Hey that's me! I was even willing to do long distance relationship with my partner for it and almost landed a job offer.

I wouldn't say indefinitely but it did indeed put a dent after that 2 German tourists being detained for a week. I even got a US flight ticket (for tourism) as a gift from my mom since I had told her I want to visit SV but that one got on hold too.

I don't consider myself exceptionally competent or talented so I'm not sure you're missing out on much tho. At least big companies, probably not much. Top of the top talents are probably not deterred and big companies probably have framework to mitigate the turbulence

I’ve seen the tide beginning to shift among prospective students and some engineers, particularly those from India or China who could face 20+ year waits to get a green card even if they were sponsored. Doubly so with the big cuts in research funding. The last 10 years have shown how capricious the conditions for temporary immigrants are so it’s risky to be in that position unless you plan to go somewhere else after studies or have a clear and fast path to permanent residence/citizenship. As Canadians many of us have decided not to visit the US for tourism until things change. Realistically the US has a lot going for it so things will probably not change dramatically unless the administration continues to damage trust over a long time period and some compelling alternatives appear.

I recently migrated to the USA from Canada. I make 2x the income I made in Canada. My work is about the same as it was. I was also able to get competent medical care in the USA but in Canada I was on a waitlist for 2 years. I had to jump through a lot of hoops and the GC process was shitty, but my life is good here and I am glad I came.

I think economic freedom is a powerful motivator. Unlocking a social media account is hardly a deterrent.

This is a great point to highlight how the current ability of America to produce outcomes like yours, is downstream of their ability to maintain institutional fitness.

These instructions are symptoms that show that the institutional fitness is degraded.

Good planning would be to come to America, take advantage of the increase in pay or opportunity, and several years later, leave once the inevitable co-morbidities become too much.

I see this argument a lot. It works if you don't mind being surrounded by people in much, much worse condition than yours, for no reason other than policy cruelty.

> I think economic freedom is a powerful motivator. Unlocking a social media account is hardly a deterrent.

Sounds like an amazing place if you're healthy and able to work, the two things that are not guaranteed day-to-day, and will inevitably decline with age.

> Unlocking a social media account is hardly a deterrent.

I'm always reading on HN that America is inherently destined to out-innovate China because of "Democracy" and "Free Speech" - but here we are, with first amendment rights being chilled[1] in blatant ways. I wonder how those HNers see the future of American innovation.

1. Historically, the American government has always been hands-off with the KKK and American Nazis because of their 1A rights. Rights that don't seem to extend to vocal brown university students criticizing a foreign government.

Cool. As long as you dont care about LBGT persecution, children being forced to give birth and minorities being sent to El Salvador, enjoy your economic freedom. Seems like your values and what you look for in a society are a match with the current state of affairs in USA.

Friendly reminder to everyone that this isn't Reddit, although comments like this make it seem so.

If you're ambitious and individualistic (as those who create the most economic value are), there's no alternative to the United States still.

If you're from a wealthy place like Europe or Canada: The United States is still far richer, bigger market, and more risk-encouraging than your homeland. Not everybody will want to move from those places, but I've seen first-hand how many ambitious people will. The ambitious culture and opportunity can't be overstated, and the ability to create a better life in a far more efficient country that rewards your efforts.

If you're from a poor place like Latin America: Almost anywhere in the United States is still better quality-of-life, better pay, etc., plenty of reasons to move.

From my sample size, the only people discouraged by this are political agitators who take up valuable spots at our universities, and contribute ~nothing to our economy anyways. Almost every immigrant I know supports these actions.

Even before this whole shitshow I thought about moving to the US because 2x the salary compared to Europe, but jumping through the visa application hoops just isn't worth it.

Funny thing about US salaries: Based on my limited reasearch, freelance rates and hourly rates for employees seem pretty close there. For employees, there's also no particular job security, sick leave, vacations in any guaranteed way, it comes down to the benevolence of the company.

In Europe, freelance rates differ from hourly employee pay by a factor of 2-3. As an employee, it's pretty difficult for a company (except small companies, which are exempt) to get rid of you, and the common approach is that they just offer you a relatively high severance payment.

So all things considered, I would think being an employee in the US is pretty similar to being a freelancer in Europe. Pay-wise and security wise. The major difference is that you have to find clients. Realistically multiple, due to "fake freelancing" regulations.

It matters very much where you get hired. The silicon valley/Seattle area companies pay double or triple what you get on the countryside. And yeah, freelancing in the US is very different compared to Europe.

I think your second sentence answers your first: if the visa process were straightforward, one wouldn't need to hire specialists.

Are there any highly developed nations where job applicants submit their own visa applications? I never heard of it once in my career.

Yes. E.g. https://www.uscis.gov/i-765

Right but that’s not an oversight. The fact that this puts the universities in bad straits is fine if you’re running an administration deliberately hostile to universities.

It depends on where you're coming from. If you grew up in a poor country, or one run by cartels or drug lords of an oppressive regime, the worst parts of the US can be an improvement. The current political climate has been around for a decade now, news like this is nothing to be surprised about.

The availability of ridiculous amounts of investment cash is a good motivator. Startups start in America because American investors are willing to throw billions at the wall just to see if something will stick or not. Try that in Europe and you'll never get anywhere. The same also used to apply for scientific grants, and if you can find a corporate sponsor it probably still applies.

Higher wages are also a factor. More than one skilled programmer I know have considered working themselves "half to death" for a few years to build up wealth in the USA, and then returning home to comfortably spend that wealth.

