Passively? Actively. A majority of voters handed over all the keys to these guys in full knowledge of the kind of people they are and what they wanted to do.
>I keep wondering where the line is, for those on the right. It seems like wherever you would draw a line in the sand … we're past that point.
Been thinking about this for years. I've come to the conclusion that there might be two seperate groups.
1. People that have nothing left to lose. Their life is ruined due to their community falling on hard times and if they see the people they perceive at fault suffering then they are satisfied.
2. People who love to watch the other side suffer but have themselves not felt enough pain yet. It has to really hurt for them to stop. I think the economy crashing in 08 was a moment where many of them quieted down for a tiny bit until the pain stopped.
The people with truly nothing left to lose are probably worried more about existing than voting, but I do generally agree otherwise. I think some resentment is possibly along lines of smarts/education and the roles and trappings those normally bring?
Assuming I did my sums right, DT won by approximately 1.5%. Hardly a ringing endorsement. He got 31.59% of the voter-eligible (VE) population. I count active yes votes as for a candidate and non-voter passive no votes. Some non-voters support a candidate, but since they didn't vote, their non-votes count against each candidate.
EC %EC pop vote %of ballots %of VE population
Democratic Kamala Harris Tim Walz 226 42% 75,019,230 48.34% 30.66%
Republican Donald J. Trump J.D. Vance 312 58% 77,303,568 49.81% 31.59%
voter eligible population 244,666,890 non-voters 89,278,948
> Passively? Actively. A majority of voters handed over all the keys to these guys in full knowledge of the kind of people they are and what they wanted to do.
I wouldn't say "full knowledge," but it's not like the other guys were any good either. There was a huge spike in inflation and right before the election it became clear they were lying about their leader's obvious incapacity. All the options voters had were bad.
Personally, I blame the Democrats for this. Winning against Trump should've been easy, but they managed to fuck it up in all kinds of ways. They knew the stakes (and said so, loudly), but for some unfathomable reason they thought that meant they could coast. They also don't appear to know what the fuck they should be doing now, and seem to want to keep coasting.
We had a full four-year trial period for this administration, plus four years of additional public shenanigans, plus a published detailed action plan (Project 2025). I don’t know what else they could have done to make it obvious what you were voting for.
The Democrats put up an alternative that wasn’t very exciting, but it’s ridiculous to claim the choices were somehow equally bad. One of them was boring, the other was an unprecedented level of bad, like literally historically bad.
> The Democrats put up an alternative that wasn’t very exciting, but it’s ridiculous to claim the choices were somehow equally bad. One of them was boring, the other was an unprecedented level of bad, like literally historically bad.
Well, the Democrats lost to that "unprecedented level of bad," so I think you're missing something.
Is there any reason in particular people should not be blaming Republican voters for "this"? The US had four full years of Trump and it was plain as day what he'd get up to from his campaign, and voters still think he was a good choice. At what point does the US stop coddling Republican voters and blaming Democrats, even if they ran a bad campaign?
The idea that a voter is ignorant and stupid to realize the consequences of their actions that they need a "campaign" telling them is frankly absurd.
I think this is a great point, and people honestly don't say it enough.
There was a clearly worse choice this cycle, even if you felt both options were not ideal.
Apparently, though, most people do not have a memory capable of spanning back past four years time. That and, depressingly, many people are woefully uninformed voters.
But this is a natural consequence of poor labor structure. Work the wage earner to the bone so that they have no time to actually consider their options, learn, and make informed decisions. Cut their leisure to a minimum so that every vote is a vote of vibes and gut feeling.
I feel this myself when assessing local candidates. I would love to develop a complete picture of each candidate and their beliefs, but with what time?
I’m baffled. Are you saying the Republicans were acting more like grownups? I think the Democrats learned too late that the voters didn’t want grownups and weren’t sure how to respond.
You would think the republicans did themselves in by claiming tariffs would lower prices. And not really having an economic policy, claiming to have a concept of a plan, but really not even that. The lack of substance, and the effectiveness of that lack of substance, was definitely enough to throw the Democrats off their game.
