Only thing I fail to understand is why a hacker needs to know where to buy estrogen… I can more easily take the idea of hacker knowing how to cook Molotov cocktails.
This is only an example of the type of thing a hacker would do- a hacker is willing to solve problems on their own on their own even if it requires methods that are illegal, dangerous, or complex.
A lot of people throw their hands up and give up when they need an expensive medication they can't get prescribed but in general you can often buy them overseas, grey market, make them yourself, etc.
What a person "needs" is complex and individual. Unless you are their doctor or are paying for it, your opinion of what medications a person needs is irrelevant- it is absolutely none of your business.
This nit-picking is in no way central to my point as it was a general statement about hacker culture ethos not any particular person or medication, so why did you post it? With only two comments so far - It appears you joined HN just to share anti-trans bigotry? That isn't okay. This is not a "hate forum" - accepting people that are different is a fundamental aspect of hacker and HN culture.
@awooooo - nonsense, you have people minding their own business and being themselves, and you don't approve so you are insulting them, and trying to say they need to hide who they are or be different. That is just plain old bigotry. Being trans doesn't hurt of affect other women in any way.
I'm willing to bet you are different in some way that isn't acceptable to others, so you feel the need to hide it out of fear, or hoping for acceptance. It's true of most people, and the fact that people need to hide themselves is awful.. and what you are contributing to here.
I'm not trans but I am neurodivergent in a way that I can't hide, and was bullied and attacked for being different a lot of my life. Bigots that only know of one way people can be different would call me "queer" when they cornered me in the school hallway in groups to try to hurt me. Luckily for me, I'm a strong guy, and even being in groups they usually had a worse time of it than I did. I understand what that is like, and don't wish it on anyone. I want a world where people can mind their own business as themselves without hiding and without awful people trying to shame or attack them.
Estradiol valerate (which is what the article actually names) seems to be used for a wide variety of female reproductive health issues, especially when (as the article suggests) it's compounded with other drugs. It's also used by transgender people as a hormone therapy. A hacker might live in a place where gender-affirming healthcare is illegal or unavailable, or where female reproductive healthcare in general is difficult or expensive to obtain.
Reproductive healthcare is much more broadly useful than Molotov cocktails.
It's hard to say what the motivation for the estrogen is but it's a case study in pharma-bro-ing type hobbies which is fine. Life extension nootropics and such. It could be a menopausal woman juicing up. It could also be a biological male who identifies as a female, which was big tech's engineering solution as far as how to get more women in tech (turns out, innovative solution, it's easier to retrofit male programmers as females than it is to convince your average woman to sit alone in a cubicle all day fighting against a pedantic and buggy compudah) - don't announce that at google, however, or you'll be punted out next day and end up needing to settle it for a few million.
There have been hypotheses that a significant number of trans women (i.e. biological men who identify as women) are actually on the autism spectrum. Considering natural tendency of autistic people to prefer isolated activities and puzzles, there may be a correlation between hackers and trans women.
As with any novel phenomena, especially in sociology, it is very hard to provide tangible evidence for anything. If you demand nobody speaks of anything of sort without hard evidence, rarely anything would ever be said.
it is very hard not to observe said tendency, though really I was hoping that it was just that programmers always been rich enough to undergo transition. is this still true, though, perhaps now you can be jobless and still somehow apply for transition? depending on GPS coordinates, of course, but possible here and there.
this mentioning of potential trans-paraphernalia in an article calling to all hackers is a little misleading (imho), biased perhaps, or even influential. it is a statement i guess.
back in our teen hacker days we heard stories of ppl building molotovs, credit card scammers, eavesdropping equipment, lock-pick etc. but biohacking and female hormonal medicine in particular has definitely not been on the list (that much) if memory serves right... and my bet is that Phrack back-archive can confirm it.
perhaps it is a logical to see a change in popular understanding what hackers can find, or do, or are defined by. curiosity and daring courage to intrude is one thing, we can all agree.
perhaps also we may agree that hacking one's body is still hacking, as social engineering IS considered hacking.
Even if this is true, it need not be either-or. Saying that they are 'actually' autistic seems to imply that you do not believe that they are 'actually' trans.
