This is a technology problem. Media technology (radio, recordings, television, and movies) has essentially killed live performance of all kind compared to what it was once like. Bars and hotels that used to rely on gig musicians can now play a Spotify playlist over the speakers. Repertory theatres once existed in every small and medium sized city in the country, each supporting several actors earning salaries sufficient to raise a family—all wiped out by television.
It would have once been unthinkable for even a small city of <=100,000 people to lack multiple live entertainment options 7 days a week. No more—we’re all at home, watching our particular chosen thing, listening to our particular chosen album, playing our own chosen game.
Some will claim this has been an advancement. “How lame,” they say, “it must have been to have to go to the Local Entertainment Venue and just listen to whatever act was on that night. Nowadays I can listen to Acid Techno Super Hop, my particular chosen favorite, as much as I want.” But the losses in communal behavior have been significant. Most critical is the disappearance of dance. Dance is a fundamental human behavior, stretching back to Paleolithic times. It is nowhere to be seen in many cities today, because no one has any occasion to do it except weddings, at which it is very common now to stand around awkwardly after the bride and groom have fumbled through some rehearsed step.
Dance wasn’t critical. It was something people did at night when they had nothing to do sitting around the communal fire. It’s not critical.
Critical are the communities and communal activities. Those have disappeared. We need to live in environments where people eat in communal environments not centered around nuclear families. That’s the critical piece that is missing and making everyone feel empty.
Music and dance is but an aspect of this.
Generally humanity evolved to live in tribes and that is where we are most content. In modern times the closest where I’ve seen this is living in dorms or places with shared kitchens and communal eating areas. This promotes the type of communities that make humans happiest.
There was a wave of business plans and startups that tried to tackle this problem by building apartment communities that are more “social”. One that exists nowadays is https://www.flow.life/en/. But these businesses get it all wrong because they lack the communal kitchen and eating areas. The environment needs to have a forcing function to make people form communities not have it as some optional social event. The former makes people much much much closer and the bonds much stronger. Anyone who’s lived in such an environment can attest to this.
Respectfully, I am not interested in apartment buildings that are more social. I already live in one where laundry facilities are shared and a court yard is shared as well between everyone.
Despite the fact that there are signs everywhere in the laundry rooms with a list of tasks that need to be done at the end of the session, from my experience, 50% of the time, none of the tasks such as sweep the floors, clean the filters of the dryers are done.
Most people simply don't care.
Same with the courtyard, people let their kids run free in it and at the end of playtime, the kids just leave all their toys, bikes, pushbikes everywhere so much so that if you want to go in the courtyard, you basically have to move things out of the way.
The parents are there watching their kids during playtime but it doesnt come to their mind that someone else might want to use the space. They have no consideration for anyone but themselves when it would take just a few minutes to gather all the toys and put them in a corner somewhere.
Then there is the noise, people leave their dogs alone and the dogs start barking for hours because it's scared and when you suggest that maybe they should take the dog with them, they act all offended as if you suggested something truly horrible.
Not to mention, the guy who decides that 2am on a Wednesday is the perfect time to blast music with his windows open.
So, no thanks , I have had enough of communal living. Most people just don't know how to behave in a community and I am tired of picking up the slack of other people and being see as the bad guy on the block because I ask people to follow some basic rules so that we can all live together peacefully.
The apartment thing is besides the point. The communal eating is the main thing. You might be interested in a setup that’s more like a duplex with your own yard and own everything but only when you eat you go to a cafeteria.
That being said I’m aware the setup I’m talking about is more suited for single people.
Additionally, I currently live in an apartment where none of the issues you mentioned exist.
> The apartment thing is besides the point. The communal eating is the main thing. You might be interested in a setup that’s more like a duplex with your own yard and own everything but only when you eat you go to a cafeteria.
I don't think so. Why would I subject myself to that? I have lived in shared dorms while in college and the kitchens were nasty not to mention the toilets and showers. What makes you think this setup would be any different?
This kind of place can only work if the rules are followed by everyone and if someone steps out of line, then consequences need to happen.
> Additionally, I currently live in an apartment where none of the issues you mentioned exist.
Respectfully, I have lived in apartments practically my whole life, there is always someone who thinks that they own the whole building and starts making life a misery for everyone else.
No this is stupid. Dance is super important, because it allows one or two people or just a few to form an instant social pod and enjoy themselves for a few hours.
I have a friend like you who wants everyone to live in "communities" with "communal living". He is just ultimately bossy and alienates all his friends (including me to be honest).
Try and force me to get to know my neighbours -- I simply will not. The last thing I need is someone trying to borrow "butter" or "dropping by" from 603 interrupting my desperately needed self time after working a 10 hour day.
Let me find my own friends and leave me alone to go out DANCING! And I'll find my friends no problem!
> I have a friend like you who wants everyone to live in "communities" with "communal living". He is just ultimately bossy and alienates all his friends (including me to be honest).
You’re the same as your friend. You called my idea stupid. I forgive you but this style of conversation leads immediately to conflict rather than thoughtful discussion. You are just like your friend and you likely don’t realize it.
That being said I can’t agree with you. Men typically don’t like to dance. It’s not a thing. Eating is a thing. Agree to disagree but I don’t think your pov represents the general consensus.
