the death.
The Spaniard is too preoccupied about what the other will think of him if he makes something... abnormal, which here means anything that will distinguish you from your neighbors . Spanish society is very very alienating and this is why so many foreigners find it so close and unfriendly to people from other cultures.
I have noticed that. So it might be a part of the problem. But in NL we don't have class action suits either; you can sue but you'll never win much if anything and it'll just cost you money. I think the Dutch were just fed up when the whole UPC thing happened. I don't even think they know what they did for consumer support for big companies in NL. When I call someone from Nuon (electricity) or internet (XS4all, UPC, Ziggo) or something else, they ask me if i'm ok, if i need more, would I like discounts and such. If I do get a rude person, I ask for their complaints service and as their is always a 'superior' listening in, this escalates fast. Usually ends in a discount of some sort and an apologetic mail. I don't need that; i'm not made of sugar. But I would just like people treating me like I'm paying them for something.
For UPC it was the national press who did it; they kept publishing horror story after horror story and after a while it started hurting the bottom line.
There was no Twitter and such yet; now it goes much faster. I'm surprised how little effect it has in Spain though; I had companies closing their Twitter or Facebook page after complaints and just opening a new one. Not big companies (might work there or don't they do social even? Never checked...), but smaller ones like furniture delivery companies who actually just deleted everything from their facebook page and got another one with happy stories...
That's funny, I've always felt that we Portuguese are more eager to avoid conflicts than the Spaniards, who always seem to be more assertive and self-confident than us.
This even seems (to me) to be mirrored in your politics, where the left-right divide is way more polarised than in Portugal
Oh it's definitely management. There is a great 'beach club' here ran by a guy I know. The first time I met him, he reminded me of a friend from NL. Unlike other 'clubs/bars/etc', this place is insanely good. He does what the others don't do; you get almost american service; everyone is nice, if there is something wrong they'll replace it without even blinking (I know a Thai restaurant on the coast; if you complain about the food, they'll throw you out and you can never return) and they are fast. If they don't deliver in time , your drink is free etc. With standard Spanish waiters, however they are actually trained. What both the Dutch friend and this guy do is the following; in their first place they work day+night to make it work, but after that, the process is 'simple' (it's not but he, you don't become a miljonair that easy); you take the people from the previous place and have them train the new people in that place. Then you take the people you KNOW who are good to the new place and the new people working the 'old place' (it's already a hit so you can have a few mistakes). He stays on top (there EVERY day it's open) for 1 year and then he leaves to open the next one. The staff in all his places is great and he does (surprise surprise) better than all others in this crisis. Places left and right of him are closing and he thrives. It's one of the great examples that it's a) not the people b) tourists want nice, pampering waiters.
> The younger generation is fat and spoiled and angry. Why? The news probably? Hearing every day your country is going under is not stimulating while the older generation lived with Franco / Salazar and know that this is the best they every had.
Way to keep it classy..
The younger generation is not fat, nor spoiled, maybe angry. You just see the most blatant cases, and decide that's the general rule.
If the average bar you were in was like a 'tourist attraction' it was that you just fell in all the tourist traps available. There are plenty of nice places to spend the day (and the night) in Spain.
About the Salazar/Franco line, I do not understand exactly if you are implying the older generation lived through a dictatorship, and now is the best they ever had (since there's no dictator), or you mean things were better during these times.
Where do you live? I live in the montes de Malaga and I travel a lot to the Alpujarra, Cordoba and Ronda. The youth is 'a few kilos' too heavy. If you walk on the beach here the Spanish youth IS fat. It's a HUGE difference from 20 years ago. And their parents buy EVERYTHING for them; a lot of my Spanish friends with kids waste their own life to pay for their +20 year old kids because 'they cannot find a job'. So no, i'm not a tourist and I don't live in or go to tourist traps. Maybe you live in the north of Spain, I have no idea how it is there, nor did I ever pretend to know, I use the word "SOUTH" quite a lot if you didn't notice.
And it was worse during the dictators; old people remember and they tell me.