For what it's worth, I didn't mean "actually" in an either-or sense, but more in an unexpected-correlation sense. I tend to avoid ontological discussions on this topic.
English is not my native language, I sometimes miss the subtleties.
What’s with this ‘biological men’ stuff? How would you define that and what about chromosomal abnormalities like XXY or XYY people? If I have Jacob’s syndrome and a penis am I biologically male or something else entirely? Explain.
If you just want to have silly ideas about trans people, that’s fine because I’m done arguing with people over that. It’s a huge waste of time to get that interested in another person’s genitals but you do you. However if you’re going to use something as silly as ‘biological male’ you have to support that.
A few years ago I freaked out the Reddit moderators on a sub called /r/bodymods , which was, ostensibly, about modifying your body, when I asked about the feasibility of doing ones own liposuction.
I'm not saying that's a good or bad idea from a medical perspective, but I certainly was off-put by their hypocrisy at shutting me down and their myopic definition of "body mods" which apparently to them was just poking holes in their face.
Unless you think/say/repeat the same things as everyone else on a subreddit you get downvoted and shadowbanned. It has the most aggressive and militant groupthink culture I've seen anywhere, which makes it pretty useless for trying to learn new things or share new ideas.
If you have any type of niche hobby for example, and someone finds a new and better way of doing something, they will pretty much universally be attacked and censored.
That part is definitely not aimed at every reader, but it is appropriately used to highlight how some might circumvent the lengthy legal processes involved in getting estrogen. Moreover, it points to the possible need for them to compound it themselves which in turn makes them a hacker.
Trans folks may in general possess qualities that make them better hackers, but they certainly aren't the only ones, so I wouldn't call hacker culture inherently trans.
That would imply that non-trans people are somehow outsiders, which is contrary to the hacker philosophy, which respects merit and skill, regardless of the person's identity.
> Hacker culture is inherently antiauthoritarian, therefore queer and leftist. If you have a problem with queer leftists in your hacker community, you are the problem and need to leave.
> Leadership in the hacker community doesn't look like RMS or ESR anymore. The culture is queer, trans, furry, neurodiverse.
> Hacker culture is queer, furry, neurodiverse. Deal with it.
> Hacker culture is queer now, and queer, kinky (but SSC) sex is an integral part of that.
> Hacker culture is trans/furry/otaku/plural/neuroqueer. Get used to it.
> The tech sector and hacker culture are increasingly queered.
> Times have changed. Social justice is now a core part of hacker ideals.
I don't recognize these claims either. The hackers I know are much more diverse in identity and belief than the narrow subculture described above.
Hacker culture has changed in the past ten years or so. The lodestar is no longer ESR's Jargon File, nor the GNU Manifesto, nor Steven Levy's Hackers. They're just ideals of what we think hacker culture should be, but that's not how hacker culture is actually practiced (if it ever was).
As more and more queer and trans people have gotten involved with hacker culture, they've brought queer and trans political and philosophical thinking with them and with it, a new orientation. They're sort of terraforming the hacker space to make it more comfortable and welcoming to people like them. I mean Mara Bos, a leading developer in the Rust ecosystem, states that her goal is to "make the Rust standard library more gay". Cishets are still welcome, of course, inasmuch as they give due respect to queer and other marginalized people in the community and do not express regressive opinions about the same.
The Q in LGBTQ can stand for Queer, or it can stand for Questioning; and maybe that's the basic mindset of queer theory that's applicable here: to question everything, especially your assumptions, and examine critically the social constructs that are intrinsic to the environment in which you live and work. Especially give thought to who is centered and who is marginalized by your efforts.
Allison Parrish does a great job of explaining this attitude in her talk "Programming is Forgetting: Towards a New Hacker Ethic":
She and Parrish are probably the most prominent exponents of what constitute the new norms of hacker culture. Oh, and uh, both are trans women.
That's the thing: Hacker culture never was as inclusive as people claimed it was. It was still oriented around the cishet white male nerd; inasmuch as others outside that template were allowed to participate, it was made more difficult for them because of the cishet-white-male-nerd-oriented assumptions and norms that were intrinsic to the community (as Parrish elucidates with her example about Margaret Hamilton being unable to assemble her programs on the surreptitiously modified PDP-1). That's what's changing.