Not sure what the cool thing is these days -- but for me at a Pantera concert it was for 99.5% men moshing in front of the band and it was awesome haha.
Not sure where you get your stat from anyways -- seems most of my local Latin dance groups have loads of men (more than women) sitting on the sidelines waiting for their chance to show their stuff : ))
IT IS THE CARS. All of our communal space has been gutted to make more room for cars, which do the exact opposite of community building, as they abstract the human away from the world and you're left with an extremely dangerous, noisy, and angry public space.
>The former makes people much much much closer and the bonds much stronger. Anyone who’s lived in such an environment can attest to this.
I lived in this kind of kind of setup in school. And with all respect, no. Not even close.
My lived experience was that of someone that was the target of said groups to bond over bullying. The verbal abuse I could take. The spitting on my face, the punches to my gut that left me bruised for days on end, fine. No permanent damage.
But I had my throat strangled more times then I want to remember; hands, wires, cords, rope cutting the air off from my lungs and seeing the gray take over my vision. Blacking out over and over again as they derived whatever joy that they took in having my body slump still between their fingers.
And that was every moment I of my existence. No escape. No safety. No relief. I just had to endure and bear it, because what other choice was there? Who was going to help? Who'd believe the word of the wierdo over that of the model students? And they for their part, insist that that what they did was nothing wrong. I didn't die or was maimed, ergo, no foul.
Maybe what you describe is great if you're part of the in group, and if so, great! Go and live in these arrangements then. But what you describe is a living hell for the people that become the target of torment for those groups where no where to run.
As dark as it is, your experience confirms my theory. A group of bullies bonded enough to inflict violence. That level of bond is extremely strong, however dark.
Battle, combat, bullying and tribal warfare are all outcomes when different group forming strong bonds. It's a part of human nature.
You're right if you are part of the group, that's the ideal. But if you're the target of said group it's better to be not allow these groups to even be formed so you can't be a target period.
That being said what you describe is less likely to happen in adult communities because the stakes are higher. When I was younger I was bullied too. I think what ended up happening is that I returned to school and smashed my bullies face in with a bat and if that wasn't going to end it I was going to knife him from behind. The bat was enough and he stopped bullying me, which was the smart thing to do because the hatred and rage I was feeling probably would've ended his life and ruined my own as well.
Once the stakes were higher everyone stops that bullying thing and that's basically what the adult world becomes. Higher stakes, jail time and actual assets and resources can be lost without mom and pop defending you once you're an adult. I understand you have trauma... but I think what happened to us as children no longer applies in the adult world.
In the adult world war behavior like this becomes actual murder and war. So I'm not saying tribal warfare doesn't exists as adults. I'm more referring to say where I live (an average US suburb in CA) where this kind of behavior will only happen to kids.
I'm agreeing with you for the most part. I just want to be far away from your ideal world because ultimately speaking people like me are the ones that exploited. It really sucks to be one the wrong side.
>Once the stakes were higher everyone stops that bullying thing and that's basically what the adult world becomes. Higher stakes, jail time and actual assets and resources can be lost without mom and pop defending you once you're an adult. I understand you have trauma... but I think what happened to us as children no longer applies in the adult world.
I disagree; you're thinking in terms of me being a random victim.
My bullies were quite cognizant of the consequences if they were caught. Alibis were often discussed, and they always made sure to pick locations that where unlikely to be interrupted or observed. But I think they picked me also because most importantly they knew that I was likely to keep silent. Coupled with a criminal justice system that has both hands tied and clogged with far more pressing matters, and an institution that have weigh the reputational damage vs trying to help and well...
And there in lies the rub. So long as the group either picks the victims carefully, they can keep going on. People's nature don't change all that much even as they mature IME. Just that thy get smarter and more careful about getting what they want.
Says you. For me it is. I suspect for many others it is. I have restless legs syndrome. It’s a neurological disorder that makes your legs and feet feel like they have to move. A lot of people have it. Doctors prescribe drugs for it. What actually helps me? Dancing. This is just one of many good effects I get from dancing. My legs and body need to move. I’m not a good dancer. I look like an idiot. But I absolutely have to dance.
Everyone is going to have passions. Passions aren't critical. And dancing with someone you see once at a Meetup who never shows up again isn't how you make a community.
Eating is critical. Everyone needs food. That's why cultures and subcultures all have their unique cuisine. When you eat in a group it's almost inevitable that socialization happens. You gotta delineate from micro (you) and macro (the entire community) factors. No one's saying you cannot dance.
Why are passions not critical? Also what would we define as critical?
People have been kept alive with IV only diets. So in that case food would not be critical either.
Nobody really needs food (or food-culture) to be kept alive.
Food is just a substance we need to enjoy the rest of the important things ;)
Maslow's hierarchy is discredited but it works enough for this simple model. I feel I explained this well enough. If I struggle to keep paying rent (housing and security, the second layer), why would I place my passions, my esteem 2 levels up, over that?
It's possible to be happy and homeless, but not likely. I can't dance well if I'm hungry on the streets.
>Nobody really needs food (or food-culture) to be kept alive
Your biology disagrees, but I wish you the best of luck.
