I think these debates wind up missing the middle zone, partially because there's not a one size fits all in terms of teams and scope relative to a company. Specifically the issue I've found is that while I agree Product needs to be steering the ship, that Product Representatives find their way too far down the hierarchy.
Or another way of looking at it: On a typical team one often finds a PO, Scrum Master, and a Tech Lead. The PO reports upwards to a broader PM. The TL reports upwards to a broader EM. I'd contend those are 3 people filling the duties of what should be 1 or 2 people's worth of duties.
Imagine there's a PM at a company responsible for some portion of a/the product. And suppose there are 3 dev teams working towards it. In my mind there should be a PM for that product, detailing the what and (idealized) when. They're the ones talking to customers, coordinating with other PMs in the company, etc.
But their involvement with engineering should end at the sprint level. Instead what I've found is there's often a lower level "PO" who attends daily standups, will debate micro-level prioritization (do this before that), etc. And to me this really should be at the team/team lead level to decide. What's more, I've pretty much *never* seen this "PO" persona do any outward facing customer work - they're almost always just representatives of the broader PM organization.
As an engineer and engineering lead who has complained about product, *this* is what I'm complaining about. You're 100% correct that I don't want to be deep diving into the product side of the fence. But I'm usually in tune well enough that I don't need 2-3 layers of Product Bureaucracy between my team and the people who are doing said deep dive.
Or another way of looking at it: On a typical team one often finds a PO, Scrum Master, and a Tech Lead. The PO reports upwards to a broader PM. The TL reports upwards to a broader EM. I'd contend those are 3 people filling the duties of what should be 1 or 2 people's worth of duties.
Imagine there's a PM at a company responsible for some portion of a/the product. And suppose there are 3 dev teams working towards it. In my mind there should be a PM for that product, detailing the what and (idealized) when. They're the ones talking to customers, coordinating with other PMs in the company, etc.
But their involvement with engineering should end at the sprint level. Instead what I've found is there's often a lower level "PO" who attends daily standups, will debate micro-level prioritization (do this before that), etc. And to me this really should be at the team/team lead level to decide. What's more, I've pretty much *never* seen this "PO" persona do any outward facing customer work - they're almost always just representatives of the broader PM organization.
As an engineer and engineering lead who has complained about product, *this* is what I'm complaining about. You're 100% correct that I don't want to be deep diving into the product side of the fence. But I'm usually in tune well enough that I don't need 2-3 layers of Product Bureaucracy between my team and the people who are doing said deep dive.