Remember, traditional hacker culture could never exist without vast sums of DARPA money to supply funding for the equipment, resources, payroll, etc. It only came about because the military-industrial complex wanted the missile to know where it is as it hurtled through the sky on its way to blow up thousands or millions of Others. It is inadequate as a general framework that allows for talented people regardless of background to make a contribution. The queer hackers are attempting to modernize this framework to better meet the goal of welcoming valuable contributions regardless of the contributor's identity, using their experience as outcasts among outcasts.
We could argue about the history of hacker culture and its inclusivity, but it would most likely be just a series of proofless claims from both sides. I personally have never seen or heard of a person rejected from any hacker clique because of their sexual orientation. I've heard of a few having their contributions refused for trying to push political agenda [0], but then again it wasn't their identity that was refused, only the contributions related to advertising that identity.
I don't feel like the neo-queer-hacker culture you're discribing is particularly welcome to anyone who disagrees with them. I've heard of multiple instances of people calling for bans of people who said something they disagree with [2]. That is completely opposite of "inclusive". Inclusivity only matters when it includes people you disagree with.
> Coraline Ada Ehmke slew the meritocracy buddha in 2018
It doesn't surprise me that a person who hasn't shown much skill or merit is arguing against meritocracy. It is in her own interest to do so.
I'd say queer/trans subcultures are hacker/DIY friendly, but not necessarily the other way around.
I'd say hacker culture tends to be accepting of individualism and diversity, but the vast majority of people in hacker culture have no affiliation with, or knowledge of queer/trans subcultures.
Would like to see that explored more. I think I get where you're going, but which statement is more true: "hacker culture is inherently queer" or "hacker culture is inherently anti-authoritarian"?
Because I'm thinking it's maybe more like "Both queer culture and hacker culture are inherently anti-authoritarian, so they have many points of concordance".
But then I start thinking around the problem, and I think about the amount of privilege inherent in that white-boy-from-the-suburbs 80s/90s hacker thing ("fifty thou a year'll buy a lot of beer") and I start to wonder if the gulf is maybe a bit deeper than it first appears.
Where does the cyberpunk/libertarian stuff fit in with queer culture, which IME is a lot more communal?
I don't know. I think it's a really interesting line of inquiry.
(Edit: you've been flagged. What the actual fuck?)
Ironically, as a homosexual female, I consider modern queer culture authoritarian as hell. It's really big on there being one way to interpret the world, one way to build/structure your identity, one set of 'correct' opinions, trying to convince you to cut off people who aren't in the Good People Club(TM), etc. This is just enforced via panopticon/mob surveillance rather than a centralized authority.
If anything, I'd consider modern (post-Obergefell) queer culture to be pretty hostile to hacker culture since hackerdom is partially about understanding systems and working them to whatever purposes you decide, whereas modern queer culture seems to be about finding a system that works for you and pledging allegiance to it.
A lot of my distaste/lack of fitting with queer culture right now stems from the conflicts between the values instilled in me as the child of hackers and the values of queer environments.
They were flagged because the comment was deliberately inflammatory and lacked any nuance - there is no way to spring-board from that comment into any kind of continued discussion. It was a comment that was only meant to virtue signal/push an agenda, not to promote discussion. HN tends to frown on that outside of specific aspects of techno-politics.
Looking at the history of the account that someone else posted, I think their intention was to be quite narrow in their comparison. I imagined they were working with a much more liberal definition of queer, more a synonym of "countercultural". I'd still like to see them flesh out their thoughts.