Edit; Oh and i'm not trying to insult anyone; you can ask my local bar guy; he'll tell you he is a angry sod; he's proud of it. He likes to piss off tourists. He just cannot explain why. Others as well; most are kind of proud of not being nice to tourists. While they know it's their bread.
Being from Málaga, and my wife from Ronda, I can confirm what you say xD.
Well, 'a few kilos' too heavy is not that bad compared with USA people :p. It's all about the change in the customs and the way we eat. Spanish gyms are full of very healthy people, yet running and going to work in bike is still strange in Spain (which is a culture-shock for someone from NL).
And about asking for the past and Franco... Ronda is not representative of Spain!!! ;) (and yes they are still proud of been in the right «band» if you ask in a bar)
The Ni-Nis (translated as "Not working Not studying") are all around Spain, but in Málaga is worse as the unemployment rate there is the nearly the bigger in whole Spain.
It's not that bad compared to some parts of the US no, but it pains me. One of the best vacations I ever had was to Madeira (which is Portugese) many years ago. It was the time when Brasil (and some parts of PT) had metal music in the top-40 a lot and this is what they were playing in disco's. While in NL we had utter crap (depending on taste, i'm telling my story here :) going from 1-40 (or 100 for that matter), on Madeira I stood in a real discotheque with extremely pretty girls (who I only saw in these big discotheques in Amsterdam normally dancing to crap) headbanging to Slayer and Sepultura. I never saw something like that again. In one of the town squares (of Funchal) they had a deadmetal band playing and all these young and old people where standing there watching, not calling it shit, but just looking at it like it was the marching band.
Almost all girls looked amazing (I have pics, I wasn't dreaming ;). Now I went back the odd 20 years later and mostly everyone is overweight. And not 'just a bit'. It's such a contrast. Same for Spain (Andalucia) and I also saw it in Guatamala as well. I'm not condemning this, but I'm referring to the amazing difference here in 'only' 20 years.
This is caused by the change in food prices/availability. Traditional "mediterranean" diet is healthy and didn't cause people to get fat. Now unhealthy food is much cheaper and readily available. People hasn't still learned how to manage the change. Eventually they will... I hope :-)
Also; people moved more. In Malaga I see people driving to the shops at the end of the street. No joke (and i'm not laughing). Some people walk/cycle but the majority is in the car for everything. With the crisis it became less because gas prices jumped up (they are E0.50 higher than a few years ago as you know).
# occurrences of the word "south" on your post[1]: 2
If you were referring to Malaga and Andalucia, it's a different game. Most people often forget Spain is about different cultures living together in the same country, and the southern culture in Spain is kind of special and unique.
For me it's similar as Naples in Italy. Most people that have spent time would say it's a chaos and terrible, but for me it is just too real and vivid to pick on them. I like them as it is.
I don't really know how to express myself better than Larra himself[2] "Vuelva usted mañana". I have tried to find a translation but they do not really work together..
Ok, point taken. In my mind I said it a lot more than I actually did :)
I love Andalucia and if I could I would live there forever. I will retire/die there. Like said; I'm not trying to insult people, I'm just saying how it is here. And it's rather crazy. If you are on a permanent vacation, it's the best, but I've tried doing serious things and it just doesn't work.
My point is that there are bunches of talented people rolling out the CS dep of Malaga uni who scream, every option they get, that there 'are no jobs'. When I provide jobs, they use another excuse not to take them. NiNi's is apparently the word (I heard it before, but it didn't stick, now it will); it's very prevalent and I do not understand it. I have discussions with these guys & girls and over a truckload of rum-cola they understand, but the next day, it's gone.
NiNi is a pejorative word used to refer to people that "Ni estudia Ni trabaja" (do not study, do not work).
I hope this word just stops being used. As a young person from Spain that have studied and is working (and have been since I was 18), that term used in spanish people is terribly insulting.