Food culture is the third level, belonging. I'd say it's more critical than your passions, but that's definitely where the pyramid starts to get hazy (hence the discreditation). You can argue a dance culture, but everyone eats food. Not everyone dances.
What I described was a specific health issue which was relieved by dancing. This indicates to me that this kind of movement is biologically essential, not just a passion. Dancing also improves mood. Depression is rampant in our society. People have solved it with SSRIs, but exercise and movement are very effective also. Again, that’s more evidence that humans need to move, and dancing is what our programming seems to want us to do.
"Our programming" wants us to keep moving. Moving flows blood through the system and focuses your need on providing energy to the rest of your body, including your brain. You wind this down, and your systems slows with the rest of you.
You can move without dancing. Dancing is a social feature, not a biological one.
Dancing is efficient as a physical activity and a physical exercise but not critical. Food is critical. Dancing with food scarcity is just a waste of vital calories to survive.
Very confused on how so many are arguing that dancing is more important than basic energy. Guess it shows who has really struggled in life.
> There was a wave of business plans and startups that tried to tackle this problem by building apartment communities that are more “social”. One that exists nowadays is https://www.flow.life/en/.
> But these businesses get it all wrong because they lack the communal kitchen and eating areas.
The problem as I see, given a choice, people rather eat/do/listen/feel things that they want, not the things they’re being forced on. In the past, you didn’t really have a choice and was forced to do what everyone is doing. Now, to live in such communities, you’ll have to get rid of the choice. Which also sucks.
>The problem as I see, given a choice, people rather eat/do/listen/feel things that they want, not the things they’re being forced on. In the past, you didn’t really have a choice and was forced to do what everyone is doing. Now, to live in such communities, you’ll have to get rid of the choice. Which also sucks.
In the communal situations you have choice. You prepay for the food per month and it works like a buffet. So to save money you should eat what's provided. But you have choice to forego it. This is very typical of dorm life in colleges and it leads to really close bonding with everyone on the floor.
Same. I live in a small/medium Canadian valley (about 76k spread between three towns in a rural district 3ish hours from anything that could be called a 'real city')
I regularly see live music accidentally just by showing up at various bars and breweries. We have several groups doing local theater. We have two multi-day music festivals in the summer, and at least a dozen more within a few hours drive.
There is plenty of live entertainment for those who want it. If I had to guess, I would say that there is maybe two nights per week where there isn't live music, but if you add in trivia nights, rec center activities, etc. You could easily fill your schedule any day of the week
I get what they're going for but live music specifically is very much available nationwide (US). You can see a live musician any night of the week in almost any locale. Maybe you won't like what's playing, but it's out there.
Gig musicians at non-music venues are definitely fewer but a lot of musicians still make their most consistent living playing regular gigs at bars and coffee shops and such.
Maybe it’s just a temporary thing, eventually people will get sick of AI and being marketed digitally at every breath they take. Old things do come back, you know?
Why are we making predictions on society based on hopes, anyway? If your goal is to find a cozy little dance floor and you're in a populated enough city, the you'll find whatever genre of dance you want with a small few core people. You just need to hope you like that core.
But that's not an option for everyone be it due to their living situation or the rising costs of everything.
Idk, someone is buying those tickets. I go to a dance party every month or so. But also… you are not forbidden from dancing. You can just do it. So if you want to go dancing and don’t, that’s on you.
No one is stopping me from just dancing alone in my house. I feel thst misses the social point of dancing though.
And again. Anecdotes. There's no dance parties in my town. I need to travel 40 minutes to another city and pay $20 for 3 hours of dancing every month. Not worth it for me in any regard.
"treflop" says he goes dancing regularly, in addition to various live music events. "freeone3000" says he goes to a dance party every month or so.
It sounds like your town just sucks, and you should move to one of their towns. You can't expect all towns across the country to be equally good for all interests.
I'd also need more than two opinions on unknown towns before I'd consider that. Maybe they're both on San Francisco paying 3x in rent. Literally can't afford that move.
I mean, this of course is just a casual conversation on an internet forum, so I don't seriously mean you should pack up right now and move to one of those two towns just because of dancing. But my larger point is that different places offer different things, and some places just aren't going to be very good for certain cultural interests (like dancing). America's a big place, and if you don't really like the place you're in, I don't think it's that productive to say "activity X is really bad these days" just because it's bad in your area, and some other areas that some article claims based on anecdotes. It may even be the case that it really is worse, on average, than several decades ago. But there's surely places where it's fine, so if the area you're in doesn't meet your expectations for cultural activities, perhaps you should start looking around for a new place.
>I don't think it's that productive to say "activity X is really bad these days" just because it's bad in your area
Then why is it okay to say the opposite and ignore the average experience? I don't understand the double standard here. If we base anything on extremes everything sounds amazing or awful.
And I wasn't speaking for myself. I'm simply referencing the article where someone took the time and effort to make an entire book based on this phenomenon. What compelling reason do I have to take these commenter's words over the authors? (no offense to the commentors).
>so if the area you're in doesn't meet your expectations for cultural activities, perhaps you should start looking around for a new place.
If that's important enough to you, sure. But this feels like a very unsympathetic and potentially non-viable solution for most of the population.
