>None of which is impossible, but it's all tedious and error-prone and there's no real standardisation (so e.g. even if you come up with a good workflow for your project, will your IDE understand it?).
I mean, my "IDE" is Vim, and I'm not even a Vim power-user or anything.
People gravitate towards tools according to their needs and preferences. My own needs are simple, and my aesthetic sense is such that I strongly prefer to use many small tools instead of an opinionated, over-arching workflow tool. Getting into the details probably isn't productive any further from here.
>That's a standard written in response to the rise of uv
I know it looks this way given the timing, but I really don't think that's accurate. Python packaging discussion moves slowly and people have been talking about lock files for a long time. PEP 751 has seen multiple iterations, and it's not the first attempt, either. When uv first appeared, a lot of important people were taken completely by surprise; they hadn't heard of the project at all. My impression is that the Astral team liked it just fine that way, too. But it's not as if someone like Brett Cannon had an epiphany from seeing uv's approach. Poetry has been doing its own lock files for years.
>so an optional lock file is of limited effectiveness
The problem is that you aren't going to just get everyone to do everything "professionally". Python is where it is because of the low barrier to entry. A quite large fraction of Python programmers likely still don't even know what pyproject.toml is.
>I don't think it justifies a "python packaging has never been a problem" stance
That's certainly not my stance and I don't think it's the other guy's stance. I just shy away from heavyweight solutions on principle. Simple is better than complex, and all that. And I end up noticing problems that others don't, this way.
> People gravitate towards tools according to their needs and preferences.
Up to a point, but people are also nudged, not always consciously, by the reality of what tools exist in their ecosystem. The fact that Python makes "heavy" tools difficult to write and use is a significant factor in what many Python developers think is just a personal preference, IME. (I'd also argue that if you want to use lots of small tools you actually have more need for a standard format for your dependencies and your lockfile, since all the tools need to understand it).
> The problem is that you aren't going to just get everyone to do everything "professionally". Python is where it is because of the low barrier to entry. A quite large fraction of Python programmers likely still don't even know what pyproject.toml is.
Yes and no. I agree that many Python programmers aren't going to change the defaults and may not even know where their tool config file is. Any approach that requires extra effort from the user is not going to succeed. That's exactly why I think lockfiles need to be on by default, which is not something that has to make things harder for users (e.g. npm is a similarly beginner-first ecosystem but they have lockfiles and I've never seen it cited as something that makes it harder to get started or anything like that).
I mean, my "IDE" is Vim, and I'm not even a Vim power-user or anything.
People gravitate towards tools according to their needs and preferences. My own needs are simple, and my aesthetic sense is such that I strongly prefer to use many small tools instead of an opinionated, over-arching workflow tool. Getting into the details probably isn't productive any further from here.
>That's a standard written in response to the rise of uv
I know it looks this way given the timing, but I really don't think that's accurate. Python packaging discussion moves slowly and people have been talking about lock files for a long time. PEP 751 has seen multiple iterations, and it's not the first attempt, either. When uv first appeared, a lot of important people were taken completely by surprise; they hadn't heard of the project at all. My impression is that the Astral team liked it just fine that way, too. But it's not as if someone like Brett Cannon had an epiphany from seeing uv's approach. Poetry has been doing its own lock files for years.
>so an optional lock file is of limited effectiveness
The problem is that you aren't going to just get everyone to do everything "professionally". Python is where it is because of the low barrier to entry. A quite large fraction of Python programmers likely still don't even know what pyproject.toml is.
>I don't think it justifies a "python packaging has never been a problem" stance
That's certainly not my stance and I don't think it's the other guy's stance. I just shy away from heavyweight solutions on principle. Simple is better than complex, and all that. And I end up noticing problems that others don't, this way.