Seriously, how do you even begin to counteract whatever it was the Republicans were throwing around? Narcissistic wild claims (Gaza/Ukraine wouldn’t have been attacked if I was president!), exaggeration (Biden’s non-recession was the worst ever!), the downright bizarre (I’m prettier than Kamala). It’s like running against Bizarro, what sane person would have even considered voting for him anyways?
The American voters are definitely at fault here, not the Democrats. They were given the smelliest, harmful garbage and they actually voted for it. What consequences come from this are their fault, not the Democrats that didn’t run a crazy bizarre candidate.
I think this is a bit disingenuous. It was more like "he sucks, he has no plan for X and his plan makes no factual sense for Y, vote for me, here's my plan for X and my plan for Y" (remember the whole concept of a plan thing?)
The bad leadership is still there so they will try to continue this nonsense next cycle. Whats worse is they are beginning to groom the next generation of grifters. We saw this with the start of Gen-Z Democratic 'influencers' this cycle.
Woah, great gotcha! Did you really come to Hacker News to denegarte people you thought didn’t have a basic understanding of Economics? Right now I have a problem with both. Maybe deregulating the SEC helps poor people? I don’t hear anyone making that argument right now though.
I’m ok with that general idea. I’d like to see a lot more people worth 10-100 million, and less people worth 10-100billion, and I think there’s too much wealth being generated from financial games, and not enough from creating valuable goods and services, thus my particular concern about Musk going into the SEC.
The rich don't get richer by sitting in their labs and tinkering until they invent something that nobody had before. That's so last two centuries. The way they get rich now is by making us pay more for the same stuff we already had.
Um, my Tesla today is cheaper than an Acura I bought 20 years ago. Tech has been deflationary. And overall, quality of life and life expectancy has improved over time under Capitalism.
Sure, if someone has a moat, they will try to maximize their profit. Assuming fair competition though, I would expect a competitor to emerge.
Well, I for once dislike what they are doing, but mostly because what they are doing is both ineffective and loud. Instead of carefully, efficiently dismantling the federal regulatory state into nothing, they are not only failing to actually achieve much but giving the whole project a bad name.
Which protest do I join? "Handsaws, not chainsaws! But do cut the trunk, and as close to the ground as you can!"
1. All three branches of government are controlled by the MAGA Party. I call it the MAGA Party, not the Republican Party, since the Republican Party has long been purged of serious Never Trumper opposition.
2. There are not enough Democrats in Congress to impeach and convict Trump of any unconstitutional acts.
3. There is no mechanism available to recall congresspeople or to trigger a special election, and the next election of congresspeople isn’t until November 2026, a year and a half away.
4. I live in a blue state (California) with blue representatives (San Francisco Bay Area) at the federal level. What good would it do me to write senators Adam Schiff and Alex Padilla or congressman Mark DeSaulnier?
5. The people who have the most power to change things are people who have red representatives, since they have the 2026 midterm elections to worry about. However, many of the people living in such districts voted for Trump and are largely on board with the MAGA agenda. Why would they write their representatives?
6. We could protest through demonstrations and boycotts, but the protests need to be effective in order for them to not simply be demonstrative. Moreover, protests run the risk of getting hijacked by extremists and saboteurs, and authoritarians love exploiting crises to crack down on dissent. Protesting could be a potential trap.
It’s a very bleak situation right now due to MAGA’s control over all three branches of government. The best we could hope for is:
1. Start planning for the 2026 elections NOW! Elections cost a lot of money and require a lot of planning. If MAGA loses control of Congress in January 2027, this could add a much-needed check to MAGA and could help with the 2028 election season.
2. With the way Trump, Elon, and others in power are carrying on, eventually segments of the MAGA voter base will be harmed by MAGA policies. I particularly see Trump’s tariffs to be quite painful. If enough Republican voters start openly expressing their discontent for MAGA policies, then this is a chance for MAGA to lose absolute control of power in January 2027.