We're not all single people with 6 months of saving ready to not renew an apartment lease. Some people have families, some people need to be around certain scenes to get steady work, some people can't afford to move, etc. Everyone has passions but most people won't throw their lives away to pursue that passion.
e.g. I want to one day seriously study art, but the circus of a job search, paying off my debt, and rebuffering my savings comes before I start browsing for classes. Proper responsible living means delaying your immediate urges and passions to keep yourseof afloat.
>someone took the time and effort to make an entire book based on this phenomenon
People have taken the time and effort to write entire books about all kinds of complete horseshit; there's plenty of books with all kinds of medical quackery like homeopathy, for instance, fad diets, I could go on and on. Someone writing a book about something doesn't mean there's any reality to it at all.
Honestly, I think it would be extremely difficult to assess the state of live music in America these days compared with some past time decades ago, in a fair and unbiased way. It's not like it's something the census keeps track of. The best you can probably do is anecdotes, and then you might as well listen to the commenters here too. Even anecdotes are suspect, since peoples' perceptions differ: an older person who enjoyed dance style A 30 years ago might say "there's no dancing here any more!" if style A is out of vogue, and style B is now popular among young people he has no contact with.
>We're not all single people with 6 months of saving ready to not renew an apartment lease. Some people have families
Many decades ago, Americans used to be more mobile than they are now. They absolutely would pack up their entire family and move many states away. Now it seems Americans don't do that much. Here's a relatively recent NYT article about it: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/20/us/american-workers-movin...
Decades ago? The country was started by people who left the old country,
sometimes bring wives and children with them, sometimes later, sometimes never. The Oregon trail featured entire families that moved. Moving is an integral part of America's history.
I don't think that contradicts my prior claim. Yeah, people really moved at great expense and risk in the Oregon Trail days, and sometimes died of cholera (at least that always happened to me when I played the game on the Apple ][).
But I was really focusing on more recent times than that: it was still true within many peoples' lifetimes, though it wasn't nearly as risky as the covered wagon days.
>Honestly, I think it would be extremely difficult to assessthe state of live music in America these days compared with some past time decades ago, in a fair and unbiased way....The best you can probably do is anecdotes, and then you might as well listen to the commenters here too. Even anecdotes are suspect,
You realize how wishy-washy this sounds right? "authors write bad too just trust anecdotes. But anecdotes are bad too"
Do you have any sort of input here whatsoever or just want to say all data is fake? Yes, it could be a lie. But there's been enough researched literature on this that I'm inclined to agree.
And yes. You can in fact track this, even if it's not easy. Statistics rarely has the blessing of a Census. That why we have centuries of survey techniques to get close to it. Dismissing thst for a few anecdotes which you also didn't trust just feels contrarian for the sake of it.
> Now it seems Americans don't do that much.
I'm not surprised. I knew the reasons before I even opened your article:
> Slowdowns in the housing and job markets and delays in marriage and childbearing pushed their relocation rates down substantially.
>low-wage jobs, after adjusting for the local cost of living, pay about the same everywhere.
> the economy is now less flexible, with prosperity clustered in larger cities and with businesses and people moving less.
The funniest parts are these experts baffled why this is affecting everyone and not just younger people. Almost like they forgot moving isn't a free and easy endeavor and people stick to the familiar.
They didn't quite nail down that no one wants to move across the country only to be laid off in 6 months, but they are at least hitting the dartboard. You want people to be able to move? Pay them so they can live in wherever they move to. That simple.
Until then, we're stuck and losing buying power and won't uproot what stability we have left for hopes of finding a bar woth love music that may or may not cease doing so in the next year or two.
It seems like you’re in a community in need of this; you can be the organizer! You seem like you’re in a small enough community to not even need a permit! All you really need is a clear space and some music. Throw some adverts up on insta and some telephone poles and you’ve got yourself an event :)
>the shows I go to are packed and there are other people dancing
I would love to actually be able to dance/move at packed shows. Not to mention the absolutely lame rise of seated only shows. Orchestral music, ok, but sitting down at a rock show is neutering the experience for me.
With all due respect: you're commenting on a post of an article about the New Yorker about an entire book someone made about this phenomenon. Maybe the book is all anecdotes, but this isn't just your friend sitting around watching Netflix all day and wonder why everything is so boring. Clearly there's a larger societal issue.
I'm glad it works out for you, but you aren't society.
Was there ever really a time when people didn't sit at home for entertainment?
I think before radio, sitting around and reading a book was pretty normal. Back then a lot of people lived in places where visiting the neighbors was a lot harder than it is now.
I play in bands in a large metro area. 90% of our gigs are in smallish towns in the surrounding areas. I live in the center city and there are gigs one can attend, but compared to the population it's a really low number. Just in my immediate area almost 3/4 of the small venues from 20 years ago are gone.
This seems basic gentrification: in your smallish towns reasonably large venues still have reasonable operating costs and continue to offer live music, while in your center city bars and clubs are strangled by rent cost or rent expiration or insufficient profit margins. What is replacing them?
It's probably demographics to a large degree. A lot of people have families and family-related activities and they largely drop out of random socialization.
I'm not convinced that shifting away from general social activities is an especially recent phenomenon though it may be true that just leaving the kids at home with a babysitter/nanny/older relative when you went out may have been more common in the past.
Where do you live??? In my area is totally dead 30 miles in every direction. I would have to travel 45min to the city to find a place playing live music.