You seem to be an angry young person :) But you are working and you have studied; so why do you find this insulting? If you are not working and not studying, what are you doing? Why is it not ok to call the problem by it's name? Again, I don't know about the north, but here there are TONS of jobs, just no one takes them, and this NiNi seems to be an apt description of that. Sure, if you actually cannot find a job and you did everything to try to get one, then it's much different. But if you turn down jobs because 'its a 30 minute drive' or 'the contract is only for 1 year' then you are not really a very cool person right? I think that's what this term refers to?
I guess he finds insulting that the term is thrown to every young people "generation nini" as if being of a certain age is synonim of being a slacker.
There are a number of other subtle generalization in your comments to this story that I find moderately annoying, even if (or maybe because) some of your points are true.
I won't go into them in detail, it would be a very long conversation. Just let me say that you're seeing it from an entrepreneur POV, that I bet started your business in your country and then "exported" it to mine and others.
I have zero incentives to waste time swimming crosscurrent. If I find a decent job abroad, I couldn't care less about the country going where it's going anyway.
Ah I did not know it was used in that way. Still, it seems that you both have very long toes. Generalizations often are there because they go for a large part of the population. And things I see happening here is simply something I say out loud. Of course they don't go for everyone and everywhere, but I'm not a hermit, I spend a lot of time with people who live here and have lived here for generations. In the village where I live all but one (yes, all but one) of the guys under 25 are NiNis. And proud of it. Card-carrying NiNis. They seriously ask me why they should work as they get money from the state and their parents; what's the use? I try to explain them things best I can, but (because of dubbing?) their English is bad/non existent and my Spanish is ok for day to day use, but not for deep conversations like this. And usually discussions end in them going 'pffff, that's no reason, I get free money, I don't need work and oh yeah, there is no work anyway'.
I can see you might find it annoying to hear because it might be different in your part of country. As someone said already; Spain is a BIG country with a lot of different cultures, I'm seeing only one up close.
And swimming crosscurrent; isn't packing your bags and moving crosscurrent? It's quite a big step. My point is that there is enough work IN Spain/Portugal if you want it, and although you won't get paid as much as in Germany, you don't live in Germany; prices are simply much lower and you do have all healthcare and such covered. To the extend, if you carefully check, that you can find an insurer and make terms which allow you to go to Germany (or wherever, even the US) if you have something bad. Of course you should get a job abroad if you like it, but only for money it, to me, doesn't make sense.
Still, it seems that you both have very long toes.
I'm 48, so my toes are not specially affected. I simply dislike when a bunch of journalists and pundits with vested interests blame the victims.
Older people have built a dysfunctional society and still the culprits seem to be the newcomers.
'pffff, that's no reason, I get free money, I don't need work and oh yeah, there is no work anyway'
And that, by the way, is exactly true. Why study if, after all the effort, graduates are paid less than unskilled workers? Why, if the important thing is who you know, not what you are capable of? The work thing is even worse, but I get angry only to think about it. Just think who their role models are.
I'm from a town not very far from there, in Cádiz. I had to come to Madrid 16 years ago, because there wasn't virtually any job for me there.
you don't live in Germany; prices are simply much lower
Sorry to be blunt, but you have no idea what you're talking about. Price difference may be significant WRT small villages near Ronda, but it's negligible compared to Madrid. And there is no decent work for a programmer in a village. And even in Madrid salaries are half what you earn in London.
Trust me that cost of living is not nearly double in London than in Madrid. You don't think it makes sense? Ask anyone anywhere if it makes sense for them to go elsewhere and get paid double.
You moved from Cadiz to Madrid for jobs? What do you do if I may be so blunt? Because, as I have been typing in this thread all day; there are tons of jobs in my field (programming) all around here. You just need to be creative in finding them.
There are so many people working 'from home' here as programmer and work is so easy to get it's scary. I don't think you realize how incredibly crap most programmers are and how unreliable they are. To hire a reliable western programmer is something which takes a bit of beating and losing money on crap programmers, but after that you'll have a job for life and you only notice the 'legacy stuff' with the first project (clients will panic every second they don't hear from you but that passes). But it won't be with a contract and such, it will be freelance. I imagine some people are not ok with that. On the other hand, you live only once and in this stint of a life, I would rather live under a bridge than move from Cadiz to Madrid. That's just me of course, but you might not have to depending on what your trade is?