In a postmodern viewpoint (which has heavily influenced the development of queer theory and culture), most concepts are considered to be deeply intertwined with/defined by their social construction. Queerness, meaning same-sex/gender attraction and non-cisness, are defined as 'problems' in society because they subvert social norms. A postmodern/conceptual reading of queerness could state that the subversion is more integral to the concept of queerness than the actual details: For example, male crossdressing is seen as 'queerer' than female crossdressing because it's against the norm for men to wear women's clothing but not for women to wear men's clothing. What is considered queer enough to be 'queer' depends on social constructions. If queerness is defined by 'a lifestyle/way of being that is inherently transgressive of social norms, which are defined ipso facto by authorities (whomever they may be in a given culture)', then hackers' general stubbornness when it comes to doing things their way and refusing to bend to the easy/official way of doing things could be seen as 'queer'. Like a gay person who refuses a lavender marriage despite the social benefits it brings, a hacker may refuse conventional/well paying employment because they believe it violates who they are.
It's just, in my opinion, a stupid argument. I disagree on two key points:
1.) Not everything that is anti-authoritarian and contrary to the norm (and side-eyed for that reason) is 'queer'. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. The libertarians who want to abolish the age of consent are not 'queer'. The fundies who want there to be no educational oversight so they can break the 'norm' of having their kids learn history/science are not 'queer' even though they're both anti-authoritarian groups working against social norms. (Even most Christians send their children to school, and even most libertarians agree that having sex with 10 year olds is bad and should be illegal.) Hell, by that definition, TERFs would be queer inherently and I'm pretty sure OP wouldn't agree with that.
2.) Being homosexual/non-cis is not inherently against social norms and, in fact, the argument ignores that as the digital age allows for geographically distributed cultures, that the queer community itself propagates social norms for its members. (Many of which I disagree with, hence why I am so aware of them.) This is acknowledged with the term 'homonormativity' (e.g. to be a good gay, you have to be monogamous and married and act just like straight people, etc.). Breaking queer social norms carries the same penalties within the community as breaking greater society's social norms does - detransitioners are an interesting study group here.
Honestly, in my experience, the transgressive nature of queerness depends very much on a.) what type of queer you are [I'm picking up on the OP being trans-femme and they are generally seen as one of the more inherently transgressive types of queer, which likely influences their POV] and b.) what part of society you're in. I would actually consider my homosexuality to be one of the least transgressive aspects of my identity/behavior. My refusal to center romantic relationships/opting to operate in a long term household with a sibling is far more transgressive. My refusal to hide my disability and refusal to participate fully in/invest in my career because of it is far more transgressive. My refusal to care about my gender much and my choice to not pursue any kind of action to change my appearance to match my inner self (because I already have medical conditions and adding hormones/surgeries on top of that is a very unstable system + because as a visually impaired person I don't see why I should have to change how I look so the rest of you can feel more comfy with my gender presentation) is immensely transgressive in queer spaces because it suggests that gender/self validation is not exceptionally important to me/doesn't override other concerns. Etc.
I consider the main point of differentiation between queer culture and hacker culture to be about validation and interaction with broader society. Queer culture cares what society thinks: people in it want validation and acceptance and in fact, a lot of queer spaces now primarily function as validation/hugbox chambers, and I see a distressing lack of self-actualization and agency. Hackers overcorrect in the other direction: they're actively hostile to (at worst) or indifferent to (at best) the concerns of greater society. A hacker is generally expected to have a decent sense of self-worth/self-esteem, and going into hacking spaces and being asked to validate someone wouldn't be taken well. (It's really common to see 'am I really queer/trans enough? Am I really a lesbian? Please call me girl/boy things to help me experience gender euphoria' etc. in queer spaces, whereas 'I ran a script on someone's computer, please tell me I'm a 1337 haxxor so I don't get depressed' in hacker spaces would go over like a lead balloon). I'm not really claiming one is better than the other: I prefer hacker spaces ironically because I'm a fairly masculine woman and I despise being used as a validation/vent/therapy machine, but it also has its issues. Like since you're expected to have a rock solid sense of self, people slinging gross insults at you based on parts of your identity is something you're supposed to shake off or you're the sensitive one. I'm totally chill at being called a moron/flamed for stupid questions and suggestions, but as someone who was once a teenaged lesbian, things like the corrective rape threats were over the line.