Australian city here and yeah you just have to know where to look. There aren't anywhere near as many indie/original artists as there were back in the 80-90's, but those were the heydays. Heaps of cover bands still if you want to dance to older stuff, and I notice some of them get a younger crowd. Then there are the music festivals etc.
> isn't social, it's a performance for an invisible audience.
I know what you wrote is fairly obvious but the wording really resonated with how I feel about social media platforms but couldn't quite word it so well.
When I was young (a long long time ago), my family would go up to stay at a ranch in Sierra County California. They had almost no TV or radio reception there -- you still can't get a cell signal at my cousins house. They would have a Friday night square dance that was like a school dance that teens actually attended and danced together, without much irony. Coming from San Francisco it seemed a little weird, even then. It seems so old fashioned now but I really treasure that I got to participate in what people used to do on the western frontier of the US.
My wife was maid of honor (we weren't married yet) at her college roommate's wedding. I danced with several of their friends at the reception; one taught me to two-step (it was in San Antonio). I taught her basic swing. There was exactly zero romantic involvement; I was there with my girlfriend, for heaven's sake. But she was nice, she was fun, and we just chatted as we went through the dances. Got a couple of her funny college stories out of that. And that's what it's about: having an excuse to be physically close to someone else, doing an enjoyable activity that rewards skill, and to gossip a little. We, like all apes, are social animals. We're happier when we do that.
And in 20 or so years people will lament the loss of dancing to an invisible but captivated audience, I'm sure, just like they currently lament the loss of Vine and Myspace.
I agree but would like to point out that I have seen several groups of dancers practicing K-pop dance or something I don't know outside of Sydney convention center recently. So it seems there is still a social circle where people dance but not ballroom or salsa.
That's what the old men shouting at clouds always think.
"Social connection" and "micro-dopamine hits" are two different phrases for the same thing. Connections through social media apps can be every bit as deep and genuine as those made through standing in the same building.
It's not particularly deep and genuine to double-tap to add a heart emoji to a video of a skimpily dressed complete stranger you "met" 5 seconds ago and will never see again unless Tiktok's algorithms think that would result in greater ad revenue.
It's exactly as deep and genuine as saying hi to a stranger in a bar (and if you think the barman is any less profit-oriented than the Tiktok algorithm you're naive) or whatever the back-in-your-day paradigm was.
Liking a video (and if all your videos are booty shakes from first trap influencers that says more about you than about the platform) might end you up in an interesting conversation, getting laid, finding a life partner, all sorts of things.
Saying hi to a stranger in a bar is exceedingly unlikely to result in any of these.
counterpoint: in any given bar interacting with a stranger means this stranger is interacting with you. If the stranger is tapping out, then you are free to go interact with other people.
1:1 interacters to interactee ratio.
In any given social network this ratio is very screwed. Most people have to became interacters at least a couple of times before they can become an interactee.
What? I’m sorry but this is just nonsense. There’s no way liking a video is more likely to result in those things than having a face to face interaction so someone
I met a friend of a friend in a bar last week. He just ran the NYC marathon and some girl he barely knew but thought was cute liked his Instagram photo. He decided to shoot his shot, and asked her to drinks and she accepted.
There is a reason people “sliding into the DMs” is a term. It usually starts with liking posts and later moves into DMs. That same guy also showed me that he also slid into the DMs with some other woman and has another first date scheduled.
Social media is super important for the younger generation and their social life.
A shallow interaction is unlikely to lead to something deeper but occasionally things line up and it becomes the start of a beautiful friendship. That's equally true on social media or AFK.
Maybe introducing yourself in-person is slightly deeper than thumbs-upping someone's video, but by the same token the latter is a smaller step; you can always go with a full-sentence comment or a video response of your own if you want the slightly deeper interaction.
Shallow interactions are shallow, deep interactions are deep, equally shallow interactions are equally shallow whether online or offline and the same for equally deep interactions. I'm not going to argue about what specific action corresponds to the precise depth of pushing like, whether it's saying "hi", grunting, making eye contact, or what have you; both online and offline you have a spectrum of ways to interact and having both shallow and deep options available is important, because you wouldn't want to start at the deep end with a stranger; you start with something shallow and most of the time it stays shallow but occasionally you find it worthwhile to turn it into something deeper.
In public shallow interactions don’t need to stay that way. It’s not a question of the possibility of levels of interaction but the rates.
Many people can go to a bar and fairly reliably get laid several times a month. That’s simply not possible for the overwhelming majority of people using TikTok. TikTok / Twitter/ Instagram etc are designed to be shallow interaction so people stick around. Dating apps fill that niche, but also want people to come back.
Being in public allows for the full range of relationships in any setting. You can meet a great friends at a bar etc.
This argument doesn't hold on a pure numbers basis. If you are one of 10 people to make eyes contact with someone at the bar, you are already in a far more privileged position than being the person who added one of a million likes to a video.
In forms of social media that existed primarily to produce inter-personal connections (i.e. very early Facebook, or maybe even LinkedIn) your argument works significantly better, but the way that instagram/tiktok/etc prioritise influencers in your feed makes the likelihood of 1-to-1 interactions infinitesimally low (unless you yourself are also playing the influencer game)
I mean. I can't small talk to save my life. But saying high to a stranger will at least get me 10 seconds of communication unless they are excessively rude (or you are). That's not going to happen on modern social media.