This was the excuse, but it doesn't hold water. The admin were actively trying to get people to endorse the CR. Arguably, the shut down would have been enough of a limit point and potential catastrophe that they would not have been able to actually use it to effect a "takeover"—instead it might've been the necessary fuel to effect a turning point toward restricting some of these efforts—they know they cannot gut everything, the goal is to keep a skeleton in place so that they can keep up the appearance of "improvement" while they dismantle, a full shut down would have made that parlor trick ineffective.
I don't know if Schumer had other motivations or if he just made the biggest blunder of his political career, either way it has not turned out well for him—not only are people actively calling for him to be replaced, it's clear that history will not remember this supposedly necessary shut down prevention as something "heroic".
It is a creature of the New Deal where many of its programs exist on shaky constitutional ground, existing primarily because standing with the courts is difficult to achieve
Although the New Deal is heralded in the history books, most programs of the new deal were declared unconstitutional within 10 years, and everything that remains should be heavily scrutinized with that knowledge
The SEC stands out like a sore thumb when you really look at it
When its not blatantly separating classes, it is the state arm of FINRA and openly captured.
Just keep EDGAR for financial reports and thats it. They can’t even explicitly define what insider trading is and isn’t.
The current protests are tame and quite frankly pathetic. If your protests aren't strong enough that the government fears you, there's no reason to believe an apathetic government will even acknowledge you.
Until the citizens of the US are willing to shut things down, expect nothing to change. Look to other countries for examples of effective protest and understand that effective protest requires sacrifice, not just an afternoon walking around with a sign.
The government isn't going to fear anything that's a protest unless it affects their reelection. It would be helpful if you give examples of the other protests you reference, as I think you might be lacking verbosity and other words may be more accurate to use.
For that reason, if I was seeking change, I'd go aggressively after any Republican who isn't shutting this sort of thing down. Seek public statements in opposition or link them as complicit. Do it in a way that has a lasting effect. Trump will flame out. Musk's fallback is wealth. But there are others quietly riding on their efforts who will then wash their hands of them when the opportunity arises.
I see a lot of comments like this from people not even willing to take the step of going to a protest in the first place. Expecting someone else to generate the critical mass needed to effect the change you're talking about, without lifting a finger themselves.
The people "spending an afternoon walking around with a sign" are doing a lot more than the people shitting on them for it. Mass movements have to start somewhere, they don't come out of thin air.
Why not criticize all the people sitting at home, rather than calling the ones actually trying "pathetic"?
For protests to have any bite they must be coordinated, focused and persistent. While neither the countries largest unions, nor the opposition is calling for any direct action (be they demonstrations, boycotts, or general strikes) it is unlikely that they will be any of the three.
Now protests can be demonstrative and the more you protest the likelier you are at protesting again, and if the climate is right some organizations might join and call for others to participate. But what usually happens though is police violence suppressing them as soon as they look like they are gaining any steam (see e.g. Occupy Wall Street or BLM).
That said, as long as the opposition and the large unions are lame, any direct action will remain pretty restricted.
> Why not criticize all the people sitting at home, rather than calling the ones actually trying "pathetic"?
This is quite the whataboutism. Just because I criticize the protestors doesn't mean I'm defending people that don't protest.
You're right, it's a start. But pragmatically it's still not meaningful. Until the protests are strong enough that the government actually feels fear there is no reason to expect anything to happen. That's just reality.
If the protest is ineffective then the protest is ineffective. I don't care how hard you tried, I care how effective you were. Pragmatically, if the protest doesn't change anything, it's not any better than sitting at home. If that protest leads to bigger protests that ultimately change something, then that matters.
Yes, everything has to start somewhere. But that doesn't mean every start is meaningful if it goes nowhere.