Plus, despite everything else, the USA has some excellent facilities for higher education. If you want your kids to have opportunities in life and have the money to afford the ridiculously high fees, American educational facilities are very attractive.

Academics looking for the edge of innovation are well suited in many American institutions. News of cuts and changes to the US geographical service and weather service hit the world like a truck because those are areas that the US (and perhaps Russia) excels in, and everyone else has been catching up or cooperating with American programmes.

Don't forget: millions of people have moved to the US illegally, facing risk of deportation and long jail times, being separated from their families. Altering the privacy settings on their Facebook accounts is the least of their worries. Of course, illegal immigrants can't give a rat's ass about the legal requirements to enter the country anyway, but their sheer number shows how much so many people are willing to risk just to partake in US society, even if it's just for manual labour. Plus, that weird thing you guys do where people born within your borders automatically get citizenship is a nice way to ensure somewhat of a nice future for people looking to start a family.

As a tourist, though, things do seem to have shifted. The people coming to America to improve their lives will probably be a lot more persistent in following their dreams compared to the people coming in for leisure, especially when countries like Canada are just as far away. I myself have wanted to save up to see things like Disneyland and Cape Canaveral, but my plans have been on hold ever since the Trump election and I don't think I'll be reconsidering any time soon. From what I've heard in the news from travel agencies, I'm not alone, and my country is one of the more tolerant European countries when it comes to American bullshit.

Personally, no.

The stance of the US on illegal inmigration has always been clear, and the process for requesting a B1B2 visa is like a rite of entry where it is made even clearer (interviews, seriousness). My father explained it to me when I was young, I must have thought the process was a bit too harsh, "going to their country is like going to somebody else's home, you need to follow their rules, and it's a privilege not a right, to enter".

From what I read, the rules haven't changed, rather they are being enforced. My perspective as an outsider is that the people that complain are mostly leftist extremist from one of the most left leaning and inmigrant heavy states (CA).

I know a lot of people from my country that consider breaking rules and laws as part of natural life and they see visa rules as some other rule to be broken, lots of people that overstay visitor and business visas to work and live in the states or other countries.

I see these changes in enforcement as positive to me, as they do not restrict me in any way except in false positives, as I was already complying with the law and my visa terms. If anything, I am benefitted, as the benefits that are given to law abiding people are becoming exclusive to those that abide the law, instead of also those that disregard it.

It reminds me of this scene from mad men

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4FC1VU_uO4

> I see these changes in enforcement as positive to me, as they do not restrict me in any way except in false positives, as I was already complying with the law and my visa terms.

The bootlicker ethos thoroughly explained

I think I understand your point, but isn't calling this "bootlicker ethos" a bit strong?

I think TZubiri was speaking narrowly, of specific rules. And of their personal general law-abiding view, which one can respect.

I think they weren't speaking more broadly, of all the rules, conditions, and actions that currently apply to immigrants.

For example, I imagine they'd be surprised if, obeying all the rules, as far as they knew, they were suddenly grabbed off the street. Would they feel wronged? I don't think they're addressing that in the narrow comments here.

Regarding the part about thinking of themself as a guest, it's unclear at what point they have (in their view) earned additional rights -- by following rules, and contributing to US society -- and can start to think of it as their home, with additional rights and responsibilities, rather than as still only a guest.

Of course, if someone were framing an issue disingenuously, that might rate strong terms, but I'm trying to follow HN guidelines here, of trying to use the best interpretation of what someone said.

> I think I understand your point, but isn't calling this "bootlicker ethos" a bit strong?

It is strong but I thought merited by Tzubiri’s glee at the imposition of more stringent immigration process

I’m also an immigrant and was able to follow through the long process to immigrate to the US

I quote from Tzubiri gp comment:

> The stance of the US on illegal inmigration has always been clear

Obviously not true - as proven by the fact that millions of illegals immigrants are currently employed in the US, pay taxes, can buy homes, have drivers licenses

> From what I read, the rules haven't changed, rather they are being enforced. My perspective as an outsider is that the people that complain are mostly leftist extremist from one of the most left leaning and inmigrant heavy states (CA).

Even president Trump acknowledged the dependence of US businesses on illegal immigrant labor when calling of ICE raids on farms. The most anti-California president elected not to enforce the rules they swore to follow.

> I see these changes in enforcement as positive to me, as they do not restrict me in any way except in false positives, as I was already complying with the law and my visa terms.

The US visa system makes people jump through arbitrary hoops just to stem the flow of foreigners.

Immigrants that follow the rules then come to believe that instead the system accurately measures worthiness

Why are EB3 wait times for India 10+ years but other countries 2 years?

Why did the US cancel the visas of Haiti and Venezuelan workers thus turning them into illegal immigrants overnight

Why were Cuban immigrants granted special status ?

Why are Cubans banned from US visas ?

The bootlicker is because Tzubiri could do everything by the book and still have their country be banned - they don’t know how additional enforcement will affect them or their loved one’s

> I see these changes in enforcement as positive to me, as they do not restrict me in any way except in false positives

And false positives based on random things such as tattoos resulting in getting shipped to a concentration camp, with no due process, are positive to you?

(I appreciate you sharing your perspective, and I'll assume it's sincere, and I don't know why you were downvoted.)

I think that's a nice Mad Men scene in some ways. But we can agree that the writer used weak, stoned, strawman hippie characters for dramatic effect, so that Don Draper could be cool and reinforce the character. The closing line was especially smooth, and fit (and burned).

That scene expresses how you feel, and that's one entertaining way to communicate it, and that's fine.

But I hope we all agree that the scene doesn't constitute competent debate of the merits of feeling that way?