Someone much more charismatic in the right scene certainly can do such things more consistently. What's the equivalent here, Tinder dates? I wonder which is more effective for that tip charismatic male? (it's no doubt women are wayyy more successful on dating apps. Too successful).
I’ve talked to hundreds of people at bars around the world, and although I don’t remember their names, I can recall general conversations with each of them. I can’t recall anything that I’ve tapped-liked off the top of my head, because it’s very short and one-sided interaction.
Well, saying hi isn't deep at some meat market bar. But I remember in my younger days that my now-wife and I went to the same bar often enough that we knew most of the regulars, and she was talking to someone we knew well, so I was on my own.
I chatted up a woman who was probably 20 years my senior, and the two of us had grown up in the same neighborhood in that city separated only by time. We had a wonderful conversation for an hour or so. My now-wife came over at one point, I said we were having a conversation about my neighborhood, and she said, oh, you people always find each other (it was pretty distinctive in the city, and yes, we really did find each other). Now-wife walked away and went back to the others she had been hanging out with. I knew the exact house this woman had grown up in (it was one block away from where I was living at the time), having ridden my bicycle past it hundreds of times as a kid, and just listened to the stories of what it had been like then.
Except that TikTok dancing does not create those connections. It is just something that does not happen.
Standarding in the same building does not create then either. People talking in groups and one-to-one, people meeting the same people regularly does. That is what dancing was.
If you are talking about connections between people who both create content on the network, sure - however, the vast majority of users only consume content.
Can be. But it's like a long distance relationship. We already know from decades of offline phenomenon that constant physical connect is a must for a healthy, strong connection. Yes, some people have the discipline to make it work. Most don't.
And that's been my experience online. Lots of neat niche connections with people I'd never meet IRL. But you'd be surprised how quickly that connect can sever when that person leaves the community, even if you keep trying to reach out.
But i don't know, maybe this gen Z figured out something this boomer Millenial and other older generations couldn't. I'm open to being wrong.
Some teen dancing on a streaming service is very different from a venue charging admission and beverages for a couple hundred people spending an evening out.
it looks more like complex twitching or precise execution of an acrobatic program but lacking the soul which would qualify it as dancing. more like little robots trying to dance.
> This is a technology problem. Media technology (radio, recordings, television, and movies) has essentially killed live performance of all kind compared to what it was once like.
Not sure I agree, or maybe just partly. Radio has been around for over a hundred years. Movies too. Bars and hotels have been able to play recorded music on cassette, then CD, now streaming, for at least 70 years.
This decline of the working musician is a much more recent phenomenon.
Radio and TV have not had the addictive effects that 'social media' has on many. So many people of all ages struggle to put their phone down for an extended amount of time. So many choose to scroll or swipe instead of socializing outside/with others.
What is that idea that people don't dance? How and where people dance change, but people still dance. Example are:
- Professional dancers, and other performers with a dance component
- Partner dancers, who usually do in in some sort of club
- Partygoers, going to night clubs, music festivals and raves
- Fitness, doing aerobics or whatever name the latest "dance as exercise" thing has
- People in house parties, dancing with friends for birthdays, new years,...
- People dancing in front of a camera, for some social media
- Street dancers
- People just dancing alone at home
Maybe there are less balls with live musicians, but there are new trends related to dancing. Remember flash mobs? Where people just get together, dance for a few minutes and leave. And TikTok, one of the most popular social network today was built on people doing silly dances, and it is still a major component.
Technology definitely plays into it. As an aside, I stopped in an a old bar recently that was long known for regularly having live jazz and the bartender mentioned that they hadn't had live music since the covid lockdowns.
Organised dancing is no more "critical" than cursive. Every generation thinks their version of entertainment and social bonding was better and what the kids are doing is inferior and dumb.
And the reason young people are doing less in-person socialisation is less because home entertainment has gotten better and more because in-person socialisation has gotten worse, especially in America where people have nowhere they could socialise in walking distance, can't afford a car (and would get arrested for drunk driving if they could), can't afford to get molested in a techbro fake taxi, and if they tried to cycle they'll get run down by a boomer in a giant truck who was playing candy crush.
There are some great recordings of music out there but fundamentally their sum is worthless up against a society where there is music and dance being performed all the time.
Maybe modern medicine and food abundance is worth it but the imitation of art is a poor substitute.
I can assert that on the European cities I move around, there is usually some kind of Salsa club, eventually extending to other themes like Tango, Bachata, Kizomba, Zouk,...
Those genres of music/dance require you to actually learn how to do them properly. The music is also not very popular. Personally I love listening to your two examples, but my point stands.
Indeed, during my parents generation, the big cities had huge dance halls that were filled every weekend, if not every weekday too. My parents remember going to those places, as did my in-laws. In fact, I got a gig with a band that had been a major touring group in the past, and mentioned it to my in-laws. They said: Oh yeah, we danced to that band in the 50s. They frequented the ballrooms that dotted the Chicago suburbs.
Of course I credit it to people being cooler back then.