Unfortunately, it's unlikely we'll know exactly what they meant. The comment was constructed like a Tweet or Tumblr post meant to rally the troops/get 'yaaas queen slay' type responses. An actual desire to discuss would have included things like their reasoning, where they got their information, and/or indications of how sure they were about different parts. And they would have tailored their response to their audience. (I certainly write differently here than I do elsewhere - I would not call myself a 'homosexual female' elsewhere, but HN has a strong preference for technically descriptive terms and doesn't generally ascribe as many inferences to them, so I used those words here.) Instead, it was just blanket 'X is true and I will not elaborate I'm so smrt' type posting.
*edited 'associate' to 'ascribe' because MS aphasia is a bitch and I mix up words now
And you said that comment couldn't be a spring-board for continued discussion :)
That was chewy. I can't give it the reply it deserves (not least because I haven't walked in those shoes), but I think "transgressive" is absolutely the key word here. Thank you for surfacing it. I, personally, do not believe hacking is transgressive. For evidence I point to how easily "hackers" slip into corporate roles.
> A postmodern/conceptual reading of queerness could state that the subversion is more integral to the concept of queerness than the actual details
I think I instinctively lean towards this definition. It reminds me of maximalist vs minimalist definitions of religion. Choose a maximalist definition and you end up including things like philosophies and political ideologies. Choose a minimalist defintion, and you end up missing out some things that are self-evidently religions. Truth is, religion is one of those "you know it when you see it" things, and maybe Queerness is too?
I'm glad it was chewy! My personal 0th law is that everyone is entitled to the best version of arguments/information possible, so I do try to be able to steelman/articulate the arguments of people I disagree with as faithfully as possible.
I can't agree with transgression being a key component of queerness, but there's an asterisk to my disagreement: I think that could be a plausible reading if we split the gay community from the queer community, but I also think that's both unlikely to happen and a terrible idea.
The reason that I disagree is because it leads to situations where a bisexual woman who's only had relationships with men is 'queerer' than a lesbian if the lesbian lives somewhere that isn't homophobic or the bisexual woman has the 'right' politics. There are also logistical problems/concerns with defining the queer community based on transgression that would prohibit the community from performing what I see as key functions of the queer community:
* Support for young queer people and queer elders, as well as disabled queer people. There are many, many issues with queer elders, for example. Transgression is often limited to people with time and independence to transgress (or for whom the trade offs aren't as severe). A community defined on transgression is necessarily one that won't support its members throughout their entire lives and will be overly weighed with the concerns of adolescents and young adults. Adolescents and young adults definitely have a place: As a group, they're the best at raising hell about things we've all accepted that actually aren't okay, and the best at reminding us that change is possible. However, they aren't the only people who have a place. I knew I was gay when I was 6 and started hanging out in queer spaces online at about that age. How transgressive could I be at six? On the flipside, how transgressive can an 84 year old man who was put in a nursing home by his homophobic kids and now can't see his lover of 30 years be if he lacks the independence to leave? Likewise, many disabled people can't work and can only collect SSI, which usually means they have to live with relatives. Sometimes those relatives are homophobic/transphobic and they can't be transgressive without risking literal death (homelessness and severe disability are not a good combination).
* The queer community has a practical role for homosexuals and trans people: Facilitating places where we can meet prospective partners is one example. As a gay woman, it's really hard to find partners out and about because...well, most people are straight. Do boring lesbians or gay men not deserve places to meet partners? Likewise, trans people deserve places they can go where they know people won't be transphobic dicks and can meet potential dates that both aren't chasers and that are respectful of their gender identity. A passing trans man with a good, boring job still needs to find a partner that won't flip at the fact that he's not cis, and disclosure in non-queer specific settings is dicey at best and dangerous at worst.
* Personally, I've noticed that communities based on transgression often turn into cults of personality, because whomever is the coolest/most outspoken/most brash sets the temperature, and anyone who objects isn't cool/punk/transgressive enough. This makes it REALLY easy for bad people to get away with things because there's no principle behind the transgression, and that means that a lot of Chesterton's fences are torn down. I'm extremely anti-authoritarian and I still agree there are certain social mores that exist for a reason: for example, the more that you shouldn't involve unconsenting people in your kinks/sex life. Have all the kinks you want, but forcing them into spaces in the name of 'transgression' without consent is bad. Or that erotic conversations shouldn't happen between minors and adults several years older than them. (I phrase it that way because obviously it's fine if a 17 year old and an 18 year old cyber, and I also, because of my 0th law, believe it's fine to provide dry, factual sexual information to minors. I specify erotic for a reason.)