Huh? I think you've reached a reduction ad absurdium that would suggest quietism as the best policy, you claim:
protests aren't meaningful unless they get results
but protests also have to start somewhere
but these starts have no results
so better not to start
Do you really expect a singular protest which will change the world order over night? It might give us some personal satisfaction to claim others are ineffective and weak, but in the annals of history, that amounts to even less than a sign bearing march. If you really want to make an impact put forward some positive prescriptions, like the strikes you mentioned, I agree that actual strikes would be a good step. I hope you are actively sharing these recommendations to people who can organize and not just putting forward diffuse ineffectual critique to strangers on hacker news
Fair enough. I will say that you do not need to explicitly say something for your line of argumentation to imply it as a logical consequence. I would stress that such a judgement (that the effort is pathetic) is not constructive. What we need right now are concrete, constructive, positive suggestions on how to make these efforts more effective. Value judgements like this, as much as they might make us feel better by giving us a claim to superiority, accomplish nothing.
> I will say that you do not need to explicitly say something for your line of argumentation to imply it as a logical consequence.
Maybe you should read my actual comments instead of jumping to conclusions. In my first comment I made it clear that protests are useless until the government fears you. If I can ignore you easily, so can the government. Nobody gives a shit about you holding a sign. Until you can make the government scared of you as far as I'm concerned you may as well sit your ass at home.
I'm not here to validate your feelings or cheer you on. I'm pointing out why you're failing and you're snapping back like I give a shit. You're welcome to ignore me just as easily as it is for me to ignore the current protests.
Protests have never caused political change. Not once in history. Protests cannot cause political change.
They do a few things, but actually causing change is not one of them. They show how many people support something; they group those people together enabling the spread of ideas; they group those people together enabling the state apparatus to take them all down in one go.
Musk is out there calling Tesla protestors terrorists. If what you're doing is enough to get you labelled a terrorist by the opposition, then you're doing something they fear.
Not entirely an answer, but the judiciary is being somewhat existentially threatened by the effective.
"They" are referring to Tesla vandalism as domestic terrorism (it's criminal vandalism and seriously generous, yes, but if setting a car on fire is domestic terrorism then lots of countries have more terrorists than they thought).
"They" are black-bagging students who dare to suggest that maybe Israel shouldn't bomb Gaza so much.
"They" refer to any difference of opinion as activism from radical lefty loonies.
Fear is being sown in the general populace. But the rowdy Town Halls around the country are great signs of hope and resistance.
The tepid ones are the spineless Republican representatives being actively derelict in their duty to their country, still attempting to defend Trump and Elon despite their legitimately worried and angry constituencies.
> "They" are referring to Tesla vandalism as domestic terrorism (it's criminal vandalism and seriously generous, yes, but if setting a car on fire is domestic terrorism then lots of countries have more terrorists than they thought).
The intent behind the vandalism is what makes it terrorism instead of just vandalism.
Since these guys are mostly targeting non-defense discretionary spending, cutting 15% of the federal budget means cutting literally everything.
I’d guess lots of people don’t actually want the entire government minus the military, social security, and medicaid eliminated, whether they admit it (or realize it) or not. Like the FDIC is pretty nice.
Also non-defense discretionary funding has not actually increased that much in recent years. There was a spike in 2020 due to COVID, but it has returned to pre-covid levels.
I don't know anything about the FDIC being eliminated. I see a lot of unnecessary overseas spending getting eliminated. I see a ton of real estate getting eliminated.
$130B added up real quick and it's only been a month. You can see the "Wall of Receipts" here, which is updated about every 2 weeks (in my personal experience) https://doge.gov/savings
They're doing no such thing, of course. They're targeting political enemies and anything that hinders their donors/puppet masters from getting richer at the expense of everyone else. The effect on spending will be minimal, and smaller than the (negative) effect on income.
Threatening law firms that have previously been on the other side of the argument from Trump's various court cases.
Black-bagging students who write articles and take part in (and maybe even, shock-horror, organise) protests (in both these case: exercise their "right" to free speech).
There are daily updates to a lot of these examples.
DOGE's "data" hasn't exactly been consistent. It's been needing a lot of on-going correction and has been attempting to take credit for a lot of things that required no active participation (contracts reaching their natural end, contracts that ended under the previous administration but paperwork remains to officially end it, and various other examples). Amongst various other failures of understanding of the underlying information.