And one of my relatives remembers from her early childhood the music scene in pre-war Berlin. There was an opera on practically every corner. And movie theaters. Those are virtually gone too.
Today I play music for a folk dance group, and they have weekly dances, but a dozen people showing up is a lot.
I think it's less people cooler and more they didn't care. There is too much pressure to be cool now. The now ingrained trope joke that white people can't dance doesn't help. If I'm a young white male the last thing I'm going to do to impress young women is the thing reinforced over and over that I suck at/makes me a joke.
Indeed, and this is reinforced by a couple of stereotypes. These are repeated in web forums frequented by musicians: People won't dance to a tune that is not absolutely familiar -- why a small handful of "classic rock" hits continue to be played. Second, the purpose of the music is to keep the women dancing, and the purpose of the women dancing is to keep the men drinking.
Disclosure: I've played in a lot of bands, in a variety of styles.
Not caring about what others think you look like is about as close as you can get to a definition of “cool”!
If you’re a young white male worried about being seen dancing because of a stereotype that’s a problem with you; dance is human heritage and everyone’s allowed to do it. I genuinely believe the whole “white people can’t dance!” thing is rooted in white people being self-conscious because they’ve been dancing to black music for the last 100 years instead of waltzing to the classics, not to mention the comparatively censorious attitude towards dance in White America versus Black America. Be the change etc. etc.
Come on, you know what definition of 'cool' I meant.
When a culture ridicules something it's not the person facing ridicule's fault for doing it less. Not a good faith take at all, and I doubt you would apply that take to other situations. Especially when we are discussing why people stopped doing something.
Having been a young white male ridiculed/joked about, I believe it's rooted in the actual countless jokes/ridicule/and mocking, not some weird white guilt. Again I don't think you would make this argument apologizing for ridicule in other situations. Young people have shown they don't care about arbitrary racial lines people like you want to emplace when it comes to the music, so why dancing?
The only place I was accepted and encourage was at Salsa clubs. I think in huge part because it didn't have the American cultural stigma of 'white boys can't dance', it just had 'let's all friggin dance'.
Just to add a less personal response, we are discussing possible reasons for why the decline. Not sure how 'suck it up buttercup' and 'be the change' adds to that analysis. I don't know any other situations that's a useful response. It's the equiv of 'Women just need to suck it up and deal with the tech bro boys club if they want to be represented in tech' when talking about why women are underrepresented it tech.
This is all true, but irrelevant to the article linked above, which is specifically about gig musicians in bands in the early 21st Century—long after the change you’re talking about.
Bands are actually playing more live music today than they did back then, to help replace the revenue they used to get from recorded music.
Regular dancing (Tango classes, practicas and milongas 3-4 times per week) has been an indispensable contributor to keeping my sanity as a single person.
When I stop for more than a couple of weeks my vitality and zest for life clearly diminish.
I don't think this is it. At least, you're not pointing your ire at the right tech.
Instrumental acts aren't as popular as they once were. In the cities recorded beats make up more than half the gig. These are performed by a musician on a laptop. They might have dancers, for some entertainment. So the gig pool is lessened. The article so much admits the stars, as they call them, made the most money off of Band People. They had more gigs, so they could cobble together a career. Music has always been a precarious living.
Then add in the downturn of nightlife in general. Restaurants and bars tell the same story: young people aren't drinking. Businesses built on already slim margins are getting squeezed beyond break even. Is an indy band going to make up the difference in admission or cost-to-perform to a struggling bar? Dubious. If they have a following maybe; but then those artist aren't struggling anyway.
Young people are also making less money at a time when prices are sky high. A night out drinking even just a couple of beers can easily surge to over a hundred or two hundred dollars depending how hard you go. When I was in college that would've been ~$30-40. For every 3 times I went out with friends, they can afford only 1.
Live music and performance offers an experience that passive consumption, like TV and Radio, just can't emulate. If the prices come down the economics of music will make sense again. Until then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Having lived in NYC, Broadway, off broadway, off off broadway etc. look like they are thriving. I don’t think recorded media comes even close to the novelty and spectacle a theatre production is. Have small towns really lost all their theatres?
New York City is the greatest concentration of wealth on the planet. The continuation of theatre there should come as no surprise.
I am speaking of the cultural shift in entertainment, from a variety of local live options on most days of the week to just television in most places across the country.
I should also emphasize that the persistence of community theatres that mostly recycle the classics (endless Shakespeare, Andrew Lloyd Webber, and The Crucible) is not a substitute for actual thriving local entertainment, but a shadow and a memory of what once was.
It's not that they lost all of them, but that they make far less money, while the top performers in NYC do well.
It's not unlike what happened to soccer as television got cheaper and cheaper: You can go watch your town's third division team, or you can watch Real Madrid play on TV. In 3rd division nobody can be professional, in 2nd division you make less money accounting for inflation than 30 years ago, but the top players in the top teams are even bigger stars, now that the entire world can watch them play every game.
And on theater, let's not forget that many parts of the spectacle are almost impossible to take on the road. You aren't going to feed a production of Phantom of the Opera in a small town for 3 months: National tours rely on 2 weeks per large-ish metro. And when you are only going to stay there for 2 weeks, there are things you just can't get away with, economically speaking. The equity Hadestown tour would need to remodel way too much to accoout for the lift on broadway. The non-equity tour, which plays even shorter windows, can't even rely on the turntable on the floor. The car in Back to the future isn't going to fly over the audience, do half as much movement, or get fire effects on the scenario.