Splitting the communities would solve those problems but introduce new ones:
* Splitting the gay and queer communities would put trans people who value passing and blending in into a very difficult spot. It would suck for them and I don't want things to suck for them.
* It'd create a huge logistical hurdle for trans/queer rights, since a lot of the activist infrastructure was built for the LGB and if you take out the 'let people marry who they love/have families with who they love/live with who they love' aspect of queer activism, straight cis people will relate way less and be less supportive. Most straight people can understand 'I love this person and can't be with them and that makes me sad' more than they can 'I feel a deep seated need to have a vagina/penis'. Unfortunately, relatability is a key aspect in gathering support, tactically speaking. It would be tactical/strategic suicide for the trans and queer community to decouple from the gay community.
I fully agree that hacking isn't ipso facto transgressive. It's people exploiting systems for their own purposes. Those purposes vary widely. I'm sure there are plenty of hacker types in the three letter agencies, which is about as non transgressive as you can get in that they're literally a secret authoritarian arm of the state.
You really need to work all this up into an essay and chuck it on Medium or somewhere. Honestly.
I think I'm about to present as the traditional logical-to-the-point-of absurdity HN nerd here, but:
> I think that could be a plausible reading if we split the gay community from the queer community, but I also think that's both unlikely to happen and a terrible idea.
If "Queer community" and "Gay community" are different, it is possible to separate them. Or rather belong to just one, the other, or both.
Is the difference between Q and G not, essentially, one of politics?
(Not my communities, not my country, looking in from the outside, "politics" in a very broad sense, all those caveats. I'm picking up on that one sentence because I don't think there's anything else I can disagree with - I either agree, or I don't know enough to disagree).
BTW, have you ever run across the concept of a purity spiral? I'm not a fan of the source, but I think the concept is a good spanner to add to the mental toolkit. I think it would appeal to you: https://unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a...
I've considered writing publicly, but most of the things I have to say would resulting in doxxing/harassment at best and more severe pushback at worst. (I want to say some things that all 'sides' of American power holders wouldn't like). I currently lack the emotional resilience and financial resources to withstand that, so I need to build those first. I have every intention of entering the arena somehow, but since nobody knows I exist, I have the benefit of getting to prepare myself first.
> I think I'm about to present as the traditional logical-to-the-point-of absurdity HN nerd here...
An overreliance on logic in my HN? It's more likely than you think! ;)
Logically, you would be correct, but there's specific social history and context that makes the break a very bad idea. I'd compare it to the feasibility of a nationally competitive third party in the US: It's possible in theory but in practice, extremely unlikely. (I apologize that most of my analogies rely on US specific cases; there are a few other countries I could use instead but I don't know which one you're from so I'm not sure how to adapt my content to your situation.)
In this case, the problem is that the people who are currently agitating for a separation of the two are mostly homosexuals (and a smattering of bisexuals) who are actively hostile to trans peoples' issues. This results in a situation where there can be no neutral discussion of the separation. In addition, since the queer community runs on vibes, that means that the leaders of each 'side' tend to be the loudest and most extreme, because they care the most and have the most time to devote to these feuds. Plus, pretty much all decisions/opinions in left-leaning American spaces tend to be viewed from solely a moral lens: Discussion of action from a strategic lens is almost seen as immoral. (For instance, my objection to bisexual women who are mostly attracted to women claiming the lesbian label + my objection to neopronouns are seen as moral judgements rather than a reflection of my Linguistics background meaning I prefer us to adapt our terms to what we know of how language works. This is from people who both agree and disagree with me.) Interestingly, I do see this changing slowly and I feel hopeful about that - the moral shaming and self righteousness is very online-Millennial coded and we're (I'm 36) aging out of youth culture, which means the kids are starting to push back on our stupid ideas. We seem more like busybodies than people speaking truth to power. Good.