"threatening to de-fund universities"
- you mean the multi-billion endowment private universities that charge 60 grand a year?
"Black-bagging students who write articles and take part in (and maybe even, shock-horror, organise) protests (in both these case: exercise their "right" to free speech)."
- any citizens you can point to?
RE DOGE, can you point to any inaccuracies on doge.gov? literally everything is listed out, so should be easy to point out.
RE donors/puppet masters from getting richer at the expense of everyone else.
- who are these donors and puppet masters? Elon's net worth has probably gone down. And for a guy who has created the most wealth in history arguably, doesn't need to get into government to secure a few lucrative contracts for himself. More likely that you are deranged sir.
I will be very surprised, but if the Trump / Elon administration results in a better state of affairs for the world as a whole, then I will be eating a LOT of my own words, and I'll do it happily because "a better state of affairs for the world" is the kind of progress I want to see.
Totally and absolutely that is the outcome I would prefer.
There are just too many data points so far in the wrong direction in such a short amount of time that I can't see even a satisfactory outcome, never mind an outcome better than what existed prior.
On the flipside: the co-operation of European countries is a good outcome, and a version of Europe that can defend itself against Russian aggression without any US assistance is a better situation than a worse one. I don't think it's good that NATO is essentially dead, but something better has a chance of rising from those ashes.
Relatively adequate recovery after a global pandemic might be one, investments into significant infra programs might be another, even with long time horizons. The last administration wasn't perfect by any means, but it arguably did not take any actions that directly make life worse for the average person. This administration is actively putting forth policy that weaken america's economic and sociopolitical position globally and directly disrupt active industry...you are rooting for people who are directly working against your own economic interest and also doing lasting damage to the general political process that we have followed in various iterations for years (unless you are million/billionaire, in which case, congrats)
"it arguably did not take any actions that directly make life worse for the average person."
- I don't think you've talked to an average person. They are quite upset.
"you are rooting for people who are directly working against your own economic interest"
- No actually. They have a plan and they have articulated it. It may not work in the end, but it is not a forgone conclusion. And they are most definitely striving to help the average person. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSma9suyp24, https://youtu.be/182ckTL2KBA?si=x6cRwNeMgAVFLTq0.
> I don't think you've talked to an average person. They are quite upset.
I actually have, and essentially everyone, when pressed to give an actual, concrete example of how their life has been directly, negatively impacted by the previous admin fails to materialize one.
Instead it's all some BS fairytale narrative or outrage they have bought into through, e.g. youtube videos and podcasts hosted by people who have essential zero accreditation other than wealth, and that they continue to concoct in their nutrient impoverished brains, without evidence or reason.
Newsflash: the all-in podcast finance bros are not looking out for you or hoping you make it big time. They are literally angling to run pump and dump scams off the backs of their listeners (there is an episode in which they admit as much in relation to crypto) and continue to peddle anti labor perspectives in hopes that they can keep a grossly inequitable financial system that rewards investors and financiers more than actual producers and laborers afloat long enough to live like kings themselves—they don't give a flying fuck about you, me, or anyone else that listens to their crock. Wake up and begin to invest your time in perspectives that actually benefit you and your immediate community, don't let these clowns take you for a ride.
Stop fixating on the finance bros. I gave you two links to two long form talks by the current Secretary of Treasury and Secratary of Commerce. Listen to them and draw your own conclusions, so atleast we know you are aware what the adminstration is trying to do, even if you disagree.
I don't have as much of a problem with businessmen getting involved in politics full-time as I have with career politicians - they can't execute, and they all seem to somehow get a whole lot richer. Republican or Democrat.
well, here is some evidence that average person is worse off:
"economic conditions for the bottom 50% improved more clearly and consistently during Trump's administration (2017–2020) compared to Biden’s tenure (2021–2025)."
This the most tepid, pathetic generation there has ever been.