And even if you look in Broadway itself, many don't recoup their own costs. For every Hamilton or Lion king there are many shows that don't last 6 months.
I think it's more accurate to say it became a "premium". I could probably find some live music at a rinky dink mom-and-pop cafe in a far out suburb even as late as the 90's if I tried.
By now, that prestige of a live music seems to only really come from a bigger joint, or as more of a passion project than as an expected way to get customers in.
>Have small towns really lost all their theatres?
It's mostly a thing regulated to colleges. So it will depend on that. I haven't seen a smaller town without a college that still has traditional theatre around, personally. Though I have seen forums where that scene would obviously have hosted such events, abandoned.
I see small venues that regularly host live music all over the place. It definitely drives business for the bars, but there doesn't seem to be much money in it for the musicians.
The increase in real estate costs severely limits the opportunities for musicians to play live. I've seen some cover bands randomly at bars, but it's rough out there.
I also remember in my youth in Miami there were numerous clubs just for different genres of music for Hardcore, Ska, punk and everything in between where people would play local shows. It's all but dead now.
The town I live in has 6000 people and there's a play or live music event in the town hall every couple of weeks, maybe more often in summer. I don't go to many, one or two a year, but presumably enough people turn out.
> Have small towns really lost all their theatres?
Yes.
I spent the first half of my life as a working actor, and this has been a decades-long process. By "my day" ('90s - '00s) I looked at CVs and heard stories from older actors and said "there was a theatre [by which I meant somewhere that offered paying work] there?"
Summer-stock, where I did a lot of gigs in my twenties, is nothing like what it was then, and I'm sure I would get that response from young actors now, if they heard my stories. Even the larger venues are on life-support. CalShakes closed down this summer. OSF is struggling.
Many places have community theatres, but those are like garage bands: hobbies, pursued for recreation and socialization, where no one draws a wage or has professional aspirations. (And, you know, the vast majority of the attendees have personal ties to the cast and crew.)
I do improvisational comedy, which is a form of theater. it's a niche thing where I will see basically the same faces around town, and that's in a major metropolitan area.
Fellow hobby improviser here (Sydney, Australia). My impression so far is similar: I'd say about a 5-10% rate of new faces attending shows and related gigs.
Comedy festival shows are a slightly different story, but I'm not sure how effectively they lead to new recurring audience members.
I also see venue sizes and hire as one of the largest risks/problems with greater popularity. Venue hire is expensive AF, but smaller gigs in places like pubs suffer all the same problems as described in the article.
A show has to be significant enough for someone to turn off Netflix, Spotify or a podcast AND leave the house AND commute to a venue, for MULTIPLE people*, all at the same time.
* I assume most people go to shows with other people, unless they're already embedded in the community.
One of the most culturally developed and wealthiest places on earth has lots of live spectacles..
Color me shocked.
On the other hand, I my 150k people city in southern Poland there was no shortage of entertainment, theaters, dance halls and parties 50 years ago under the communist regime.
My grandparents partied all of the time, their pictures are an endless collection of parties, literally people bringing a sausage, a potato salad, few vodkas to some elementary school or industry plant warehouse and having fun from 6 pm to late at night. They went to see live boxing, soccer games, theater, concerts, movies.
I'm 37 none of my friends lives like that, none. There are many more restaurants, probably 20 times as many.
I'm strongly convinced that people used to have more fun once.
My grandma thinks 100% the same. She constantly wonders why are people much better now under any measurable metric like education or wealth, yet they seem to really do nothing in their life.
wow oh wow what a great comment. I think the reason dance went away is a lot of men engaged in predatory behavior while drunk, that is that would approach the woman from behind and "grind" himself on her which is really just sexual assault.
I often think about how we replace things with technology and say it's better. Bread is another example in my opinion. Towns used to have bread makers, well respected and well paid. Now, at least here in the USA we replaced the bread makers with machines. We got rid of the bread makers and ultimately replaced them with engineers who design the machines and repair men. Even they've been replaced, once designed there's no need for the engineer and it's often cheaper to buy than repair so the repair man too went away. What we're left with is subpar bread. How is any of this progress?
I suspect you can make better bread more consistently with machines.
But that would requires trying to make good bread. Not trying to make something passable for an American (and barely edible for a French) with the highest profit margin.
It would have once been unthinkable for even a small city of <=100,000 people to lack multiple live entertainment options 7 days a week. No more—we’re all at home, watching our particular chosen thing, listening to our particular chosen album, playing our own chosen game.
Some will claim this has been an advancement. “How lame,” they say, “it must have been to have to go to the Local Entertainment Venue and just listen to whatever act was on that night. Nowadays I can listen to Acid Techno Super Hop, my particular chosen favorite, as much as I want.” But the losses in communal behavior have been significant. Most critical is the disappearance of dance. Dance is a fundamental human behavior, stretching back to Paleolithic times. It is nowhere to be seen in many cities today, because no one has any occasion to do it except weddings, at which it is very common now to stand around awkwardly after the bride and groom have fumbled through some rehearsed step.