Because of the social context behind who is leading both the 'LGB drop the T' movement as well as their enemies, instead of a clean break, we'd get a messy circular firing squad that likely would greatly damage both sides in the eyes of larger society. It would also result in both sides being used as proxies in political disputes, whereas together we're a strong enough band to stand on our own merit/advocate for our own interests. It's kind of similar to how Black Americans will never break away from the Democrats despite having a substantial religious, socially conservative contingent: There's too much benefit in getting to exercise power as a voting bloc and it's more advantageous to play along in public while socially policing/arguing among themselves in more private arenas.
tl;dr: Separating would be a Pyrrhic victory for everyone involved. So nobody will do it.
> BTW, have you ever run across the concept of a purity spiral? I'm not a fan of the source, but I think the concept is a good spanner to add to the mental toolkit. I think it would appeal to you: https://unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how-knitting-fell-into-a...
I'm very familiar. One of my more feminine traits is that I'm an irredeemably nosey gossip. I'm an aficionado of stupid Internet drama. I think purity spirals are a huge problem because they strip all resilience and principles away from people, which makes them fragile and vulnerable to outside influence and disruption. I'd much rather have a community where everybody can defend their principles rather than one that crumples upon first contact with someone who disagrees. Not to mention other types of values and moral rankings. I can make most of my arguments from a place of practicality, religious morality, tolerance/diversity, and social stability. Knowing what different audiences value is key to effective communication and defense of ideas and principles, and good Lord do most people fail on that point, right and left.
Interestingly, one of the things I greatly object to is the American-centric viewpoint/America specific social situations being extrapolated to other regions of the world and other countries. (I mention this because you said you aren't American). It's deeply offputting to me to see people who go on and on about how they're standing up for the marginalized but who also enforce American norms/ideas everywhere - it's deeply revealing of a lack of actual thought/principle and I find empty parroting repulsive.
You're almost certainly not (wrong age group) but man if you don't sound like an ex-MeFite.
IMO the kids are shaping up to be more like GenX than anything. (The kids are alright).
America's the navel of the world, culturally, militarily, financially. The rest of us just kinda have to roll downhill. It's not good or bad, it just is. And I'll take The Mouse over Pooh Jinping any day. (UK BTW). What does annoy me is that because we share a language, we get the overspill from US-targeted propaganda. We've even developed our own Sovereign Citizen movement.
> In this case, the problem is that the people who are currently agitating for a separation of the two are mostly homosexuals (and a smattering of bisexuals) who are actively hostile to trans peoples' issues.
Reminds me of the Mens' Rights, movement. Ok, yeah, in theory it's a great idea. But who wants to hang out with the kind of guys Mens Rights attracts?
I did read a lot of MeFi, actually. I'm an edge case: I'm a third generation programmer/nerd. (Maternal grandmother did punch card and C programming, paternal grandfather was a television repairman/gadget dude, both parents were hackers/programmers). So I got internet access at home extremely young: When I was 4/5. I am probably one of the youngest people to have any first-hand memories of External September, and I remember the Gen X era of the Internet pretty fondly. (It had its issues, of course, but every era does). I actually find it really amusing to watch other Millennials freak out about not being the center of the Internet anymore because none of them have experienced not being the default whereas I did, as a baby Millennial on Gen X's/the Boomers' playground.
> What does annoy me is that because we share a language, we get the overspill from US-targeted propaganda. We've even developed our own Sovereign Citizen movement.
Yeah, the Canadians are dealing with this shit too.
One thing I'm hopeful for is that as more and more politics becomes entwined with the digital world is that things might be able to balance out a bit on that front. Prior to instant communication, geography was a hurdle, but now we can have more cooperation between all the areas of the world that are overshadowed by America/neglected in online discussions. As more and more Africans, South Americans, Central Asians, etc. join the party, they can start calling us out on our self-centeredness more. Hopefully.
> Reminds me of the Mens' Rights, movement. Ok, yeah, in theory it's a great idea. But who wants to hang out with the kind of guys Mens Rights attracts?
Basically. And, like with the Men's Rights guys, both 'sides' attract people who like righteous anger and complaining more than anything tedious like 'work' or 'learning'.