Some unsorted facts: Madrid is a very nice city, four hours from Cádiz by train. I'm a programmer. I have dozens of data points of univesity mates (more than half also moved) and people from my hometown. Please notice that I moved sixteen years ago, situation and myself were not the same, but I guess I would do it again now in a heartbeat.
I worked four years as a freelance some time ago. I wouldn't leave my day job to do it again, maybe would do it on the side. Anyway, I'd rather take a full-time job abroad though (there are flights from London or Dublin daily), and I wouldn't need to deal with customers' bureaucracy, internal fights, and late payments and requirements.
I think that you have many facts right and a passion for what you do. But there are many facts you ignore and tend to arrive to rushed conclusions and some contradictions. Don't take my word for it, just see how many things you find incomprehensible about people's behaviour. That's not a coincidence! :-)
I find it insulting because the word NiNi is just a generalization on young people (as me) that politicians and media is throwing around to make us feel bad, and to portray a group of people that does not represent the majority.
The average age on Spain is 40.5. It's so easy to just say, fuck it, young people is lazy, so let's let the government pass this or these other bigoted rules, or even let a bigoted party rule, because it's the only way they will learn.
I was not saying you are not right (heck, we are in 28.4% of unemployment), I was pointing out that generalizations are incorrect and biased.
PS: I may be angry, because the government decided to increase taxes on self-employed people (with unreasonable numbers), making it harder for me to enjoy working and living here.
That is a reason to be angry; tax increase is needed to 'save Spain', but... What pisses me off is the corruption levels; if I can be assured my tax money goes to better roads, healthcare, stabilizing the economy and so forth, I am happy to pay increases. But i'm not sure of that and I really don't want to pay for the new private helicopter of some gov contractor CEO who happens to be friends with some gov official (and delivers shabby work as cheap as possible).
In the town I used to go to in the Alpujarra (Sierra Nevada) they 'lost' E2 million town hall money. Lost. And what's being done? Nothing. Someone is driving a souped up Veron drunk into a canyon while the children in the village might be losing their school. That makes me angry.
I spend a lot of time in Spain, Germany and Portugal, but I live in the Netherlands and the quality of service in Spain especially is of such a level that in the Netherlands you would be, as a company, on national television every night. It's appalling. Almost every company, especially big ones, don't care at all about customer service. The electrical company in the south, Endesa, just hangs up randomly. They don't have a CRM or anything, just non-caring students who don't know anything about the subject matter and they'll just tell you it's your problem and hang up (after you have waited for 1 hour with shit muzak). Whatever you are complaining about. In the Netherlands, there would be an outcry and it would be fixed (this has happened with UPC, but that was over 10 years ago... and they now lick your feet when you call).
In the average bar it's like a 'tourist attraction' to have the 'angry/shaggy/shitty bar guy'. They usually look like they hate you. And they never saw you. If your Spanish is good enough, you can just pelt them with derogative stuff as they seem to like the insult. But if you come with your family for a vacation, you might not want to verbally fight all the time. Besides some ancient bars in Amsterdam, you would not get away with that in the Netherlands. Your money is tourists; be nice. But no, besides some well trained staff in some hotels/restaurants/bars, the average way to treat someone you never saw is to be shortish or downright hostile to them.
The cases we had in the north (NL/DE) resulted in companies going bankrupt or public outcry; I have seen in Spain/Greece (less in PT so far) that it is very normal to treat people that way. And that doesn't work for people from the north, who are, accidentally, the people who have the cash. So maybe adapt? It'll make life better as well; I don't think being angry works well for your person either.
Having said that; ofcourse there are plenty of exceptions, the village I go to often has very friendly people. Unfortunately those are usually the older people. The younger generation is fat and spoiled and angry. Why? The news probably? Hearing every day your country is going under is not stimulating while the older generation lived with Franco / Salazar and know that this is the best they every had.
Edit: I know about southern Spain; Andalusia, so the comments I make are about that region of the country. I love that place and I'll die there, but it's something different if you are used to the north of EU.